WP: The Fix is In - Beck Is The Starting QB

[Om]

My lenses aren't colored at all, Al. They're clear.

 

[servumtuum]

that's a rationalization one can apply to any QB....including John Beck. but...if it matters...I saw RG make the same mistakes last season in the Shanahan system.

let's leave it at this: we see things through different colored lenses. I KNOW RG will have good games...and bad games. I find it troubling when "having a good surrounding cast" is needed to fortify the stature of a player....especially the QB. to me...that is a signal that when things go South....and they will.....this is not the person who will be the difference maker. and who wants that for their QB?

Uh...fansince, replace this phrase " I KNOW RG will have good games", with the following "what I've seen makes me believe that RG will have good games....etc." and probably close to 90% of the contentiousness you're encountering will evaporate.

 

[Sassy Gretsch]

All this talk about Beck and Grossman is just a smoke-screen for the guy the Shannys really want: Ben Chappell. Personally, I think he is going to take us all the way.

 

[fansince62]

well......QB is not gonna be my focus area any way. I want to enjoy this rebuilding season so the lines, rbs, etc, are what I'm looking forward to watching.

 

[Elephant]

... I find it troubling when "having a good surrounding cast" is needed to fortify the stature of a player....especially the QB. to me...that is a signal that when things go South....and they will.....this is not the person who will be the difference maker. and who wants that for their QB?

Peyton Manning in his first season was horrible with a surrounding cast that lent to his terrible play. The surrounding cast got better and he ended up winning a Super bowl with a better cast.

You say that "cast of players" is a going south indicator, but it was just a beginning for Manning.

By no means am I suggesting that RG is even half, well maybe half, the talent as Manning. Just that your argument about the "cast of players" being a poor indicator of a player's worth has no merit.

 

[Dead Money]

Can't wait to see what you guys have to say if Beck does a Drew Brees impression Friday night and takes the offense up and down the field.

Actually, lemme ask it now.

If he lights it up, will you say "It's just preseason?"

What about if he sucks?

I think he'll be like he has been in practice... up and down. If he was to "light it up" I may just giggle a little. It is just preseason so yeah, that's what I'll say. Cause afterall.... it is Just preseason. He's got a ways to go and I think anyone here knows that. We will ever see it happen? Thats the question.

 

[Bulldog]

Franchise quarterback? Beck was the #3 on both Baltimore and then Washington last year.

His start Friday night is very similar to the situation we had in 2002 where Spurrier told anyone who would listen that Danny Wuerffel could run the offense at a high level in the NFL, a statement that made most people groan.

Yes, Shanahan is an NFL coach which Spurrier never proved to be. And Beck was drafted in Round 2 with the thought by more than just thhe Dolphins that despite being undersized he had some upside.

But starting QB in the very competitive NFC East?

This I have to see to believe.
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[Om]

I think everyone is taking a "see to believe" attitude, BD. Except for those who have psychic powers and have already ordained that he will Fail, of course.

I've been trying to think of a similar case of a QB so far off the radar suddenly emerging as a legit starter candidate several years into his career....where the only one really touting him as possibility was the head coach.

Tony Romo springs to mind, though it's not a perfect comparison. I do remember a whole lot of cynicism and sarcasm directed Parcell's way before Romo actually started playing and did well. It's easy to forget that in hindsight, but I remember being among the great unwashed whose initial reaction was "Tony Who? Seriously?"

Finding this all very intriguing indeed. If Beck turns out to be good, a couple of years from now few will be willing to admit they scoffed at both him and the Shanahan's back in summer of 2011. And if he turns out to be crappy, it's going to be something that follows Shanahan for the rest of his career. "He went into Year Two of his regime counting on Rex Grossman and that Beck guy? Seriously?"

We won't get definitive answers tomorrow night, of course. Beck, like anyone, is going to need some games under his belt before it's fair to pass judgment. But given all the hoopla and buildup, no matter HOW he does tomorrow night, as fans and message board people we're going to have all kind of grist for the mill.

 

[fansince62]

Franchise quarterback? Beck was the #3 on both Baltimore and then Washington last year.

His start Friday night is very similar to the situation we had in 2002 where Spurrier told anyone who would listen that Danny Wuerffel could run the offense at a high level in the NFL, a statement that made most people groan.

Yes, Shanahan is an NFL coach which Spurrier never proved to be. And Beck was drafted in Round 2 with the thought by more than just thhe Dolphins that despite being undersized he had some upside.

But starting QB in the very competitive NFC East?

This I have to see to believe.
Posted via BGO Mobile Device

RG starting QB in the NFE? bahahahahahaha. dash last. multiple sacks, picks and fumbles.

The point is we know what this retread (RG) can do. There is at least hope that JB may be our Curt Warner. Likely? nope. On the other hand......why trust the Shanahans' judgement elsewhere but not when it comes to QBs?

and, of course, you all were saying the same thing about Todd Collins...who hadn't done ANYTHING for basically 11 years!!!!!

