Shanahan and 2014

Boone said:

You bring up the Mcnabb pick up over and over. I didn't want him at the time, and in retrospect it was a major blunder, but no one (save Reid and Philly insiders) seemed to think Mcnabb was washed up at the time.

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Boone, with all due respect, I don't remember it that way at all. Go back and look at the message boards during that time. We all had been watching McNabb throw the ball in the dirt for 2 years before the trade. He was fat and lazy by the time we got him. The only people that thought he was going to be good for the Skins were the same pundits that said Spurrier was going to be a great nfl coach.

If it was just the McNabb trade, I might be willing to give "the pass" many in here want to give to MS. But when you combine the McNabb trade with the Brown trade, The RG3 trade, and a few other personnel moves, you wind up at 3-9 in year 4 with a whole bunch of holes in the roster.

Then you think about how MS managed RG3 at the end of last year and this year, you think about how MS actually thought John Beck was going to be his QB, and it just becomes too many blunders for a pass for me.

I was thrilled with the RG3 trade, and still am, but when you combine it with the other trades it just doesn't leave enough picks to build a roster.

Posters have mentioned other teams with older rosters having success. The difference is that the Redskins have numerous starters that are either rookies or second year players. That means several of the other players are real old.

I want a GM and coach with the patience and talent to build the roster through the draft from the ground up. Like Walsh or Johnson as BT mentioned, or like my man Bobby Beathard did with the Skins. Had MS taken that approach from day 1, he could have already had the foundation built by the time the RG3 trade happened. Those picks traded for McNabb and Brown could have been turned into starting RT and RG.

I'm with BT all the way on this 1. We have some great young talent with RG3, Morris, Garcon, Reed, and Kerrigan. I just don't trust MS at this point not to screw it all up this offseason to try to save face.

To acquire a player like RG3, and then not protect him is a fireable offense on it's own for me.

actually a LOT of people thought Mcrapp was washed up and a bad fit for what shanny likes to do, anyone who watched Philly knew that Mcrapp is a rythym passer who needs to throw the ball a LOT to be effective, Ill admit I didnt realise how stupid he was at learning new systems.

The point is that Shannahan has shown several bad tendencies. He puts his own ego over the team all the time. the way he dealt with Haynesworth was just one example of shannhans " Im the boss" attitude, and some of you lauded him for that lol. well the " im the boss" thing is fine, as long you make the right calls and shannhans failed on almost every single big name signing since he came here. he also tends to think we are "just one player away" and rolls the dice instead of actually building a team so NO I do not accept this as year two, if we are behind its because shanny buggered up.

Jammal brown- terrible decision and pretty much only shanny thought the money we gave him was a good risk, most of us knew he was great when healthy but had serious hip issues.

Chris chester- had a decent season as a back up filling in but is physically weak for an olineman, played decently for one season but has been the weakest starter aside from polumbus.

Haynesworth- bad enough he tried to force him to play nose, but then when he had the opportunity to deal him, he instead chose to "make a point" costing snyder over 30 million and the team a cap penalty, all so shanny could show everyone who the boss is.

Mcrapp- already spoke to that.

the defencive change- nuff said

these are not "hindsight is 2020" these are moves that several people said flat out were stupid but shanny knew better.

we gave up 3 number ones and a number 2 and didnt even get the number one pick. Luck is far more durable and a better fit in traditional offences, while im ok with RG3, I still think we paid too much and worse yet we did so when we were not even remotely in a place where one man is the difference for us. does anyone here really think shanny wont roll the dice instead of drafting to build a team? if you do, you havent been paying attention

Bulldog's Twin said:

We should be aiming to match the success of the Seahawks and Broncos rather than looking back to say we are better off now than with Cerrato and Zorn.

That is the bottom of the well.

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Well dang, you gotta start somewhere,right?

We didn't have the option to add one of the best Qbs of all time like Denver did. And neither Denver or Seattle had 36 mill chopped off their cap an HOUR before free agency started.

Posters here keep glossing over the cap hit like it should have made no difference to team building and I don't get how one comes to that kind of conclusion at all.

If spent wisely,that's half a defense or offense......hell,maybe a whole special teams.

If Shan does make it to draft as our coach then this HAS to be the yr offensive linemen are picked in rd's 2 and or 3. No more of this bullshit 6th rdr stuff, it has to be done.

I wholeheartedly believe a solid/younger line coupled with a sticky handed WR would put the O where it needs to be. If he goes this draft pulling the same crap then ill be done with him for sure.

