The Biggest Disconnect , the team and fans or the team and Reality?

[Lanky Livingston]

Armstrong and Torain did very very well considering that they were undrafted free agents. But they are not players that you build a team around. They are nice complimentary players. I find it a little sad that we have to look to those two as indication that we found young talent for the future. I like them both, but in a rebuild year we should have a lot more and a lot better.

Disagree about Torain - the man had 120 yards in one quarter! The jury is definitely still out on Armstrong; I can see your view point, but I also see him consistently getting behind the defense. If he has Tom Brady or Peyton Manning (or really any QB with any kind of consistency) throwing him the ball, he'd have 12-15 TDs and 1000+ yards receiving.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Armstrong could definitely get bigger.

 

[China]

Armstrong and Torain did very very well considering that they were undrafted free agents. But they are not players that you build a team around. They are nice complimentary players. I find it a little sad that we have to look to those two as indication that we found young talent for the future. I like them both, but in a rebuild year we should have a lot more and a lot better.

The jury is definitely still out on Armstrong; I can see your view point, but I also see him consistently getting behind the defense. If he has Tom Brady or Peyton Manning (or really any QB with any kind of consistency) throwing him the ball, he'd have 12-15 TDs and 1000+ yards receiving.

As for Armstrong, I would agree that the jury is still out (receivers historically take a few years to develop, despite a few recent notable exceptions to the contrary). Although Henry I would point out that the Redskins have not had a player average more than 19 yards per reception (Armstrong averaged 19.8) in the last decade. And so what if he was an undrafted free agent (that doesn't automatically relegate him to a complimentary player), so was Miles Austin.

The last player the Redskins had that averaged more than 19 yards per reception was Albert Connell in 2000 (averaged 19.5, on 39 receptions). Oh and thanks for making me think of that piece of crap.

It remains to be seen whether he will become more like Albert Connell, who's highlight was 2000, or like Miles Austin who after averaging 21.4 yards per reception in 2008 has gone on to average 75 receptions and 1150 yards over the last two years.

 

[fansince62]

to be honest...everyone knows the reservations I had about Armstrong early on....but I love the guy! I still see some limitations on the field....but every interview with him comes off as intelligent and humorous. he has value on the field and is clearly the sort of person you want in the lockerroom...the sort of individual championship teams have to have. he's got "it"......whatever that is.

and I agree on finding a quality/franchise QB as a necessary condition for these other guys to blossom. I don't see the Torrains/Armstrongs of the world as being good enough to overcome the limitations of a QB who is only here to manage the offense.

 

[Bulldog]

Torain is a #2 back, Armstrong is a #3 receiver.

Solid finds, good players who can help you win. But they are not game breakers on their own. The team needs to find on offense the type of athletes they have drafted on defense in Landry and Orakpo.

 

[China]

The team needs to find on offense the type of athletes they have drafted on defense in Landry and Orakpo.

All the more reason the team needs to beef up its scouting department, because DT and Kelly have worked out so well. Both Landry and Orakpo were high #1s, something the Redskins don't have the luxury of using on a WR at this point. The Redskins have other pressing needs to use their #1 pick on.

 

[Bulldog]

What I am saying is that the better athletes you can put on the field who have a physical edge on the opposition, with mature coaching and a work ethic, your team is going to be that much better off.

Right now the Redskins have a talent deficit on offense. The team needs to be almost flawless on drives to score points because they don't protect well enough, the quarterback doesn't throw a threatening deep ball, and the running game produces decent results but no breakaway threats.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

What I am saying is that the better athletes you can put on the field who have a physical edge on the opposition, with mature coaching and a work ethic, your team is going to be that much better off.

Armstrong doesn't consistently get behind the defense?

 

[Lanky Livingston]

I think Armstrong is better than a 3. I think he needs to put on muscle and run routes better but for a guy who has never played in the NFL he was pretty doggone good. and if he works hard this offseason and puts on weight he will only get better.

Agreed - definitely needs some polishing for sure, but for being a UDFA, he had a nice season. 44 grabs for almost 900 yards? That's pretty nice. Only 3 TDs, but with a more consistent QB, he'd have 5-6 at least this season.

I will never understand why people talk in absolutes when it comes to Redskins players. This guy is a #3 WR - how do you know? He consistently gets behind the defense; you can't teach speed. You CAN teach route-running, technique, etc. And Armstrong is a hard worker.

 

[Bulldog]

well, Armstrong may be able to climb the ladder a bit but the program you are suggesting isn't going to end up in a finished product starting WR by next September.

We need to acquire a WR who has those physical skills and experience now and is a finished product to be the #1.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

well, Armstrong may be able to climb the ladder a bit but the program you are suggesting isn't going to end up in a finished product starting WR by next September.

