MMQ - Jay Gruden: "I would be foolish to try to turn RG3 into a pocket passer."

[Cycleans]

scrambling for a first down as I recall. No lead is safe with our defense and Griffin had to make numerous scrambles, runs or whatever to secure first downs. Those situations cause me more concern than anything.

Scrambles or designed runs? While he doesn't need to take off constantly, getting him outside the pocket would be good for him. How about some rollouts for a change, or a naked boot leg on occasion? It doesn't all have to be about option runs. Don't forget a big part of the picture is him being smarter with his runs.

But with you I agree. No reason at all Jay needs to be discussing this. He's really speaking in generalities and all it does is spark this kind of debate. Griffin will never be a Manning or Brady type pocket passer. That just isn't happening IMO. That may be all Jay is alluding too. At the end of the day you have to use the strengths he posseses, particularly if he can't move his pocket passing weakness to a strength, which I have doubts about.

 

[Dik Shuttle]

All this talk about what kind of QB RG3 is supposed to be and not one mention of one of my worst nightmares for years, Randall Cunningham? That guy had a long career. Sure he was a little bigger, and his opposition a little smaller. But for a win NOW (or really soon) gamble, RG3 is fine. Risk away. Just don't be stupid (coarch).

The template for RG3 is there. He is not unique. He is not new. He is a little different these days, but there are other examples besides Cunningham.

I know people get really scared the way he 'rag-dolls' every time he's hit. But I believe that's a technique. The languid drunk driver usually walks away from the accident. As RG3 ages in this league (if he gets that far), could we end up dubbing him 'drunken master'?

I still believe we gave up too much. And someone check me, but couldn't we have picked up Kap the year before? I was clamoring for him in that draft. Regardless, we wouldn't have needed to spend as much to trade up for him, if needed. But this is who we are now. And from his first season, I see his heart is in it; that he can exploit defenses. We need to give him a team that believes in itself.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

All this talk about what kind of QB RG3 is supposed to be and not one mention of one of my worst nightmares for years, Randall Cunningham? That guy had a long career. Sure he was a little bigger, and his opposition a little smaller. But for a win NOW (or really soon) gamble, RG3 is fine. Risk away. Just don't be stupid (coarch).

The template for RG3 is there. He is not unique. He is not new. He is a little different these days, but there are other examples besides Cunningham.

I know people get really scared the way he 'rag-dolls' every time he's hit. But I believe that's a technique. The languid drunk driver usually walks away from the accident. As RG3 ages in this league (if he gets that far), could we end up dubbing him 'drunken master'?

I still believe we gave up too much. And someone check me, but couldn't we have picked up Kap the year before? I was clamoring for him in that draft. Regardless, we wouldn't have needed to spend as much to trade up for him, if needed. But this is who we are now. And from his first season, I see his heart is in it; that he can exploit defenses. We need to give him a team that believes in itself.

We would have had to have taken Krappernick at 16th overall, or traded down again. He was taken with the 36th overall pick, or the 4th overall pick in the second round.

 

[Dik Shuttle]

Thx, Lanky.

I like that deal better than the one we got. But hopefully we'll be able to put a team around our guy & I'll eat those words.

 

[Elephant]

Thx, Lanky.

I like that deal better than the one we got. But hopefully we'll be able to put a team around our guy & I'll eat those words.

Pure specualtion...I know, but I believe (Can't remember where I heard it) that Shanahan was hoping Kap would fall to us in the 2nd so that Kyle could instill the read-option with him before Griffin was considered.


I swear the use of Beck and Grossman seems like a ploy by Shanahan to get into positon to draft Griffin.

 

[Bulldog]

Shanahan was fired because he lost on average 10 games a season over 4 years.

Is there another coach in the NFL over the same time that averaged double digit losses and is still employed?

 

[burgold]

I wonder whose memory is more damaged. Mine or some of the others that I'm reading on the board. RGIII in his rookie year did scan the field to check for multiple reads, did have good mechanics, would move to buy time to pass (the Giants' game sticks out, but there were multiple examples). I don't think the 2012 Griffin was that far removed from being a great qb that can run vs. a running qb that can throw.


The 2013 version was much more likely to take off and run when things broke down. I think he was far more concerned with being hit and so I think in his mind (maybe not even consciously) he thought running was safer. He also was horribly innaccurate. He couldn't hit wide open guys on swing passes five feet in front of him at times.


Now, the question is which is the real QB and can he unlearn some bad habits. More, how much of his problem was due to the brace, how much due to the o-line, and how much due to the Shanahans? If I'm right, 2014 will tell the tale pretty quickly.


What Gruden said was correct. You tailor your team to the skills of the player. RGIII has a beautiful long ball (or did in college and his rookie year), so you take advantage of that. That means, you better have a decent o line to give receivers time to get down field. He can move. Take advantage of that. I want to see an offense that allows him to excell. We should be looking at Steve Young, Brett Farve, McNabb, and even a young Elway. We should also be seeing where Griffin himself really shone and build on that.