 

[Om]

So ... what you're saying is, Beck might surprise, and you use Todd Collins' surprise emergence as an example...yet in the same paragraph still pound the "we know what Rex can do gavel" and don't see the irony?

Tell me I misunderstood you.

 

[Jimbo]

Can't wait to see what you guys have to say if Beck does a Drew Brees impression Friday night and takes the offense up and down the field.

Actually, lemme ask it now.

If he lights it up, will you say "It's just preseason?"

What about if he sucks?

This is a situation where I would absolutely LOVE for Shanahan to be right and to come out and say "I told you so" when all is said and done. Sure, I'm as skeptical as everyone else but I'm also willing to give him a chance.

You mentioned that Mike has to have some BIG cojones to go into the season with a competition between Beck and Grossman. I simply point to Marty Schottenheimer and his awesome tandem of Tony Banks and Kent Graham. Marty was able to go 8-8 with those guys, thanks to the defense and the ability to run the ball. If our defense can show they are much improved over last year and we are able to effectively run the ball and mix in some nice play-action, I see no reason why we can't be a .500 team.

Either way, I'm anxiously awaiting Friday night and hoping for the best.

 

[Elephant]

I think everyone is taking a "see to believe" attitude, BD. Except for those who have psychic powers and have already ordained that he will Fail, of course.

I am trying to maintain a wait and see attitude, for the very reason you mentioned in the latter part of your post, Shanahan's reputation is riding on this. Unfortunately, I still don't have complete trust in Shanahan based on what I have seen from Beck.

I have watched some of the tape of his college days, I have heard what "pundits" said about him coming out in a weak QB class, I have seen some of the Miami debacle and I have seen him live in practice. I just can't see anything that suggests he could be better than Rex Grossman, but I am not a Head Coach in the NFL who has won a couple Super Bowls and put QB's like Jake Plummer in a position to outperform anything we had seen prior.

So, we'll see.

 

[fansince62]

So ... what you're saying is, Beck might surprise, and you use Todd Collins' surprise emergence as an example...yet in the same paragraph still pound the "we know what Rex can do gavel" and don't see the irony?

Tell me I misunderstood you.

or maybe I'm using the same logic you all apply to assume JB will be a failure! ummm...you do love stretching analogies!!!! RG has played - a lot. Beck started 4 games as a rook on a 1-15 team and that was it. I'll go with the unkown since I already know what the known is known for.... .... knownthing much.

either way...we'll never agree. I'd rather skip pedestrian and move on....until we find champion. next!!!

 

[fansince62]

Peyton Manning in his first season was horrible with a surrounding cast that lent to his terrible play. The surrounding cast got better and he ended up winning a Super bowl with a better cast.

You say that "cast of players" is a going south indicator, but it was just a beginning for Manning.

By no means am I suggesting that RG is even half, well maybe half, the talent as Manning. Just that your argument about the "cast of players" being a poor indicator of a player's worth has no merit.

no...what I'm saying is that everyone KNEW Manning was going to be great...independent of surrounding cast. We all KNOW RG will never be great...independent of surrounding cast.

also...per previous...we know Manning can win even when the surrounding cast ISN'T top notch.

 

[Om]

or maybe I'm using the same logic you all apply to assume JB will be a failure! ummm...you do love stretching analogies!!!! RG has played - a lot. Beck started 4 games as a rook on a 1-15 team and that was it. I'll go with the unkown since I already know what the known is known for.... .... knownthing much.

either way...we'll never agree. I'd rather skip pedestrian and move on....until we find champion. next!!!

Not sure if you've noticed, brother, but I have steadfastly, all summer, stood up for the proposition that Beck is anything BUT destined for failure. I've come down all along leaning ever so gently toward the "I think he's going to surprise a helluva lot of people" side.

So don't catch me up in the daisy cutter por favor.

As to Rex....Rex has played "a lot" for the Chicago Bears. Three years ago. He has played very little for the Washington Redskins, under Mike Shanahan. And in that brief time, we have seen:

Dallas: 25 for 43, 322 yds, 4 TD, 2 INT - Moss dropped what would and should have been game winning TD pass number 5.

JAX: 19 for 39, 182 yds, 1 TD 1 INT - an actual road win against a playoff contending team. Rex was unspectacular but solid.

NYG: 26 for 44, 336 yds, 2 TD 1 INT - Skins left points on the field all night--Gano missed a chip shot early, Moss got stripped and turned it over at the Giants' 10 in the 4th...we lost to a better team by 3. Grossman had two fumbles. He also kept the team in the game and ended up with 336 yards.

All world? Hardly. But the man threw for 883 yards, 7 TD's and 4 INT's, in 3 late-season starts for a crappy team, with a battered and ineffective OL, thin WR corps and a running game led by some guy no one had ever heard or before midseason last year.

In six seasons with the Bears, his average rating was 67.0. His first three starts in Washington? 81.2.

Maybe, just maybe, with a little bit more help around him and another offseason in a system that might just prove suited to his game ... he could do at least as well? Maybe better?