We need to acquire a WR who has those physical skills and experience now and is a finished product to be the #1.

Yes, but if he improves a bit, and goes from 44 for 900 to 50-60 for 1000-1100, which is definitely in the realm of possibility, those are solid numbers.

 

[China]

We need to acquire a WR who has those physical skills and experience now and is a finished product to be the #1.

This means acquiring a #1 WR through free agency. Is there anyone in particular you have in mind?

 

[Henry]

I think you guys are missing the point. Armstrong is fine. I think he's a keeper. Maybe Torain too.

But ... pointing to a WR who catches for 870 yards or a back that put up 700 yards in ten games as proof that this team somehow has eyes on the future to build on ... It's like expecting a pat on the back for getting a C. You're SUPPOSED to find a couple middling players every year. Those aren't the guys you should be noting as the great standouts.

 

[Henry]

As for Armstrong, I would agree that the jury is still out (receivers historically take a few years to develop, despite a few recent notable exceptions to the contrary). Although Henry I would point out that the Redskins have not had a player average more than 19 yards per reception (Armstrong averaged 19.8) in the last decade. And so what if he was an undrafted free agent (that doesn't automatically relegate him to a complimentary player), so was Miles Austin.

The last player the Redskins had that averaged more than 19 yards per reception was Albert Connell in 2000 (averaged 19.5, on 39 receptions). Oh and thanks for making me think of that piece of crap.

It remains to be seen whether he will become more like Albert Connell, who's highlight was 2000, or like Miles Austin who after averaging 21.4 yards per reception in 2008 has gone on to average 75 receptions and 1150 yards over the last two years.

In Austin's first year as a full time wideout he caught 81 passes for 1300 yards and 11 TDs, went to the pro-bowl and established himself as the primary weapon in the Cowboy passing game. Also, Austin is younger than Armstrong. Armstrong is not that guy, which is kinda my point.

I don't hold being an UFA against Armstrong. I do think we lower our expectations for UFAs, so that when they do show something we think of it as more than it really is.

 

[Elephant]

larry freakin fitzgerald..

I would LOVE to see him come to Washington and he would be a FA splash that would be wise. The problem is he would likely not come to DC. There have been rumors that he wants to hook back up with Haley in KC. After the season they have had, I think KC would be a much more likely scenario for him than here. He does not strike me as the type who cares about money as much as playing competitive football and it appears KC would be more competitive in the near future.

 

[Boone]

I think you guys are missing the point. Armstrong is fine. I think he's a keeper. Maybe Torain too.

But ... pointing to a WR who catches for 850 yards or a back that put up 700 yards in ten games as proof that this team somehow has eyes on the future to build on ... It's like expecting a pat on the back for getting a C. You're SUPPOSED to find a couple middling players every year. Those aren't the guys you should be noting as the great standouts.

Henry, I love ya man, but you seriously have not been impressed by Torain? Other than the concerns about his durability, the guy has been a helluva lot more than a 'C' grade or 'middling' player this season. No, he doesn't have breakaway speed, but he's not that kind of back. He's a bruising, hit the hole hard, 'I dare you to try and bring me down' kind of a back. We need to complement him with a speed back, but he's been thoroughly impressive this year. He didn't gain 700 yards in ten games alone - he gained them on 164 carries for an average of 4.5 yards/carry. That puts him in the same company as guys named Ahmad Bradshaw, Adrian Petersen, and lots of other beyond-solid NFL RB's. He got better as the season progressed - his last 3 games averaging more than 5 yards a carry.

And he did behind a jury-rigged offensive line for most of the season.

 

[China]

In Austin's first year as a full time wideout he caught 81 passes for 1300 yards and 11 TDs, went to the pro-bowl and established himself as the primary weapon in the Cowboy passing game. Also, Austin is younger than Armstrong. Armstrong is not that guy, which is kinda my point.

I don't think we know whether Armstrong is that guy or not, which is kinda my point.

Austin has more experience and didn't break out until his fourth year in the league.

Armstrong just completed his first year in the league. He may be slightly older than Austin but doesn't have the experience. Although he's done better in his first year than Austin did in his first three years combined. It simply remains to be seen whether Armstrong improves in year two the way that Austin did from year 3 to 4. I don't expect him to break out to the extent that Austin did, as he is not as strong (unless he puts on some serious muscle in the offseason), but there's no reason he couldn't still improve. And really, if he were to improve his catches and yards by about 50% he'd be as good as any receiver we've had here in the last dozen years or so. That wouldn't be bad for an UDFA. But maybe it speaks more to how weak our WR corps has been over the last dozen years.

