Redskins owner Snyder unhappy with McNabb fiasco

[stevenaa]

OK you are a chump.

I am a chump too, because I made a huge thread detailing why Mcnabb was a bad fit with what Shanny likes to do and then after the Houston game I was fooled into thinking Mcnabb might actually be an upgrade too lol.

I also was on the Shanny bandwagon right up until his first announcement that we would run the 3-4. No joke I actually defended his signing because the offence was so bad and he has a track record of solid to great ones. I was worried about his predilection towards finding a scapegoat on every team but I also knew we needed a disciplinarian type.

I wont be fully onside with Shanny until he either admits he was wrong about the 3-4 or actually finds some decent players to run it. Our players are very good 4-3 players but brutal at the 3-4. I dont understand how he can not see that this is killing us.

But here's the thing on the change to the 3-4. If Shanahan truly believes the 3-4 is the best defense to run, and gives him the best chance to win, he's willing to take the lumps while making the change. It would be foolish of him to try and stay with a defensive scheme he isn't confident in. So ultimately, if you believe we shouldn't have made the change to 3-4, Snyder is to blame for hiring a coach that was going to make that change. There's no question Shanahan understands the personnel issue.

Now the choice of DC is definately suspect. Haslett should have been able to get more out of this defense then he did.

 

[the Omniscient]

But here's the thing on the change to the 3-4. If Shanahan truly believes the 3-4 is the best defense to run, and gives him the best chance to win, he's willing to take the lumps while making the change.

Honestly, you are arguing with the wrong person here. You would be more productive by sucking on your big toe.

 

[SkinnedAussie]

I'm guessing we lost again?

That Top 10 pick is looking good about now.

 

[servumtuum]

I seriously hope either Glazer's dead wrong or this blows the hell over real quick.

Too many bad memories that could conjure up too many nightmarish scenarios in my imagination.

 

[the Omniscient]

I hope he is wrong as well. If there is a change in coaching, I think I will officially lose all faith in the Redskins future. I have never said that before, but I believe I will. I will still be a fan, I just do not know if I will be the same fan I am right now.

Right now, I have hope. We suck year in and year out, but I have hope. I would like to see some sort of improvement, but I think we will be set back even further if he is fired.

I think it is nice seeing a coach come in here and put his foot down. I know not everyone agrees with that, but I think this team needs it and they need it bad. We have a perception around the league as a team that will pay big for the players and allow them to relax and not perform. I think Shannahan has started to put a dent into that kind of thinking.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

But here's the thing on the change to the 3-4. If Shanahan truly believes the 3-4 is the best defense to run, and gives him the best chance to win, he's willing to take the lumps while making the change. It would be foolish of him to try and stay with a defensive scheme he isn't confident in. So ultimately, if you believe we shouldn't have made the change to 3-4, Snyder is to blame for hiring a coach that was going to make that change. There's no question Shanahan understands the personnel issue.

Now the choice of DC is definately suspect. Haslett should have been able to get more out of this defense then he did.

If Shannahan truly thinks that the 3-4 gives us the best chance to win he should be fired immediately and then punched in the face repeatedly because its rather obvious he isnt paying attention. Shanny was hired because of his well known offencive prowess, im reasonably sure he didnt say anything about being a micromanager on defence to the snyder, because if he had I dont know that the Snyder would have hired him. (maybe im giving the snyder too much credit here lol)

There is actually a huge question that Shannhan understands the personnel issue, because if he did, we wouldnt be trying to fit square pegs in round holes still on defence. Worse yet we wouldnt have to completely rebuild an entire unit on defence in the same offseason when we will be doing so on offence. WITH LIMITED DRAFT PICKS.

I dont think Shannahan has ever had to literally build a team from the ground up, if he had he wouldnt be making it harder on himself.

Lets look at what we will have available and what we know we need to spend

I will go on defence first.
we will have at most 3 players out of our front 7 return in a starting role if we expect improvement, Carriker, Fletch and Rak. leaving 4 starting spots to be filled, as we currently have no 3-4 depth capable of stepping up we will be needing to either draft of free agent fill these. in addition we will need a starter at FS and at CB that is a total of 6 new starters that are now NEEDS not wants.

Players we need to get rid of because of this and what we will get for them (likely)

Andre Carter- his value to us is that of a starting, just under probowl calibre DE and 11 sack player, what we will get if we are lucky? 5-7 round pick so a 5- 7 rounder for s guy who starts and plays well for us?

