The Biggest Disconnect , the team and fans or the team and Reality?

[fansince62]

I see where you're coming from FS but I'm not buyin it. Those are all fringe benefits for fans but not having any of those things doesn't take away from the fan experience, at least it hasn't from my perspective. Good PR? Yea probably, but necessary for the success of a franchise that has sold out since 67 and can sell out during a 4-12 campaign led by Jim Zorn and can sell out during the Spurrier years? I guess I'm old school in this regard and just don't think what we feel matters too much and certainly don't think we need to know anything other than what we pick up as fan/amateur armchair analysts. I kinda miss the old days where we DIDN'T know every little thing about the teams.

Henry has it right...if we win it doesn't matter, if we lose EVERYTHING is under the microscope.

key point there CT...fan experience. I prefer to hear what the coach is thinking/seeing. I don't need the whole picture...but I like seeing into the coach's mind and the sort of individual he is. works for me....maybe not so for others. let's leave it at that!!!

 

[Goaldeje]

Yeah. This isn't war. A little communication to the fans is a good thing. Gibbs was pretty good at that, made us as fans feel appreciated without saying a whole awful lot. How many times did he say that Redskins fans "are the greatest in the world"? I don't need to know that Shanny has a teplay script to start the game, and what those ten plays are. But no matter how you spin it, he screwed up badly several times this year. It would actually be in his best interest to involve the fans a little.

As a quick side note, I think Danny may have gotten scared with the way things ended with Zorn. Boycotts, empty seats, i think that was the first time Danny thought he was in danger of losing the fan base. Wouldn't shock me if he has a talk with Shanny at some point about lightening up just a little with communication.
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[servumtuum]

has danny even been involved with the team this year? i dont recall him saying or meddling at all..which was a relief

There was a report on the Red Zone site from Jay Glazer of FOXSports that Snyder expressed displeasure over how the McNabb benching situation was handled.

Here's the link: http://www.theredzone.org/BlogDescription/tabid/61/EntryId/13471/Redskins-owner-Snyder-unhappy-with-McNabb-fiasco/Default.aspx

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

So 2011 is the age of information entitlement as well as instant gratification? Is that it?

Do you feel entitled to know everything he's thinking, as he thinks it? Should he be up there every day telling the fans exactly what his plans are in advance? Who he plans to release. Who he plans to resign. Who he plans to target in free agency. Who he plans to draft.

Hell, why not post his playbook online so you can approve that as well!

You want it all out there, layed out for your personal consuption?

I'm just curious; is he AS HEAD COACH entitled to hold anything back?

yeah thats exactly what I said. LMAO, No what I said was constantly lying to us or misleading us is part of the reason he is under the gun. secrecy in certain aspects is overrated fansince is exactly right, I have film, I have access to more info that scouts and coaches did 20 years ago. I know when something is working or not working, Shanny lost all credibility with me when he said " I watched hours of film of this team and decided we should run a 3-4"
I call bull****, he saw Rakpo and carter at 6-4 260 apiece and thought "those guys are perfect size for OLB in a 3-4 and that fat haynesowrth guy is perfect size for a nt."

I also noticed that when things werent working at all, rather than adjust, he tried telling us " yeah it just takes a while to get it down" and then pointed to our recent better play, forgeting that recently we PUT DIFFERENT PLAYERS IN, Carter didnt suddenly get better at olb, he isnt playing it anymore.


Bottom line, it doesnt hurt anything to be truthful about the obvious, im not asking for his game plan on the games, im asking him to stop BSing about things that only make him look stupid.

 

[fansince62]

Glazer reports that Snyder may make major coaching changes however as he is not happy with the way this situation was handled.

woah..

he'd be nuts to do that.

 

[China]

Glazer reports that Snyder may make major coaching changes however as he is not happy with the way this situation was handled.

woah..

That report is also 2 weeks old. The season's been over for a couple of days now, and still no coaching shakeup. At this point Snyder has had a couple weeks to cool off and a couple of games to see that Grossman performed as well as, if not better than McNabb. Jay Glazer might have been right that Danny was surprised and upset, but I think he was purely speculating on the coaching change bit. I expect Danny will maintain his hands off posture for the time being (at least through the end of next year).

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

I think Dan knows better than to do things when hes angry lol at least I hope so, but this time next year we may all be begging him to do something.

 

[FuriousD]

key point there CT...fan experience. I prefer to hear what the coach is thinking/seeing. I don't need the whole picture...but I like seeing into the coach's mind and the sort of individual he is. works for me....maybe not so for others. let's leave it at that!!!

