MMQ - Jay Gruden: "I would be foolish to try to turn RG3 into a pocket passer."

[Lanky Livingston]

People get hurt playing football. They are replaced by new people. How many teams that had all their picks the last two years haven't won a Super Bowl?

Robert could rupture his Achilles dropping back to pass, without getting touched.

Fate, will be what it is.

Yep. Tom Brady, pocket-passer extraordinaire, was taken out by a low hit to the knee, while pocket-passing. Peyton Manning, pocket-passer extraoirdinaire, missed most of two seasons with a broken neck, taken down while pocket-passing. It happens to the best of them! Its a rough sport.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

And you know what, we constantly hear how Griffin is this prima donna who gets special treatment and attention - and how negative the impact of that is. So stop treating him like he is exactly that. He's a football player and we should use his talents in whatever way it takes to win. I don't hear anyone saying how horrible and stupid the coaches are because they plan on rushing Alfred Morris head first into hostile defenders over and over again. Fans need to stop wringing their hands over all the horrible things that may happen. I swear we sound like rape victims at times.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner. Griffin needs to ask "how high?" when told to jump, not call a press-conference to passive-aggressively complain about how jumping will effect his knee.

 

[Goaldeje]

Thank God. Evidently Boone and FS62 switched accounts back to normal. That was weird for a while.

 

[SilentThreat]

Nobody said anything about not developing his pocket passing ability...

 

[Bulldog]

Griffin has the opportunity to be a hybrid passer. Throw from the pocket, roll out and throw on the run, and take off with the ball when there is an opening.

No, he's not going to be Manning or Luck.

But part of that is he doesn't have to be.

Steve Young for years was a guy that incorporated planned scrambles and keepers into the SF offense.

Remember his 60 yard TD run in the playoffs against Minnesota?

He only became a pocket qb in the traditional sense when he reached age 32 or 33.

Steve McNair is another successful qb that used a combination of pass and run threat to move the Titans offense.

The question is when to run and out of which formations?

I don't like the zone read because it gives the DL a free shot at the qb.

There are other ways to get him on the edge with a run/pass option.

I think that is what angered Gruffin with Mike. Mike looked at the zone read as the salvation of the offense and didn't do a good job of developing an expandable hybrid offense.

Gruden may be more creative in doing so and that I think is one of the main reasons he is here.

 

[fansince62]

Nobody said anything about not developing his pocket passing ability...

that's true. what was basically said was we're going to continue emphasizing his athleticism over developing his pure passing skills because his value proposition doesn't fall into the category of pocket passer. it would have been smarter to simply say "when we're done..RGIII is going to have thee whole package." and leave it at that.

 

[fansince62]

Griffin has the opportunity to be a hybrid passer. Throw from the pocket, roll out and throw on the run, and take off with the ball when there is an opening.

No, he's not going to be Manning or Luck.

But part of that is he doesn't have to be.

Steve Young for years was a guy that incorporated planned scrambles and keepers into the SF offense.

Remember his 60 yard TD run in the playoffs against Minnesota?

He only became a pocket qb in the traditional sense when he reached age 32 or 33.

Steve McNair is another successful qb that used a combination of pass and run threat to move the Titans offense.

The question is when to run and out of which formations?

I don't like the zone read because it gives the DL a free shot at the qb.

There are other ways to get him on the edge with a run/pass option.

I think that is what angered Gruffin with Mike. Mike looked at the zone read as the salvation of the offense and didn't do a good job of developing an expandable hybrid offense.

Gruden may be more creative in doing so and that I think is one of the main reasons he is here.

pretty good response. but...I believe the point is that RG has to learn how to be a pocket passer. he...ummm...lacks in that dept at the moment. good, excellent...we'll let time and results be the final judge. HE DOESN'T HAVE THE SKILLS NOW...and every QB should. that's the whole point.

 

[SilentThreat]

that's true. what was basically said was we're going to continue emphasizing his athleticism over developing his pure passing skills because his value proposition doesn't fall into the category of pocket passer. it would have been smarter to simply say "when we're done..RGIII is going to have thee whole package." and leave it at that.

Maybe in your eyes, but no matter what someone is going to have a problem with what he says. You could look at "when we're done...RGIII is going to be have the whole package" and say, well damn Gruden, stop inflating his ego. It's over analyzing comments...

 

[fansince62]

Maybe in your eyes, but no matter what someone is going to have a problem with what he says. You could look at "when we'ere done...RGIII is going to be have the whole package" and say, well damn Gruden, stop inflating his ego. It's over analyzing comments...

ok...that's the other component of this thread: what Gruden stated to the media. and yea, I think it was fairly stupid. or, if you prefer, I think it was ill-timed. he hasn't worked with the guy for crying out loud. he has no clue whatsoever how his system will have to adjust - which, at the end of the day, is what will happen - to exercise RG's strengths while sustaining his core offensive concepts...and keep his protege in one piece for at least 5-10 years.

 

[Boone]

Where i think Griffin really has room to grow is in running in order to throw. He seems to quickly make the decision to take off but rarely uses that initial run to buy time to look downfield and hit a now open receiver. Its either a pass or a run, but rarely is he looking to get the D to pursue and then making them pay with a downfield pass. If he could develop that skill he could be just a devastating QB imho.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

pretty good response. but...I believe the point is that RG has to learn how to be a pocket passer. he...ummm...lacks in that dept at the moment. good, excellent...we'll let time and results be the final judge. HE DOESN'T HAVE THE SKILLS NOW...and every QB should. that's the whole point.

Disagree. His knee injury clearly effected his accuracy this season; he needs to primarily get over the mental aspect of it. There is nothing he lacks as a passer (when fully healthy).