Or, as you keep insisting, is the case closed and postscript written?

 

[fansince62]

1) games at the end o the season against something less than all world teams

2) you forget his stellar stint against Detroit

Ok...I give up! 31 other teams saw NO value in signing RG even as a backup.....but the Washington Redskins have magic pixy dust that will turn this peasant into Cinderella! roger that. will make for a great end of season story!!!!

 

[Om]

1) games at the end o the season against something less than all world teams

2) you forget his stellar stint against Detroit

Ok...I give up! 31 other teams saw NO value in signing RG even as a backup.....but the Washington Redskins have magic pixy dust that will turn this peasant into Cinderella! roger that. will make for a great end of season story!!!!

You really don't recognize middle ground, do you? Like politics like football, right?

Try to understand, brother. The man has a so-so pre-Redskins history. I get that. He may or may not ever turn into a "great" or even "very good" QB, here or anywhere else. I get that too.

What YOU don't get, apparently, is that sometimes the picture changes.

Players do improve over time. The situations they are IN change, sometimes leading to better results. Add to that that in the short time he's been here, all he's done in three starts is improve on his career rating by 20 points and play, if one applies ANY kind of objective standard, above average football. I posted the numbers already. Ignore them if you will, but they're there.

Then he starts the new preseason off a whole lot smoother and better than anyone here, me included, thought likely. It's okay to admit it, you know. A player you have written off and delight in putting down played a damn good half of football last Friday--preseason or not--against a team that it would have surprised no one if it came in here and throttled the Redskins like it usually does.

And yet, you stand stolidly by "he can't play." The evidence, at the very least, calls for reasonable doubt.

I know you've argued yourself into a corner at this point, though, and can't back down, so I'll leave it alone. I like you too much to turn this into something other than two buds disagreeing over one too many beers.

 

[fansince62]

You really don't recognize middle ground, do you? Like politics like football, right?

Try to understand, brother. The man has a so-so pre-Redskins history. I get that. He may or may not ever turn into a "great" or even "very good" QB, here or anywhere else. I get that too.

What YOU don't get, apparently, is that sometimes the picture changes.

Players do improve over time. The situations they are IN change, sometimes leading to better results. Add to that that in the short time he's been here, all he's done in three starts is improve on his career rating by 20 points and play, if one applies ANY kind of objective standard, above average football. I posted the numbers already. Ignore them if you will, but they're there.

Then he starts the new preseason off a whole lot smoother and better than anyone here, me included, thought likely. It's okay to admit it, you know. A player you have written off and delight in putting down played a damn good half of football last Friday--preseason or not--against a team that it would have surprised no one if it came in here and throttled the Redskins like it usually does.

And yet, you stand stolidly by "he can't play." The evidence, at the very least, calls for reasonable doubt.

I know you've argued yourself into a corner at this point, though, and can't back down, so I'll leave it alone. I like you too much to turn this into something other than two buds disagreeing over one too many beers.

nice try brotha OM! first......you are fabricating statements. I haven't said he can't play. I have registered several thoughts ranging from his documented proclivity for turn-overs, his athletic limitations and my personal aesthetic observations on his less than inspiring athleticism. Also ignored is the recognition that RG will win some games and...because of his flaws...lose games. in truth...the image I have when I think of RG is a QB who can beat the mid-tier teams but be of little service in a tight game where there is consistent pressure...say against the Iggles. It's a subtlety....but I'd prefer a QB who can be a difference maker. I don't see that in the shape of RG when playing the best teams. You all are extrapolating some stats against teams that were losers themselves last season as though that was sufficient to establish the same will happen against the Pats and Jets of the world. The obvious response is that this team won't beat the Jets, Pats..regardless. Exactly...so why waste time with RG? See if Beck can be that guy. That's all I am saying. If not.....I can focus on other things than the portly RG during what is afterall a rebuilding season.

I saw the ground being prepared by you and BT for the idea that there could be worse than RG...assuming along the way that there could not be better....even before JB had not even taken a snap. You two were already laying the groundwork. so...my immediate thought was...fine...two can play this game!

this went from "is it fixed?" to..."why RG should be the starter". it's an absurdly silly discussion to have at this point when one of the protagonists hasn't played one snap!!!

btw...middle ground is for those who take shots. I prefer the high ground.....

and finally...finally.... .... I thought politics were verboten in Sons of....

 

[Om]

Okay, Al. Glad to see you agree Rex could turn out better in this system than he was in his past.

On to the Beck Era, where none of that will matter.

 

[Boone]

I think what separates some of us in this discussion is that many of us will be ecstatic to be proven wrong and will be the first to joyfully acknowledge it, even if the guy we think was a hidden gem turns out to be an unpolishable turd.

I'll leave it up to you to decide who falls into this category.

I'd rather the Redskins be good than be 'right'. I'll warn you though...if Grossman has a Pro Bowl year and becomes an entrenched starter for years to come, I am never going to let a couple folks here forget it. Fair warning