You should be pleased then because he stands in front of a mike 3-4 times a week and let's us know exactly what kind of a individual he is and what he's thinking . It is what it is.

After one year of his pressers, what I come away with is that he's an incredibly fierce competitor. His advesarial relationship with the media speaks volumes. He does not want to give anyone an advantage over him, whether it's on or off the field. I respect that. I want that competitive fire in my corner and I don't give a damn if he's blowing smoke to cover his tracks or mask his intentions.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

im really shocked to hear people keep saying Grossman performed better than McNabb. he won ONE game and that was an OT game that was more our D than Grossman. he put up 33 ONE time yet McNabb puts up 27 and 30 back to back weeks and its all his fault.

Mcnabb didnt exactly light the world on fire either, grossman put up points on the cowpies something Donovan didnt do.

 

[FuriousD]

Shanny lost all credibility with me when he said " I watched hours of film of this team and decided we should run a 3-4"
I call bull****, he saw Rakpo and carter at 6-4 260 apiece and thought "those guys are perfect size for OLB in a 3-4 and that fat haynesowrth guy is perfect size for a nt."

I also noticed that when things werent working at all, rather than adjust, he tried telling us " yeah it just takes a while to get it down" and then pointed to our recent better play, forgeting that recently we PUT DIFFERENT PLAYERS IN, Carter didnt suddenly get better at olb, he isnt playing it anymore.

Bottom line, it doesnt hurt anything to be truthful about the obvious, im not asking for his game plan on the games, im asking him to stop BSing about things that only make him look stupid.

I don't suppose you have a link to that quote your atributing to Shanny?

And what's wrong with 6-4 & 260lb at linebacker? One of the leagues premier pass-rushing linebackers, Demarcus Ware happens to be exactly that height and weight along with his counterpart Anthony Spencer. Clay Mathews is 6-3 & 255lbs. Lamar Woodley is 6-3 & 265lb. Looks like that happens to be perfectly reasonable for a 3-4 OLB. Not sure what your point is except of course, you don't like the 3-4. Yeah, I get it.

Fat Albert could have played any position up and down any NFL defensive line and been all-pro at it if he wasn't such a ****-for-brains. Projecting him at NT for man of his size and stature, not unreasonable. Again, not sure what your point is.

If by "adjust" you mean abandon then your right, Shanahan didn't quit on his commitment to the 3-4, as that would have been a catasrophic midseason decision but they did adjust. Haslett mentioned on a couple of ocasions when the Skins played the Colts and Packers that we spent very little time in the 3-4 alignment.

In addition, they did play better down the stretch, didn't they? Intersesting that the players notable in the improvement were players like Anthony Bryant, Adam Carriker, Kevin Barnes, Rob Jackson, who all have one thing in common. Hmmmm, what could it be?

Could it be that they have all been imersed in the 3-4 all year studying it? Could it?

COULD IT??

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

Its in one of the earliest threads from when he first signed here. about a week after he signed he started talking about, of all things defence, I remember thinking wtf, we hired you to fix the offence, the defence is fine. Much has been made about his comments about watching film of the team before being hired, frankly I call BS.

about your next point, for a guy with D in your screen name Id expect more. You just made the exact same mistake Shannahan and many other piss poor defencive coaches make, you looked at the height and weight with speed and not the skillset or the player.

simply being 6-4 and 260 and running a fast 40 doesnt make you an outside linebacker or did you simply not watch Andre carter at all this season? Did you perhaps not notice that he failed miserably at the switch? is it because he is junk? no, he is actually a very good football player, he simply isnt a linebacker. Now anyone who was a redskins fan when he was signed could have told you that, we got him for a song from San fran because they tried him at OLB for a season and he failed then too. But Shannahan knew better. We did this supposedly to free up Rak yet even with all the extra rushes, he has 2 less sacks this year than he did playing OLB in the 4-3 and moving to DE on passing downs, why is that? isnt he 6-4 and 260? MY POINT WAS OBVIOUS, a good coach looks at more than size speed ratios. Rak is another case in point, his moves are all power moves, he rarely juke steps, or just speed rushes the edge, because of this he gets held a LOT, if he made them respect the edge moves more it would be harder to hold him.