Jeremy Jarmon- young developing player we spent a third on we may if we are lucky get a 6-7th rounder for him some team will get a steal.

Gholston- a solid rotational DT we will get at best a 7th.

AH-a top defencive player in the league, we will perhaps get a 4th or lower for him, someone is gonna be laughing even more at us.

Rocky- I doubt he comes back, we lose a starting OLB and get nothing in return.

Holliday and Daniels- rotational players we will get bupkus for either of them

we will lose Rogers and will need to replace a starting corner.

We have a hole at FS, this needs to be filled.

On offence we have several needs and some wants.

WR1 we need a number one receiver badly
OG we need 2 new starting guards, this years combo is just below average
OG see above
C we are now desperate for a solid center not having had one since the hogs many of us cant remember the last time we had a good one.
RT Brown seems to be getting better slightly but he may want more money than we can give.
RB we need a speed back who fits shannys system, even with a healthy portis we will need another back.
QB- it looks like we have a placeholder, but we will need a developmental qb either next year or afterwards.

so 5 perhaps 6 starters and some depth on offence are NEEDED for this team to start looking decent.

how do we fill these spots?
we currently have
1, 2,5,6,7 round picks, if we trade the players I mentioned we will add (best case scenario) another 4, 6, 6,7.

so 3 picks in the first 4 rounds and 6 lower round picks for a total of 9 picks.

now here is where the math gets fun we have 9 picks but have 11 starting spots that realistically will need upgrading, even the biggest pollyanna doesnt think you get more than 3 starters in one draft. so do we sign a bunch of free agents? do we sign another crop of old cheap free agents or do we sign some young ones with upside who cost more?

either way expecting a team to add 11 new starters means another long year.

and no sucking a big toe doesnt help you learn anything OMni lol.

 

[the Omniscient]

No, sucking a big toe does not help

For the most part I agree with you Ryman, except, I do not think Shanny needs to be punched in the face and we will not get a thing for Jarmon. He has said that this is going to take awhile, in fact, as recently as this past Friday.

Shanny gets the benefit of the doubt from me. I will try to be patient, and I am excited if he is really going to start a true rebuilding process. Meaning, no trading away draft picks for veterans this upcoming season.

I also think Rogers re-signs and I hope that he does. I have read rumors of them talking, but they are just rumors. Really, if he leaves that is a humungous hole. I think he is way better than he gets credit for.

The one thing I find very unfortunate is Andre Carter. There is no excuse for not trading him this past off season. He was coming off double digit sacks and he was a poor fit for the 3-4, they knew this prior to changing the system. I do not think we get a thing for him now because of his lack of playing time this year. Teams know we have to cut him, they will wait for that moment.

 

[stevenaa]

If Shannahan truly thinks that the 3-4 gives us the best chance to win .....

That's not what I said, but don't let that get in the way of good anti 3-4, Shanahan rant.

He thinks the 3-4 is a better scheme than the 4-3. I don't for a minute think he or Haslett thougth we had the right personnel for the 3-4. The defensive woes IMO have less to do with the switch and more to do with Haslett. No confidence in him even if we had the right personnel for a true 3-4. I also don't buy the notion that Shanahan, Allen or Snyder really believed we'd be all that competitive this year. That was lip service to placate a restless fanbase.

"then punched in the face repeatedly because its rather obvious he isnt paying attention"

You could use a little emotional divestment.

 

[Ax]

Agree Yusuf. And I'll also say, throughout all of the drama of this season, Mcnabb has been the epitome of a class act. He strode out there as a team captain today, with no sign of attitude or animosity, hung near the coaches on the sidelines, and ignored the media hoopla surrounding his benching as far as I could tell.

That's pretty impressive in today's NFL. He deserves credit for that.

He's been paid how many millions?

Yeah, he deserves some credit, but if Haynesworth should have shut his mouth and done what the coaches told him to, and he should have, then, so should McNabb.

I HOPE we can get at least a 4th rd pick for him.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

You wrote...

But here's the thing on the change to the 3-4. If Shanahan truly believes the 3-4 is the best defense to run, and gives him the best chance to win, he's willing to take the lumps while making the change. It would be foolish of him to try and stay with a defensive scheme he isn't confident in. So ultimately, if you believe we shouldn't have made the change to 3-4, Snyder is to blame for hiring a coach that was going to make that change. There's no question Shanahan understands the personnel issue.

Now the choice of DC is definately suspect. Haslett should have been able to get more out of this defense then he did.

