Redskins Insider: Who belongs on the Redskins’ Mount Rushmore?

George Allen was a very good coach.

Joe Gibbs was a great coach.
 
Burgundy Burner said:
George Allen was a very good coach.

Joe Gibbs was a great coach.
Click to expand...

BB, I wasn't saying Allen=Gibbs.

I was saying Allen>Hanburger.

Besides I interpret being on the Redskins Mt. Rushmore as being the four most influential-without ranking them within that context.
 
Hanburger was on the team from 1965 to 1978. You can make a case for another player - there are many to choose from and all are worthy.

George Allen coached the Redskins from 1971 to 1977. He never won a SB.

Coach Gibbs was with the team from 1981 to 1992 and 2004 to 2007. He is still President/Special Advisor for the team. He won three SBs.

The difference between the two coaches is monumental and there is no way that anyone can put both on this ceremonious structure.
 
CounterTrey said:
Gibbs
Riggo
Sonny
Sammy
Click to expand...

I kinda like this list here. Although I think an argument could be easily made for Green over Riggo. I think in terms of ambassador for the team in addition to career, Sonny stands pretty much alone. Others I think an argument could be made for would be three career (or near-career in one case) Redskins who stood out for me - Bobby Mitchell, Charley Taylor and Art Monk. Hanburger is up there, but then I'd put George Allen up or above him. Bugel was huge, but I don't think he or any of the hogs would be on this particular mountain. Sean Taylor, Portis...any of those guys.....nope. Not in the hall and too short a career with the team.

One guy who, had he lived and been with the team longer, I think we'd all be putting on the mountain for changing the course of the franchise...would be none other than Vince Lombardi. Had he been given the time, I have a suspicion that people wouldn't necessarily be talking of him solely as the Packers legend....but ours as well. Just a hunch.
 
Oh, and there's one guy who's kind of a polarizing character....and he's not in the Hall.....and I wouldn't put on this mountain....but I've met him once and the thing that struck me most was that he, at least in my opinion, is nearly as much an ambassador as Sonny is for the team (and for football in general), and that is Joe Theisman. He may not your be your favorite player, but I feel that he really did play a role in changing the course of the team and following his career in promoting the team. Worth a mention....not for the mountain, but simply as someone I feel has played a pivotal role in our favorite team's direction. Many of you may not agree, I realize, but I felt it was worth putting out there.

And with that post.....so goes my credibility. ;-)
 
Burgundy Burner said:
Hanburger was on the team from 1965 to 1978. You can make a case for another player - there are many to choose from and all are worthy.

George Allen coached the Redskins from 1971 to 1977. He never won a SB.

Coach Gibbs was with the team from 1981 to 1992 and 2004 to 2007. He is still President/Special Advisor for the team. He won three SBs.

The difference between the two coaches is monumental and there is no way that anyone can put both on this ceremonious structure.
Click to expand...

Yes there is, BB.

George Allen inherited a team that had a 115 win versus 185 loss 26 year stretch without even being in the playoffs once. Taking that team to a 58 win versus 30 loss six season stretch is not only a major coaching accomplishment it changes the entire face of the franchise and how the team views itself-that is a serious change of direction.

Joe Gibbs is one of the greatest coaches in the history of the NFL. That's a given, alright?

He inherited a team that had a three year record of 24-24. He had a front office that was both competent and capable (unlike Gibbs II which I'll get to in a moment). In his stable of tools to work with upon his arrival were Art Monk, John Riggins, Joe Theisman, Ricky Tompson, Clarence Harmon, Benny Malone,...I could name a few others, and a defense that had had its foundation and direction set by Allen.

Could any other coach have done what Gibbs did with this? Probably not...ever. Like I said he was a great coach-but every great coach is ultimately dependent upon the support structure of the team situation he is in. That's why Gibbs II didn't work-a hideous s**tpile of a front office and, I'm practically convinced that he did not have the final say in decisions that had he had them the Redskins recent past would be much prettier than it turned out to be.

All this comes back around to why I think both Gibbs and Allen belong in this momument. Turning a team around that has an entire generation grow up accustomed to failure and mediocrity-the Redskins after WWII up to George Allen-is a seldom seen event and the lasting affect on the team and its fans is why I consider George Allen worthy of this.
 
My problem with putting Allen on there is not his coaching, which he was great at, it's his handling of the draft and young players. He left the cupboard bare for Jack Pardee and we went from 1971 until 1980 without a draft pick above the 4th round. That is 10 years without a 1st, 2nd or 3rd round selection and we only had two 4th round selections in that time. Hell, in the 1972 draft our first pick was in the 8th round which means that in terms of today's draft we would have picked at all. Think about that for a minute.

Here is a list of our first picks over that time fram:

1972 - 8th round
1973 - 5th round
1974 - 6th round
1975 - 5th round
1976 - 5th round
1977 - 4th round
1978 - 6th round
1979 - 4th round

That is just unconscionable to me and keeps Allen out of the running for anything like a Mt Rushmore of Redskins players/coaches/front office people.
 