Now about AH, No he would never have been a very good NT, if you had watched the few times we used him there he was hesitant and often would choose a side but then hesitate and get washed out, he is simply not a stack and shed type player, his explosiveness comes from his legs not his upper body. We had a similiar player who actually had better bench press numbers but we cut him, at 6-6 340 montgomery was the closest thing to a nt we had but we cut him before camp. AH is a disrupter and an attack player, even when in the 4-3 we tried getting him to 2 gap too much, he needs to be an attacking 3 tech to be at the dmvp level.

when we played the colts we played a garbage amoeba defence that was a joke, it was about as unsound as it is possible to be and thank god we didnt run it again. against the packers we ran a pile of nickel because they had no running backs, against the bears we ran a lot of 4 man fronts and look what happened probably our best game as a defence?

I am not going to argue with someone who obviously hasnt bothered to do any research, this isnt extremeskins where guys can just make statements based on what they would like to be true , go read the 3-4 thread I posted and then come back and try to tell me that we got better at the end of the years BECAUSE THEY WERE IMMERSED IN THE 3-4 AND STUDYING IT.

Simple fact, EVERY SINGLE TEAM THAT MADE THE SWITCH TO THE 3-4 (BESIDES US), IMPROVED DRASTICALLY IN THEIR FIRST YEAR Period. thats EVERY SINGLE TEAM THAT MADE THE SWITCH. Btw, we looked better near the end of the year because we started playing younger guys who really want to make the team nothing more nothing less. Enthusiasm will overcome a lot.

The issues that hurt us when trying to run a 3-4 are not things you "learn out" or practice, they are fundamental flaws that wont be gone until we replace the players themselves. You wonder why I dislike the 3-4 so much? because we went from #5 to 32 and I still have to explain why this change was bad. thats sad.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

Wow..33 one time. Sign him to a Peyton deal!! He gave the ball up on average once a game and only won one game....aah forget it. I'm just repeating myself and I'm not doing that with you.
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Mike stop being a drama queen, I dont like Grossman any more than you or FS, but he was better at running this offence than Mcrapp was. would I like to see a better QB? of course, but this team has osme serious flaws and if we cant get a bluechip QB id rather build the team up by taking players who will become studs than taking a project qb just because we are desperate.

 

[CounterTrey]

Its in one of the earliest threads from when he first signed here...

I am not going to argue with someone who obviously hasnt bothered to do any research, this isnt extremeskins where guys can just make statements based on what they would like to be true , go read the 3-4 thread I posted and then come back and try to tell me that we got better at the end of the years BECAUSE THEY WERE IMMERSED IN THE 3-4 AND STUDYING IT.

Simple fact, EVERY SINGLE TEAM THAT MADE THE SWITCH TO THE 3-4 (BESIDES US), IMPROVED DRASTICALLY IN THEIR FIRST YEAR Period. thats EVERY SINGLE TEAM THAT MADE THE SWITCH. Btw, we looked better near the end of the year because we started playing younger guys who really want to make the team nothing more nothing less. Enthusiasm will overcome a lot.

The issues that hurt us when trying to run a 3-4 are not things you "learn out" or practice, they are fundamental flaws that wont be gone until we replace the players themselves. You wonder why I dislike the 3-4 so much? because we went from #5 to 32 and I still have to explain why this change was bad. thats sad.

Relax! You're gonna blow a gasket!

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

Its just irksome when someone does the research to show why something is bad and then is questioned by someone who obviously hasnt bothered to much research and is just parroting an argument. but the caps were emphasis not shouting.

 

[Goaldeje]

Wow..33 one time. Sign him to a Peyton deal!! He gave the ball up on average once a game and only won one game....aah forget it. I'm just repeating myself and I'm not doing that with you.
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Mike, I think McNabb handled himself really well here, and I wish things had turned out better. But I also think Rex runs the offense better. That doesn't make Rex the better QB, just a better fit for this system. I don't have a lot of stats to point to, it's kind of like porn, I know it when i see it, and the fact is, IMO, Rex runs things better than McNabb, at least he did those three games.

I am getting ready for a work trip or I would look it up myself, but I wonder what our third down conversion percentages were with Rex vs. McNabb? Or how long drives were comparatively for the two? It seems that McNabb was able to put up a long ball or two each game, but aside from that, was never that efficient. Rex, if memory serves, was better at sustaining drives, but perhaps (?) not as good at the long ball?

Don't have the stats on this, just going from memory.

Anyway, i don't think anyone is saying Rex is our franchise QB. Just a better fit for Kyle's offense than McNabb. Whether that is due to study habits, practice, time in the system, or whatever else is something we as fans will probably never know for sure.
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[Elephant]

Simple fact, EVERY SINGLE TEAM THAT MADE THE SWITCH TO THE 3-4 (BESIDES US), IMPROVED DRASTICALLY IN THEIR FIRST YEAR Period. thats EVERY SINGLE TEAM THAT MADE THE SWITCH. Btw, we looked better near the end of the year because we started playing younger guys who really want to make the team nothing more nothing less. Enthusiasm will overcome a lot.