I wrote...
"
If Shannahan truly thinks that the 3-4 gives us the best chance to win he should be fired immediately and then punched in the face repeatedly because its rather obvious he isnt paying attention."



Then you wrote....

That's not what I said, but don't let that get in the way of good anti 3-4, Shanahan rant.

He thinks the 3-4 is a better scheme than the 4-3. I don't for a minute think he or Haslett thougth we had the right personnel for the 3-4.

Ignoring the fact that it is what you said lets go forward,
you completely missed my point, Its worse if they ran it knowing that we didnt have the personnel for it, it shows that they don't understand one of the most basic tenets of football.

You dont run a scheme based on players you dont have. period. You dont run a scheme NOW with the players you have NOW to "get better for next year". Simply because the new players you have next year will for the most part be new in the system anyway BECAUSE THE PLAYERS YOU HAVE NOW DONT FIT THE SYSTEM YOU WANT TO RUN.

BASICALLY WE ARE WASTING TIME TEACHING THIS SCHEME TO A BUNCH OF GUYS WHO WONT BE HERE NEXT YEAR and ruining the value of the guys we will need to trade as well as putting them in bad spots. Instead of playing to the strengths of the players we have here NOW we are playing to the strengths of the guys we HOPE to bring in. and that frankly makes no sense at all. Worse yet we will get little to no value for the guys we do have so its a lose/lose situation.

Do you remember us trying to run Spurriers scheme? Do you recall the "leave your Otackles on an island and hope they block the ends with no help so we can get more receivers in space" philosophy? Do you recall watching painfully as guys like Jansen and Samuels who were at one time both very solid Olinemen, looked the worst they have ever looked in their careers? do you recall us flashing in spurts against certain teams but getting killed against others until Spurrier finally saw it wouldnt work?

Thats what this is, a coach forcing a stupid system that doesnt fit on players built to do something else BECAUSE A FORM OF IT WORKED SOMEWHERE ELSE.

Omni- I dont care what he said tbh or when he said it, He doesnt know what he is talking about when it comes to defence He has proven that over and over again.

The Stats show beyond doubt, that teams making the switch to the 3-4 with the right talent, IMPROVE on defence in the first year, (not most of them ALL OF THEM EXCEPT THE TEAMS THAT FAILED THE TRANSITION) thats why teams do it. TO GET BETTER NOW not to get better next year. You dont build your scheme around players you dont have. It really is that simple.

We got worse, and not by a little bit but by a whole lot. It doesn't in fact "take time" for a defence to gell, its not like offence that way, it takes the correct talent and fitting the scheme, and WE DON'T HAVE IT. arrrrgh lol

 

[Henry]

Ryman, I completely agree that in the context of Shanahan's 'win now' philosophy that included signing McNabb the switch to the 3-4 was a terrible idea. It really doesn't instill a lot of confidence in me that he has made so many egregious errors already at the front office level, considering we are in desperate need of competence and stability there.

However, going forward, if we are truly rebuilding, 3-4 or 4-3 doesn't really matter. We'll get the personnel for it.

 

[Yusuf06]

A couple of points Ryman.

First, about the list of holes you mentioned us needing to fill. You're correct that we have few picks and lots of areas that need to be addressed. However it seems to me that you're making the mistake of thinking we have to fill all the holes on our roster. No team in the NFL is a complete team. It's the nature of parity/F.A. that they all have holes.

Therefore, the important thing for us is to figure out how to prioritize which things need fixing first. I think the answer is to fix those weaknesses that cause the most problems for multiple positions. IMHO that would mean priortizing QB, NT, and C. As we saw with Grossman yesterday, multiple positions on the offense benefit with better QB play. I also believe our 3-4 is suffering the most from not having a legit NT. The rest of the defense would look way better if that gets fixed.

As for the merits of the 3-4, I've never been a particularly big fan. However what I can say is that it does seem to have resulted in an increase in one particular thing strongly correlated to winning-turnovers. I think that single advantage of that defense is what kept us comptetive early in the season in spite of all the yardage we yielded.

Yes, you are correct that many of our players aren't ideally suited for it. However, our best defensive players, i.e. Orakpo, Landry, Hall actually are well suited for it. Those are the guys we need to put in the best position to succeed, because their success will yield the greatest return compared to some of the others.