 

[Henry]

Henry, I love ya man, but you seriously have not been impressed by Torain? Other than the concerns about his durability, the guy has been a helluva lot more than a 'C' grade or 'middling' player this season. No, he doesn't have breakaway speed, but he's not that kind of back. He's a bruising, hit the hole hard, 'I dare you to try and bring me down' kind of a back. We need to complement him with a speed back, but he's been thoroughly impressive this year.

I think Torain would make a fine component of a RB committee. He's the banger. I think that's great. He's not Adrian Peterson, or even Clinton Portis IMHO. A Brandon Jacobs maybe.

He didn't gain 700 yards in ten games alone - he gained them on 164 carries for an average of 4.5 yards/carry. That puts him in the same company as guys named Ahmad Bradshaw, Adrian Petersen, and lots of other beyond-solid NFL RB's. He got better as the season progressed - his last 3 games averaging more than 5 yards a carry.

He's on a team that passes first to set up the run. He's on a team that is 31st in rushing attempts and 4th in passing attempts. He'd better have a nice average. Nobody ever thinks we're going to run the ball.

I'm not making this up to be a curmudgeon. I've said this for years during the Ports vs. Westbrook debates. A good runningback does more than just post a nice average. He establishes the running game. He becomes such a presence that the opposing team is forced to worry about him more than the passing game. I have not seen that from Torain. I've seen a guy with durability issues who can put up some nice runs in spots.

Again, that's fine. But he's not a guy I'd point to as a centerpiece of an offense like the aforementioned Portis.

so the fac that weve had a QB nightmare in DC is no reason either?

We didn't have a QB nightmare. For most of the season he had a pro-bowl QB who is particularly good at throwing deep balls throwing him deep balls. The 'nightmare' was brought on by the coaches, not the abilities of the QB.

And again, I'm not saying Armstrong is no good. I think he's a fine complimentary player.

and did Armstrong did what he did with less catches than Austin is proof in our favor.

Austin - 81 catches for 1320
Armstrong - 44 for 871

That just means Austin was a #1 and Armstrong was a #2.

I don't think we know whether Armstrong is that guy or not, which is kinda my point.

Austin has more experience and didn't break out until his fourth year in the league.

Armstrong just completed his first year in the league. He may be slightly older than Austin but doesn't have the experience. Although he's done better in his first year than Austin did in his first three years combined. It simply remains to be seen whether Armstrong improves in year two the way that Austin did from year 3 to 4. I don't expect him to break out to the extent that Austin did, as he is not as strong (unless he puts on some serious muscle in the offseason), but there's no reason he couldn't still improve. And really, if he were to improve his catches and yards by about 50% he'd be as good as any receiver we've had here in the last dozen years or so. That wouldn't be bad for an UDFA. But maybe it speaks more to how weak our WR corps has been over the last dozen years.

Armstrong was on the Dolphins last year. He just didn't play. Before that he was an arena guy. It's not a mark in Armstrong's favor that Austin was able to make it onto an NFL roster and stay on it for a few more years than Armstrong could before breaking out with bigger numbers than Armstrong did at an earlier age than Armstrong was.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Henry, I love ya man, but you seriously have not been impressed by Torain? Other than the concerns about his durability, the guy has been a helluva lot more than a 'C' grade or 'middling' player this season. No, he doesn't have breakaway speed, but he's not that kind of back. He's a bruising, hit the hole hard, 'I dare you to try and bring me down' kind of a back. We need to complement him with a speed back, but he's been thoroughly impressive this year. He didn't gain 700 yards in ten games alone - he gained them on 164 carries for an average of 4.5 yards/carry. That puts him in the same company as guys named Ahmad Bradshaw, Adrian Petersen, and lots of other beyond-solid NFL RB's. He got better as the season progressed - his last 3 games averaging more than 5 yards a carry.

And he did behind a jury-rigged offensive line for most of the season.

I'm with Boone here - its hard to not be impressed with Torain's running.

In Austin's first year as a full time wideout he caught 81 passes for 1300 yards and 11 TDs, went to the pro-bowl and established himself as the primary weapon in the Cowboy passing game. Also, Austin is younger than Armstrong. Armstrong is not that guy, which is kinda my point.

I don't hold being an UFA against Armstrong. I do think we lower our expectations for UFAs, so that when they do show something we think of it as more than it really is.

And in Austin's second year as a full-time wideout, he had 69 receptions for 1041 yards and 7 TDs, so he is declining in production. We've also already established the pro-bowl means nothing.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

armstrong went against number 2 and 3 CBs that pretty much says it all. we cant fall into a trap where we think our talent level is better than it is. Armstrong is a decent #2 and a great #3 but he isnt much more than that at this point. we still need a #1 reciever.