DieselPwr44 said:

Well dang, you gotta start somewhere,right?

We didn't have the option to add one of the best Qbs of all time like Denver did. And neither Denver or Seattle had 36 mill chopped off their cap an HOUR before free agency started.

Posters here keep glossing over the cap hit like it should have made no difference to team building and I don't get how one comes to that kind of conclusion at all.

If spent wisely,that's half a defense or offense......hell,maybe a whole special teams.

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I don't gloss over it but I also don't give it to Shanahan as an excuse either. He could have unloaded Haynesworth for a 3rd round pick a year earlier and he didn't. He and Bruce knew they were taking a risk by doing what they did with Haynesworth and Hall. To quote my dad, "they paid their money and they took their chances." It backfired. Do I believe what happened to us is right? No, I don't. But I also won't let Mike and Bruce skate on this because they absolutely knew they might get their hands slapped. They took a chance and they lost. Why shouldn't that count against them?

As to the draft, it's should still be BPA. Only if the difference is marginal should the draft for need. Or, if the position is already filled, and deep. Which eliminates just about every position. Save QB.

Neophyte said:

I don't gloss over it but I also don't give it to Shanahan as an excuse either. He could have unloaded Haynesworth for a 3rd round pick a year earlier and he didn't. He and Bruce knew they were taking a risk by doing what they did with Haynesworth and Hall. To quote my dad, "they paid their money and they took their chances." It backfired. Do I believe what happened to us is right? No, I don't. But I also won't let Mike and Bruce skate on this because they absolutely knew they might get their hands slapped. They took a chance and they lost. Why shouldn't that count against them?

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I don't know, that sounds a little like telling a rape victim that they shouldn't have dressed so provocatively to me. What the NFL did was bullshit - and the manner in which they did it made it even worse. I would also ask why Bruce Allen gets a pass from fans because he's 'just a finance guy', but when it comes to Shanahan, he appears to be responsible for everything negative associated with the team? Seems to me that how cap issues were managed has nothing to do with Shanahan's role and would almost entirely fall on Snyder and Allen if one is inclined to blame the Redskins for the cap penalty?

Boone said:

I don't know, that sounds a little like telling a rape victim that they shouldn't have dressed so provocatively to me. What the NFL did was bullshit - and the manner in which they did it made it even worse. I would also ask why Bruce Allen gets a pass from fans because he's 'just a finance guy', but when it comes to Shanahan, he appears to be responsible for everything negative associated with the team? Seems to me that how cap issues were managed has nothing to do with Shanahan's role and would almost entirely fall on Snyder and Allen if one is inclined to blame the Redskins for the cap penalty?

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It might be akin to telling a rape victim they shouldn't have dressed so provocatively if said rape victim had then willingly gone into a prison wing housing all the rapist. Let's face it, the NFL owners club is a bunch of piranha who will eat their own. Quietly and below the surface where you can't see anything. How long have Bruce, Dan and Mike been part of the good ole boys club now? They know how things work in the NFL and you can't tell me they didn't know they were taking a chance by violating the good ole boys wink-wink, nod-nod agreement to not dump salaries in the un-capped year. They just thought they could get away with it because the NFL wouldn't risk a collusion case.

And Bruce is not getting a pass from me. He got mentioned with Shanahan twice in my above post. He is the "money guy" so he should have known. The reason I include Mike is that Bruce technically works for Mike and I don't think much happens that Mike doesn't sign off on personally. He really comes across as a total control freak to me which means he has his damn fingers in everyone's business and a decision of this magnitude would have crossed his desk for his okay. Maybe even Snyder's desk for his okay as well although I am less inclined to assume that right off like I do with Shanahan.

The buck has to stop somewhere and in the case of the current Redskins I believe that it stops on Mike's desk. That is why I drop all the negative stuff at his door. He wants all the credit so he gets...good or bad.

Stop making excuses.

The Seahawks defense is not built with all high draft picks.

Clemons was a street free agent. Michael Bennett was acquired on waivers from Tampa. Browner came from the CFL. Sherman was a middle round pick.

Where Seattle did get high picks in Earl Thomas and Bruce Irvin they came in and contributed right away.

The Redskins could have done more in 2010-2012 before the cap penalty to go out and identify younger and cheaper talent.

Instead we brought in McNabb, Brown, Atogwe, Chester, Philip Buchanon and others whose contributions were minimal.

DieselPwr44 said:

If spent wisely,that's half a defense or offense......hell,maybe a whole special teams.