Bottom line is we have someone who should be better than a simple system qb. Let's not be afraid to take advantage of it.

 

[Boone]

MMQ - Jay Gruden: "I would be foolish to try to turn RG3 into a pocket passer."

I tend to agree with your assessment as i think many have verbalized those same thoughts. I think you are wrong about our being able to draw any conclusions quickly on 2014. Fans, especially unhappy ones tend to expect immediate results and greatly underestimate the impact of new coaches, new coordinators, and new schemes. It could be several years before the majority of players, including Rg3 are comfortable with the systems put in place and we know where we really are. Folks point to teams like Philly and KC that experience overnight turnarounds, but those are the exceptions not the rule. Couple that with the likelihood that our roster will likely undergo a major overhaul and i think we'll need to be patient on all fronts. I agree that folks overstate the concerns over Griffin and seem to pretend he wasn't coming off a total knee repair in record time last year, but even if he struggles some in 2014 it doesn't mean he's not going to be a great QB.

 

[fansince62]

I wonder whose memory is more damaged. Mine or some of the others that I'm reading on the board. RGIII in his rookie year did scan the field to check for multiple reads, did have good mechanics, would move to buy time to pass (the Giants' game sticks out, but there were multiple examples). I don't think the 2012 Griffin was that far removed from being a great qb that can run vs. a running qb that can throw.


The 2013 version was much more likely to take off and run when things broke down. I think he was far more concerned with being hit and so I think in his mind (maybe not even consciously) he thought running was safer. He also was horribly innaccurate. He couldn't hit wide open guys on swing passes five feet in front of him at times. the NFL passing game is all about sequences of plays that set up opportunities - and creating options on any given play that force defenses to make choice.


Now, the question is which is the real QB and can he unlearn some bad habits. More, how much of his problem was due to the brace, how much due to the o-line, and how much due to the Shanahans? If I'm right, 2014 will tell the tale pretty quickly.


What Gruden said was correct. You tailor your team to the skills of the player. RGIII has a beautiful long ball (or did in college and his rookie year), so you take advantage of that. That means, you better have a decent o line to give receivers time to get down field. He can move. Take advantage of that. I want to see an offense that allows him to excell. We should be looking at Steve Young, Brett Farve, McNabb, and even a young Elway. We should also be seeing where Griffin himself really shone and build on that.


Bottom line is we have someone who should be better than a simple system qb. Let's not be afraid to take advantage of it.

no...the plays were designed to minimize the check downs. your memory is damaged or powers of observation somewhat limited. coaches themselves, more than once, stated they designed the scheme with the system run at Baylor - which was not a pro-style read offense with progressions - in mind.

"simple system QB" has no meaning in context. EVERY offense has a concept and scheme. Almost very play design (except ours, of course!) I am aware of has multiple options. Certainly, there are set priorities on any given play. But it's a brain dead scheme that favors one decision on any given play - especially pass plays. it would be too easy to defensively scheme otherwise.

last season was almost a complete regression for Robert. His mechanics deteriorated. his pocket presence deteriorated. his short and long passing accuracy deteriorated. his timing deteriorated. his running speed/quickness appeared to deteriorate. his ball control deteriorated. the only thing that appeared to improve was his defensiveness when running.....and even that was a work in progress with fumbling being part of the learning process.

he's a talent whose greatest asset is what lies between his ears. Gruden was brought in to get RG to the next level and beyond. let's all hope last season was a perfect storm of rushing back too quickly and behind the scenes drama with the Shanahans.

 

[fansince62]

I tend to agree with your assessment as i think many have verbalized those same thoughts. I think you are wrong about our being able to draw any conclusions quickly on 2014. Fans, especially unhappy ones tend to expect immediate results and greatly underestimate the impact of new coaches, new coordinators, and new schemes. It could be several years before the majority of players, including Rg3 are comfortable with the systems put in place and we know where we really are. Folks point to teams like Philly and KC that experience overnight turnarounds, but those are the exceptions not the rule. Couple that with the likelihood that our roster will likely undergo a major overhaul and i think we'll need to be patient on all fronts. I agree that folks overstate the concerns over Griffin and seem to pretend he wasn't coming off a total knee repair in record time last year, but even if he struggles some in 2014 it doesn't mean he's not going to be a great QB.

agree in some respects. disagree in others.