The issues that hurt us when trying to run a 3-4 are not things you "learn out" or practice, they are fundamental flaws that wont be gone until we replace the players themselves. You wonder why I dislike the 3-4 so much? because we went from #5 to 32 and I still have to explain why this change was bad. thats sad.

Look, you know I agree the switch was not ideal. I don't like it, you don't like. I am not defending that!

What I will challenge is the 2 statements above. You did some work to provide us with data that showed the 3-4 switch by other teams was successful and there were some, myself included, who looked over those numbers and did not see the DRASTIC improvement you were talking about. In fact, there were some teams in the compiled data that showed no improvement or very little. I am not going to bother to go back and refute it, you will suggest I am wrong when the data is right there for you to see.

Secondly, you have mentioned this several times and I have kept my mouth shut because I did not want to get into it with you, but Shanahan/Haslett did not inherit a #5 defense!!! They inherited the #10 defense from the previous year. In Blache's last season, he went from a #5 to #10. So your suggestion that Shanahan inherited a #5 defense is wrong or that we went from #5 to # 32 under Shanahan is wrong! That's right Ryman, you are wrong! This defense went from the #10 defense in the NFL to the #31 defense under Shanahan. While this is still putrid, your numbers are wrong.

The 2010 season we were ranked #31 not 32 for the season. While this is no major difference you were wrong by saying they were #32. Here's the link:

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=OPP&offensiveStatisticCategory=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&season=2010&seasonTy

The 2009 season our defense was ranked #10:

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categoryst...gory=GAME_STATS&season=2009&seasonType=REG&ta

While your frustration for watching this team is warranted, you blast anyone who does not do their homework, when it is obvious you are wrong. If you had simply done a little homework, the numbers you provided would not have been incorrect.

Don't come back with some sort of, well it was a number 5 team in 2008 under Blache BS, we went from a #10 to #31 under Shanahan. And there is a difference between 31 and 32. See the one after the three? That indicates a number different than the one you provided. Which means you did not give the correct number, which means you were wrong. Please do not try to spin the numbers!

The numbers you provided were DEAD wrong and you need to admit you were wrong if you want to maintain any sort of credibility on this board. If not, everything you say from here on out will be mush to me.

 

[Henry]

Not that I'm as militant as Elephant, but I'd also like to point out that in terms of scoring our defense only dropped from 18th to 21st. We gave up more yards but got a lot more turnovers (where we improved from 32nd to 15th.)

I will now proceed to run quickly out of the fray.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Oh man, El and Henry are about to feel the wrath of Ryman...

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Which (I think) is what Henry was saying. Not that Torain wasn't impressive, but that his expectations as an UDFA were so low that we may be thinking he played better than he did. Had he had a breakout stud season, I would imagine Shanahan would have entertained the possibility of naming him the starter. He had a good season, not a great one. So he gets to fight for his position. AS HE SHOULD.

Henry is just saying, I think, that we should be pleased with Torain, but it's not like we found the next Clinton Portis. He is a good, not great player who can hold the position down reasonably well for us.

Good for us. Just don't get carried away.

Goaldeje, you are wise.

That is what I am saying.

Well, I don't think anyone claimed we had the next Clinton Portis and Randy Moss on the roster already, and I also think that Armstrong and Torain should have to battle for their spots. They both still have a lot to prove. And Goal - the fact that they outperformed their (un)draft position is the point!

 

[Henry]

Mike, I think McNabb handled himself really well here, and I wish things had turned out better. But I also think Rex runs the offense better. That doesn't make Rex the better QB, just a better fit for this system. I don't have a lot of stats to point to, it's kind of like porn, I know it when i see it, and the fact is, IMO, Rex runs things better than McNabb, at least he did those three games.

Yes, he seemed more comfortable in the system, but he also looked slower, smaller, incapable of throwing on the run, less comfortable in the pocket, and his arm looked particularly weak.

I am getting ready for a work trip or I would look it up myself, but I wonder what our third down conversion percentages were with Rex vs. McNabb?

On third down McNabb's passer rating was 55.8 and his first down percentage was 30.2%.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/player/splits/2010/133361

On third down Grossman's passer rating was 60.5 and his first down percentage was 31.25%.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/player/splits/2010/396159