So what? Our team still did better during that time than many teams with all their draft picks.

It also appears that the lack of so many upper round picks didn't set the team back the "decades" many throw around when a team doesn't keep all it's upper choices. Not fair to apply today's draft importance, and strategies, on yesteryear, either.

And, like serv so aptly pointed out, he brought respectability, and winning, back to a lost franchise. Along with Riggins, Theismann, Butz, and others, who played pivotal roles in Gibbs success. It's not like he got nothing for those picks.
 
What? No Dan Snyder?
 
This is an interesting question based on how it's phrased. The key line for me is "most important" person. In some ways, other than Sammy Baugh, is there a player who can truly be considered one of the 4 most important people in the history of the Redskins?

Focusing on "most important", I'd say the following:

George Preston Marshall-founder of the franchise and brought the Redskins to DC. Can't get much more important than that.

Sammy Baugh-A star beyond the NFL back in the day. Changed the way the game was played. Only Redskin who has to be on any list, if that list is to be taken seriously, of the 10 greatest players in the history of the NFL.

George Allen-turned a franchise who was a bottom feeder into a winner. He transformed what it meant to be a Washington Redskin. The franchise was a joke before him and he changed that culture.

Bobby Beathard-he managed to build a champion with very little. He built the 80's Redskins. After he left, the team started the decline. Yes they won the Super Bowl in 1991, but look at that team. The best players were brought here by Beathard. Gibbs/Casserly filled it in a little with Plan B free agents as stop gaps but the long term health of the franchise was in poor hands.
 
Immediate disqualification of George Preston Marshall for being a scumbag racist. I know *I* don't want someone like that being a literal face of the franchise.
 
Baugh, Gibbs, Green, Monk.
We'll add RGIII when we get our next Lombardi.
Hail!
 
Back to Allen.

For all the sniveling our fans have done over the past 15 years, emphasis on the last 7-10, with whinings of "laughing stock", "ineptitude", and the designation of being "cursed", the poor bastards who rooted for our team for twenty years before Allen suffered as much, if not more.

I'm sure they also believed they were "cursed". The hiring of Vince Lombardi, who produced a winning season, with the promise of more to follow, seemed to break the curse. Only to have the notion reinforced by his passing. Talk about having the rug pulled out from under you.

The year after he died saw things return to usual. Losing.

All hope was lost, again.

George came in and immediately turned this franchise around, and set it on the course it still clings to, to this day. A proud, storied winner.

We've been damn lucky to be Redskins fans.
 
Ax said:
So what? Our team still did better during that time than many teams with all their draft picks.

It also appears that the lack of so many upper round picks didn't set the team back the "decades" many throw around when a team doesn't keep all it's upper choices. Not fair to apply today's draft importance, and strategies, on yesteryear, either.

And, like serv so aptly pointed out, he brought respectability, and winning, back to a lost franchise. Along with Riggins, Theismann, Butz, and others, who played pivotal roles in Gibbs success. It's not like he got nothing for those picks.
Click to expand...

The marquee teams of the time were the Steelers, Cowboys and Dolphins. How were those teams built again, Ax? Oh yeah...mostly through the draft. We were respectable, sure. But we didn't win any championships and we spent a lot of that decade as the second fiddle to Dallas in our own division.

The truth of the matter is that building a winner through the draft is not new. It has been the way to do it all along in the NFL. Sure, Allen brought in some pieces that would play a big part in Gibbs early winning teams...Riggins, Joey and Butz chief among them. But most of those teams were built through the draft by Beathard. The whole of the offensive line, the linebackers, the receivers, the defensive ends...all Bobby Beathard and the draft or as UDFA gems that only Beathard seemed to know how to find back then.

Yeah, we were respectable under Allen. How much more dominant might we have been under Gibbs if we had gotten to pick in the first, second and third rounds of 78 and 79?
 
Neophyte said:
Sure, Allen brought in some pieces that would play a big part in Gibbs early winning teams...Riggins, Joey and Butz chief among them. But most of those teams were built through the draft by Beathard. The whole of the offensive line, the linebackers, the receivers, the defensive ends...all Bobby Beathard and the draft or as UDFA gems that only Beathard seemed to know how to find back then.
Click to expand...
George Stark, original Hog, drafted by Allen, in the 11th round. ;)

And, I'm trying to poopoo the draft here. Pointing out that what Allen accomplished was crazy good. And worthy of consideration for the mythical "Mt Rushmore".

Yeah, we were respectable under Allen. How much more dominant might we have been under Gibbs if we had gotten to pick in the first, second and third rounds of 78 and 79?
Click to expand...
Now way to no. He might have traded more next years 1st's, for this years 2nd's, and drafted him some Ryan Leaf's, Tory Nixon's, Paul Koch's, and Walter Murray's. Neither of us can say.

No question, Joe Gibbs is #1 All-time Redskins coach, by a mile.
Then, it's George Allen, by another mile.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 1, Members: 0, Guests: 1)

Help Users

You haven't joined any rooms.

    You haven't joined any rooms.
    Top