as a business...especially from the point-of-view of player contracting and longevity...the NFL is set up for short-term time horizons vis returns-on-invetsment. the days of building and sustaining dynasties are gone. cap/free agency further compresses the timeline. the money of the business itself and how it manages its key resource - the players - all compress the business model.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Anyone who really watched 2012 saw Robert going through progressions. Kyle's offensive scheme relies on pre-snap reads by BOTH the WR and the QB, which Griffin did admirably. 2013 he looked a lot different, a lot more skittish. He still made reads from time to time, but not always, and often locked into one WR. I think a LOT of that has to do with confidence in his knee, and the bulkiness of the knee brace (with a fair share going to lack of offseason preparation, but that rust should have gone away with game and practice reps). A LOT. Obviously its impossible to quantify something like that, but Burgold is right on here - Griffin is NOT the QB we saw in 2013, but more like 2012. I am very confident that an offensive mind like Gruden will take advantage of this, and Griffin will best his rookie numbers. The WCO is taylor-made for a guy like Griffin - quick throws, quick reads, followed up with deep balls...Andy Dalton's noodle arm couldn't hit half the bombs to Green that were WIDE open, and he still threw 33 TDs. If Griffin gets his confidence in the knee back? Sky is the limit, really.

 

[fansince62]

Anyone who really watched 2012 saw Robert going through progressions. Kyle's offensive scheme relies on pre-snap reads by BOTH the WR and the QB, which Griffin did admirably. 2013 he looked a lot different, a lot more skittish. He still made reads from time to time, but not always, and often locked into one WR. I think a LOT of that has to do with confidence in his knee, and the bulkiness of the knee brace (with a fair share going to lack of offseason preparation, but that rust should have gone away with game and practice reps). A LOT. Obviously its impossible to quantify something like that, but Burgold is right on here - Griffin is NOT the QB we saw in 2013, but more like 2012. I am very confident that an offensive mind like Gruden will take advantage of this, and Griffin will best his rookie numbers. The WCO is taylor-made for a guy like Griffin - quick throws, quick reads, followed up with deep balls...Andy Dalton's noodle arm couldn't hit half the bombs to Green that were WIDE open, and he still threw 33 TDs. If Griffin gets his confidence in the knee back? Sky is the limit, really.

that musty be it! holy smokes!

I guess everything the coaches stated about Baylor and deliberately designing the offense to reduce the sorts of reads that...say a Manning or Brady make...was all a smoke-screen designed to fool opposing DCs. what a clever strategy! those Shanahan's maybe deserved more credit than they received for the intelligence behind their strategies!!!

he was NFL-ready all along and the pocket issues are pure myth!!!!

It was OPDEC!!!!

any anyone who disagrees didn't "really watch"!!!!

 

[NavyDave]

The Ngata hit wasn't on a run play. It was a scramble.

So true. The low information casual fans still think that scramble was a designed run. Robert's concussion in the Falcon's game came because he waited til the last split second to get down.

Jay Gruden is wise to say he will utilize all of Robert's skill sets since that will keep opposing teams wary of designed runs which will lead to better opportunities for the receivers.

 

[Bulldog]

The bottom line though is Shanahan instituted an offense in 2012 that was designed more for short-term gratification than long-term success.

Coming off two double digit loss seasons he was not going to take the time to develop Griffin and put him in a pro offense to start.

 

[fansince62]

Gruden needs to assert himself as the one in charge from the beginning, and nip all that other nonsense in the bud. IMO.

and the whole deal with being told what his defensive staff is going to be is certainly a good start!

 

[fansince62]

So true. The low information casual fans still think that scramble was a designed run. Robert's concussion in the Falcon's game came because he waited til the last split second to get down.

Jay Gruden is wise to say he will utilize all of Robert's skill sets since that will keep opposing teams wary of designed runs which will lead to better opportunities for the receivers.

ND...other teams will have the tape. it's all computerized. they'll know by mid-season down to the inch what the play calling tendencies are.

not even sure what using Robert's skill sets means. he can pass. he can run. he is apparently talented at getting injured in major ways. on one level we know what this means...on another level...what it means in the context of Gruden's offensive philosophies is another matter.

I continue to maintain that athletic abilities aside, Robert's single greatest advantage is what lies between his ears. if he wants a long career, that's where his longevity really lies.

 

[Chris]

I wonder whose memory is more damaged. Mine or some of the others that I'm reading on the board.

no...the plays were designed to minimize the check downs. your memory is damaged or powers of observation somewhat limited.

Anyone who really watched 2012 saw Robert going through progressions.

that musty be it! holy smokes!

any anyone who disagrees didn't "really watch"!!!!

Hee hee.

Jane, you ignorant slut.

 

[Dik Shuttle]

No Dynasties? Um... New England?

 

[tshile]

seattle also has their offensive line practice blocking for a QB on scramble plays. All the time. That comes from a reporter out in seattle that appeared on an ESPN 980 show this week to discuss the team leading up for the super bowl.

 

[ntotoro]

What do SF and Seattle have that we don't have on offense?
All three teams had 2nd year qbs this year...

Technically Kaepernick is a third-year QB. Technically.

Nick