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Where i think Griffin really has room to grow is in running in order to throw. He seems to quickly make the decision to take off but rarely uses that initial run to buy time to look downfield and hit a now open receiver. Its either a pass or a run, but rarely is he looking to get the D to pursue and then making them pay with a downfield pass. If he could develop that skill he could be just a devastating QB imho.

Yeah...perfect example was 4th down for Seadderall on Sunday, when Wilson started to run, then threw the ball at the last minute 30-yards downfield for the go-ahead TD to Kearse. That was a QB play right there.

 

[Bulldog]

Griffin still has to develop skills as a drop back qb, no question.

But his other skills allow a good offensive mind to bring him along and gradually incorporate more into the offense as Robert gains experience.

There is no reason the offense can't be productive as the younger core players like Griffin, Reed, Morris, Helu and others learn their craft with the new guy.

Shanahan rode the zone read in 2012 and while it allowed the team to be productive from the start it actually worked to retard Griffin's development.

We should be in the business of developing players to win championships not merely to make it to the wildcard round with a 'fool me once' scheme.

 

[Ax]

Griffin has, does, and will continue to by time in the pocket, while keeping his eyes down field, and completing passes, instead of just tucking and running. If you haven't seen it, you haven't watched. If you don't think he does it enough, that's another matter.

He did everything some are saying now that he can't, in 2012. Accurate from the pocket, as well as on the run. Buying time, making plays, and frustrating the hell out of every team he faced. He'll do it again.

 

[stevenaa]

was by running that he has been seriously injured...twice!!! .

Scrambles or designed runs? While he doesn't need to take off constantly, getting him outside the pocket would be good for him. How about some rollouts for a change, or a naked boot leg on occasion? It doesn't all have to be about option runs. Don't forget a big part of the picture is him being smarter with his runs.

But with you I agree. No reason at all Jay needs to be discussing this. He's really speaking in generalities and all it does is spark this kind of debate. Griffin will never be a Manning or Brady type pocket passer. That just isn't happening IMO. That may be all Jay is alluding too. At the end of the day you have to use the strengths he posseses, particularly if he can't move his pocket passing weakness to a strength, which I have doubts about.

 

[Bulldog]

Yeah, but quite a number of those 2012 throws were off play action on simple two receiver routes.

It was snap, drop, throw with only an initial read to see the receiver hadn 't fallen down or run the wrong route.

I think what we are talking about here is learning to make the progressions and recognizing when to throw the ball away to avoid sacks or contact.

Mike wasn't worried about any of that in 2012 after 6-10 and 5-11 seasons with McNabb and Grossman/Beck.

He needed to get the team to a better record to validate himself.

 

[Ax]

Yeah, but quite a number of those 2012 throws were off play action on simple two receiver routes.

It was snap, drop, throw with only an initial read to see the receiver hadn 't fallen down or run the wrong route.

I think what we are talking about here is learning to make the progressions and recognizing when to throw the ball away to avoid sacks or contact.

Oh, you mean like practically every young QB that ever played in the NFL has to learn?
I swear to Buddha, you'd think sometimes the way people talk about him, he has a year or two to go before he even reaches Heath Shuler skill levels.

Don't mean you in particular, but there are way too many over analyzing, over critical, impatient, know little MMQB's, IMHO.

 

[fansince62]

Disagree. His knee injury clearly effected his accuracy this season; he needs to primarily get over the mental aspect of it. There is nothing he lacks as a passer (when fully healthy).

Opinions vary! yes...his rush back to play - not his knee - was a problem. doctors cleared him..right? coaches cleared him...right? he wasn't ready mentally or repetition wise. his mechanics were bad. maybe it was knee related. maybe it was rushing back without proper work-up to the first game. maybe it was mental. we do know this is a QB who has never been in a read type offense. not at Baylor. 2012 was set up to minimize that burden. we know he hasn't been a pocket passer. he needs to learn to survive in the NFL. sorta strikes me as common sense. no one is saying make that the only option. but he needs to learn it first. learn how to work the pocket. how to work progressions, etc., etc. the ability to run is a nice capability that provides escapability and some permutations on the play-callng strategy. but, if the design is to emphasize his run strengths, he won't last.

 

[fansince62]

Oh, you mean like practically every young QB that ever played in the NFL has to learn?
I swear to Buddha, you'd think sometimes the way people talk about him, he has a year or two to go before he even reaches Heath Shuler skill levels.

Don't mean you in particular, but there are way too many over analyzing, over critical, impatient, know little MMQB's, IMHO.

a little hyperbole..wouldn't you agree?

RGIII, we all hope, will progress. but the run first instinct leads to too many hits. pump up the o-line. do some larnin on pocket passing - what every great QB learns - and then add in the plays that take advantage of his athleticism at strategic moments.

 

[fansince62]

Scrambles or designed runs? While he doesn't need to take off constantly, getting him outside the pocket would be good for him. How about some rollouts for a change, or a naked boot leg on occasion? It doesn't all have to be about option runs. Don't forget a big part of the picture is him being smarter with his runs.

But with you I agree. No reason at all Jay needs to be discussing this. He's really speaking in generalities and all it does is spark this kind of debate. Griffin will never be a Manning or Brady type pocket passer. That just isn't happening IMO. That may be all Jay is alluding too. At the end of the day you have to use the strengths he posseses, particularly if he can't move his pocket passing weakness to a strength, which I have doubts about.

agree that an expanded repertoire would help. but, as noted before, there are trade-offs. further, do you include those plays in the playbook because ow QB weaknesses in the pocket? or do you include them as additional weapons? two different things any good DC will know how to work.