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And that is my biggest rub, you still believe Shanahan is capable of spending wisely? To his credit, he found Alfred Morris, Ryan Kerrigan and Garcon was a quality acquisition. Other than that...tell me who was a wise decision? Griffin for the price we paid may be the only other one. I like Helu, but he is just a very solid backup. And our lack of depth shows in our special teams play.

Bulldog's Twin said:

Stop making excuses.

The Seahawks defense is not built with all high draft picks.

Clemons was a street free agent. Michael Bennett was acquired on waivers from Tampa. Browner came from the CFL. Sherman was a middle round pick.

Where Seattle did get high picks in Earl Thomas and Bruce Irvin they came in and contributed right away.

The Redskins could have done more in 2010-2012 before the cap penalty to go out and identify younger and cheaper talent.

Instead we brought in McNabb, Brown, Atogwe, Chester, Philip Buchanon and others whose contributions were minimal.

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This is it, I see the Seahags defense and think to myself, they have done that in the same amount of time Shanahan has kept us lower than mediocrity. And the Seahags have not done it because Pete Carroll is some sort of genius, his GM lives by this philosophy:

John Schneider GM, Seattle Seahawks, "Schneider’s philosophy is one of building through the draft while creating a competitive culture through a mix of youthful playmakers and veteran leadership. He is charged with piecing together a younger roster that will breed a sustained winning atmosphere for years to come. The signs of that philosophy have been evident during his first two years in a leading role."

I am really beginning to hate them more and more!

O.K., I'll throw my two cents in here.

I have a scenario/pipedream that occurred to me.

First, I agree Mike Shanahan has way too much say so over total football operations. Period.

I think it's likely he has veto power over Bruce Allen when it comes to player selection/finances/cap space...etc. I may be wrong but I think the decision on Haynesworth was Mike's call. Probably McNabb as well.

Here's my (weird?) idea....a triumvirate with Bruce Allen as a "true" G.M."

Leave Bruce in charge of the money without Mike's ego dangling over him like a sword of Damocles

Demote Mike to HC...just HC-not "Exec V.P. and Head of Football Operations", hire a player personnel guy and give him and Bruce veto power on player selections-(I can't help but wonder how much money it would take to lure Scott Paoli out of that NBC Sports booth.) Mike still gets input but not veto power. Bruce and the personnel guy can out vote him How could that be done? "Hey Mike, you want to avoid being fired? Here's the deal. BTW, an extension is available-performance based of course."

BTW, Mike, remember how you got fired from Denver? Want a repeat? Jim Haslett is gone-or else.

I'm probably running afoul of reality a bit here, but I like this as a plausible scenario here.

Elephant said:

And that is my biggest rub, you still believe Shanahan is capable of spending wisely? To his credit, he found Alfred Morris, Ryan Kerrigan and Garcon was a quality acquisition. Other than that...tell me who was a wise decision? Griffin for the price we paid may be the only other one. I like Helu, but he is just a very solid backup. And our lack of depth shows in our special teams play.

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He also drafted Trent Williams and Jordan Reed, both of whom appear to be quality guys. He brought in Darrell Young and converted him from LB to FB rather successfully. Bowen and Carricker were both his and while not superstars they have been quality when healthy. Perry Riley was a Shanahan pick up in the draft. He signed Forbath and Rocca (who was very solid for us prior to this season). And I think Helu is more than just a "solid backup". He is a quality change of pace back with game breaking speed.

Elephant said:

This is it, I see the Seahags defense and think to myself, they have done that in the same amount of time Shanahan has kept us lower than mediocrity. And the Seahags have not done it because Pete Carroll is some sort of genius, his GM lives by this philosophy:

John Schneider GM, Seattle Seahawks, "Schneider’s philosophy is one of building through the draft while creating a competitive culture through a mix of youthful playmakers and veteran leadership. He is charged with piecing together a younger roster that will breed a sustained winning atmosphere for years to come. The signs of that philosophy have been evident during his first two years in a leading role."

I am really beginning to hate them more and more!

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I can't argue about the Seahawks except to say that I think Carroll deserves more of the credit than you are giving him. He has created an atmosphere of competition up there and made sure there are sacred cows on that team. No roster spot is safe and secure. No starting job set in stone. Just look at last year with the QB situation. How many coaches would have handed the starting job to a 3rd rookie who many thought of as a project after spending all that money in FA for Flynn? Not many, I can tell you that.

How much different would our team be with that kind of atmosphere? Maybe some of our starters would work a bit harder while looking over their shoulder at the guy behind them. I'm thinking of Orakpo here with Jackson pushing him. Or maybe the entire interior offensive line. Maybe those second string guys would work harder to be starters if they believed that they really could earn that job? Who knows?