 

[Sarge]

Ryman, I completely agree that in the context of Shanahan's 'win now' philosophy that included signing McNabb the switch to the 3-4 was a terrible idea. It really doesn't instill a lot of confidence in me that he has made so many egregious errors already at the front office level, considering we are in desperate need of competence and stability there.

However, going forward, if we are truly rebuilding, 3-4 or 4-3 doesn't really matter. We'll get the personnel for it.

We're still closer to 4-3 personnel than 3-4. And considering our need for picks for our terrible offense, I'd just as soon see the 3-4 go the way of the doo doo bird

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

Henry- Even from a long term standpoint, the 3-4 simply makes no sense, we lose everything we have invested already with minimal or no returns, on top of that we created holes where previously we had strengths (ie at DE which we arguably had one of the best set ups in the nfl with Jarmon / daniels at base end and Rak/Carter on the rush side. im not even bringing AH into the equation here even though whats happened to him regarding this was even more huge. by adding holes that werent their we have made it tougher to fill the obvious holes, I just dont see the upside.


Yusuf , very good point, we need to prioritise what holes to fill, somewhat like we have for the past decade. Good teams dont do that ,Good teams build on their strengths and fill weaknesses. we have effectively done the opposite. if we had stayed with the 4-3 we would have 2 holes to fill on defence along of course with adding depth, a hole at Sam and at FS. Scheme is the easiest thing to change not personnel and thats why most teams that make this change are better right off the bat.

How a genius like Shanny couldnt see that or the benefit of having a great defence in place already (but for a few pieces)is beyond me. Also your point about the turnovers this season is valid, but you are buying that the turnovers are the result of the switch and not a combination of unsound football and aggression. We could have easily gotten more turnovers without dropping our overall ranking to dead last, simply by ramping up the aggression of our scheme not all 4-3 schemes are like Blaches. This season we have seen that when you catch teams off guard by playing unsound, you will get turnovers, right up until they have time to scheme and watch film, and then you get hammered out by well coached teams.

even lackinga great 3 tech as we are now, we are still far more suited to the 4-3 and I have to say the added holes are adding at least another season to any rebuild.

 

[stevenaa]

However, going forward, if we are truly rebuilding, 3-4 or 4-3 doesn't really matter. We'll get the personnel for it.

That's pretty much my point on the personnel, only I believe we've been rebuilding from the start, so it hasn't mattered all season. McNabb was still an upgrade from JC and I'd guess the thinking was he'd get us a few more wins and not have the season completely stink. The big failure, IMO, was not just being forthright about the state of the team and the direction.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

That's pretty much my point on the personnel, only I believe we've been rebuilding from the start, so it hasn't mattered all season. McNabb was still an upgrade from JC and I'd guess the thinking was he'd get us a few more wins and not have the season completely stink. The big failure, IMO, was not just being forthright about the state of the team and the direction.

I dont understand that line of thinking at all Steven, as I said, you dont run a system this year for next years players, thats not how defence works.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

Im stunned that they not only bench McNabb but then make him go out there for the coin flip. If I was him I would have told both of them to go **** themselves.

what would have been worse? letting him go out for the coin toss as a captain despite being benched or removing his captaincy on top of benching him? honestly im curious, it seems to be damned if they do and damned if they dont.

I dont like that he took starters reps all week and found out about being benched via the media, thats not just disrespectful but stupid.

 

[stevenaa]

I dont understand that line of thinking at all Steven, as I said, you dont run a system this year for next years players, thats not how defence works.

Some of this years players will be here next year and will have a year in the system, regardless of how bad it faired this year. I understand your point, but it is only really valid if you felt we had a reasonable chance to compete this year. I never thought we did. Too much broken from too many years of horrible personnel decisions.

We either want a blow up and rebuild or we want to flounder along continually. No better time than a blow up to retool the defensive scheme if desired. Not debating the merits of the 3-4 over the 4-3, I just don't have a problem making a whole sale change considering where we are.

 

[fansince62]

Im stunned that they not only bench McNabb but then make him go out there for the coin flip. If I was him I would have told both of them to go **** themselves.

same reaction BMItch nd the NFL Today guys had.

 

[fansince62]

That's pretty much my point on the personnel, only I believe we've been rebuilding from the start, so it hasn't mattered all season. McNabb was still an upgrade from JC and I'd guess the thinking was he'd get us a few more wins and not have the season completely stink. The big failure, IMO, was not just being forthright about the state of the team and the direction.

are you sure? they have so many holes what they have effectively done is stretch out the transition/rebuild (take your pick) a year or more.