But that ignores the obvious question. Why keep Shanahan if his picks for defensive coordinator and special teams coordinator are so lackluster?

Remember part of talent acquisition is getting the right assistants.

Look at all the Walsh, Parcells and Gibbs assistants that were rated among the best at their jobs.

Parcells had Bellichick and Coughlin.

Walsh had Holmgren, Seifert and a host of others.

If Shanahan were fired tomorrow who would hire his assistants?

Other than Bobby Jackson, nobody else has carried their former reputations here. The development of the young backs has been very solid.

Perhaps TEs with Paulsen and then Reed.

Receivers have underachieved. Linebackers have underachieved. Defensive line is a question.

You can't really judge OL and DB because there had been such little talent to work with overall.

Doc Walker asked why Jackson and Jenkins can never get on the field for a defense that struggles to rush the passer.

When it was repeated to Shanahan he dodged the question by reiterating his sole focus is winning.

Funny, I thought that was why Walker asked the question.

He certainly doesn't want the Redskins to lose !

tr1 said:

Haslett wasn't Shanny's first choice...in fact, he was down the list.

Dan has a way of getting guys to shy away from the Skins.

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The only name I recall being mentioned alongside Haslett as under consideration at the time was Mike Zimmer. Can you point me toward any reportage of other names that pushed Has "down the list?"

As to the second part ... Shanahan was doing the DC hiring. There is no evidence I've seen that Snyder would have had any effect on what a potential defensive coordinator hire would think about coming on here. The job was to work for Mike Shanahan, not Dan Snyder.

tr1 said:

Haslett wasn't Shanny's first choice...in fact, he was down the list.

Dan has a way of getting guys to shy away from the Skins.

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I'm with Om on this. I don't remember anyone but Haslett and Zimmer even being mentioned and Zim was a question mark because he had never run a 3-4 before.

tr1 said:

Haslett wasn't Shanny's first choice...in fact, he was down the list.

Dan has a way of getting guys to shy away from the Skins.

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I call BS.

a few things

the cap penalty is directly on shannhan, we could have avoided it by trading haynesworth, instead we kept him so that shanny could show everyone who was boss. so yeah it is on him and his ego.

the only DC who was metioned besides Haslett was zimmer, who had no experience with the 3-4, and lets be honest, nobody wanted Haslett and his mediocrity, so Haslett was willing to come in, and DO WHATEVER SHANNY SAID. in the first year it was obvious to anyone with a brain that the 3-4 wasnt working, when we ran 40 fronts we had some great games against the bears and again against another team that I forget now lol, but each time we came back and ran less 40 fronts the next game. why? why would you do something less succsessfull? no coach on earth will deliberately go against whats best will they? lol

Bulldog's Twin said:

Stop making excuses.

The Seahawks defense is not built with all high draft picks.

Clemons was a street free agent. Michael Bennett was acquired on waivers from Tampa. Browner came from the CFL. Sherman was a middle round pick.

Where Seattle did get high picks in Earl Thomas and Bruce Irvin they came in and contributed right away.

The Redskins could have done more in 2010-2012 before the cap penalty to go out and identify younger and cheaper talent.

Instead we brought in McNabb, Brown, Atogwe, Chester, Philip Buchanon and others whose contributions were minimal.

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Also our team was supposedly inferior and needed more quality players and Seattle ONLY needed a franchise QB and everybody now thinks they were set otherwise right? So they still didnt try to trade up for a QB and Draft Bruce Irvin, Bobby Wagner 1-2 last year and get Wilson in the 3rd while we get RG3 and nothing for 2 years in the 1st.

That draft pretty much says all you need to know about the 2 teams and we still had them at home last year in the Playoffs. Now look. They will have home field in the NFC and Percy Harvin hasn't even played. Their receivers are nobodies yet their QB still makes them look like pro bowlers. Wilson has also been pressured 2nd most in the league the past 2 years so its not the OL either.

People can correct me if I am mistaken, but the compensation for Griffin (3 firsts and a second) exceeded what the Broncos gave up to acquire the rights to John Elway coming out of Stanford.

It appears now the Rams are going to get TWO top 6 draft picks (plus the 22nd last year and second rounder) for simply allowing the Redskins to move up 4 spots in the draft for a player the Rams had no interest in.

The only other team willing to give up that kind of compensation was Cleveland, and given their recent history of personnel moves should tell you something.