Haskins - Going Forward

[Boone]

I was pretty hard on Dwayne during the game. He made some absolutely unacceptable decisions with the ball. Not only did he stare down receivers but made 3 extremely ill-advised throws in critical situations with receivers well-covered. In addition to those poor decisions, on several occasions, instead of just getting down and protecting the football, he allowed the Browns defenders to go after it and strip it when the play clearly had no chance of success and the pocket had completely broken down. He also struggled to hit RBs on short passes accurately today and was generally inaccurate with his passes overall.

It wasn't all bad. Haskins has an impressive arm and even when under duress, has the ability to get a ball to a target with velocity from almost any position on the field. He had some eye-popping completions. He also, even in the midst of a mostly terrible day, keeps his composure and has a short memory. A reporter post-game asked Haskins what he was thinking about on the sidelines as he stared at the field after throwing yet another pick. 'I wanted to get the ball back and to get back out there'. That's the kind of mindset you want a young QB to have (or any QB for that matter). A bad throw or INT happens. There is literally zero benefit wallowing in a negative event. He seems to have the ability to shrug it off and get back to the task at hand.

Haskins started better today than he has in previous games. And even after giving up two INTs, Haskins came out and lead the offense to take the lead back in the 3rd quarter.

It would be easy to bench the kid. He certainly made enough bad decisions today to warrant it. But as SilentThreat and others have argued, we have to find out what we have in Haskins this year, and if that means having him struggle, even mightily at times, to do that, then that's what we will have to weather as fans. There is no doubt in my mind that Kyle Allen would've won the game we played today. Right now - he's a better QB in this offense than Haskins is. Period. But we didn't spend a 1st round draft pick on Allen, and we absolutely have to give Haskins every chance to show that he can in fact be the guy under center for years to come. Or that he can't. There will be more days like today before the season is over. But there may be some great days where we see progress and evolution too. It remains to be seen. Ultimately, if you bring in a HC like Ron Rivera, you have to trust he knows what he's doing and will make the final assessment on Haskins when the appropriate time comes.

I said in the chatroom that I had very specific things I wanted to hear from Haskins after today's ugly performance. Listening to the post-game presser, I heard all of them. Haskins knows he stunk it up today. He admitted he was 'trying to get it all back' after penalties, sacks, or 3rd and longs and that he has to learn to take what is there and not try and do more than the situation calls for. I saw and heard humility. He knows he has to do better. He knows that the only way he can and will get better is to take both the positives and the negatives from a given Sunday, and learn from them. And he is grateful that his teammates and his coaches 'have his back' but that ultimately, it comes down to performance on the field.

Rivera clearly stated in his post-game comments, he is committed to Dwayne and supporting him and to helping him be successful. He and Haskins spoke immediately after the game, and all of that was about support, and continuing to work, and improve, and to progress as a young QB and young team.

I don't know if Dwayne Haskins Jr. can be a great or even very good QB. But he wouldn't be the first QB in NFL history to look awful at times and struggle mightily early on, only to become a top tier QB with more experience.

Me? I hate losing. And I've watched my team do a lot of it in recent years. I'm frigging tired of depressing Sunday evenings. But that's not on Dwayne Haskins. I'm doing what any smart fan does after the testosterone (or estrogen) calms down and the post-game anger and disappointment subsides. I'm going to take a heaping helping of chill pills and remember that this is a rebuilding team, with a new offense, defense, coaches, and a very young group of players. And I'll keep watching.

Who knows - maybe this time, perhaps a little bit further down the road than I'd prefer, things will work out. It could happen - at least theoretically

 

[ntotoro]

His problems have nothing to do w9th NFL status or even the playbook. They’re much more fundamental. He stared down three pickles today. His mechanics are awful. Dreadful, really. Throwing off his back foot, throwing without setting even with protection... then he says post-game he didn’t sense himself staring down those INT’s. Well, the cameras and the DB’s did. He has zero awareness.

Never, ever, ever, ever again allow Dan Snyder to have personnel decisions, especially at the QB position. Every time is a fail, whether George, Griffin, Haskins, McNabb, Grossman... I don’t care who.

 

[Boone]

I hear all that (although we STILL don't really know how much influence Dan Snyder had on the Haskins pick - most of that is rumor-based). But I also think it misses the point. There are a number of QBs who turned out to be damned good ones who looked like absolute shit early on. Aikman was terrible. Peyton Manning threw so many INTs he's lucky he got back on the field his 2nd season. I'm guessing those included ones where they threw into triple coverage, tried to fit the ball into windows that weren't there, and even stared down the receiver.

That doesn't mean Haskins is either of those guys. Hell, he may not be Rex Grossman But it does mean, doing those stupid things isn't proof he will never be good.

And given that he literally started one college football season, we should maybe expect him to be having issues especially early on. I have faith that if at year's end, Rivera and Scott Turner don't feel he's 'getting there' and if we aren't seeing major progress, they will move forward with a different plan.

 

[ntotoro]

I don’t recall Manning or Aikman saying they didn’t feel like they were making mistakes when it was obvious to anyone with eyes what they were doing. Haskins literally said on TV after the game that he didn’t feel he was staring down receivers. You have to realize there’s a problem before it can be fixed.

 

[Boone]

He took plenty of responsibility and repeatedly owned his mistakes. Yeah, he did say he didn’t feel like he was staring down WRs but he absolutely admitted mistakes. I’m sure whatever errors or poor execution he had are not going to escape the attention of the coaches and will be discussed The point is - we all want to declare we know what Haskins ceiling is - and I’m skeptical any of us really do.

I’m not an apologist for the kid or predicting he will shut us all up with a HOF career. But these kinds of games should be expected from a young, inexperienced QB. During the game, I mentioned I would have benched him after he threw the terrible ball that resulted in his 3rd interception. No excuse for making that throw. Let Allen finish the game and allow him to think about it from the sidelines. But I get Rivera's approach of making him work through the bad days and try to learn from them.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

two words David Carr. big time prospect,. huge arm got shellshocked and never recovered


we wont know what we have with haskins because he has no time. we cant protect him even half assedly

this is why I said over and over we cannot draft a qb until we at least have a decent line in front of him, because all the mistakes you see young qbs make, get made worse by lack of time. . young qbs will start developing terrible habits when under pressure., they start ewither trowing too soon, or holding the ball too long, they start staring down receivers because they want to get the ball away faster and think that helps them read the covereage better. they stop setting their feet because when your feet are set hits hurt more.

Haskins probably wont get much better than we have seen, he has a big arm, he has decent touch, and he isnt stupid, but he is getting bad habits and has no safety blanket or protection both of which always lead to bad things.

Drafting all the first round qbs in the world is just wasted picks until we have an at least average line to protect him. we have a well below average line and thats being generous.

 

[Boone]

I think you make a lot of good points there Ryman, I would just point out is not a one and done proposition. I don't know why they didn't focus more on OL in the draft and in FA but maybe they wanted a full season of observing the guys on the roster to make final assessments. I think we could see a big chunk of our resources over the next 2 seasons committed to OL. I don't think Haskins is going to be permanently scarred if it takes a few seasons to get that shored up. I agree it doesn't make it easier on him, but on the other hand, he wasn't under a huge amount of pressure on the picks today, nor does a crappy line lead him to not throw the ball away when there's nothing there. I chalk those things up more to plain old inexperience.

 

[Knightingale]

Okay, so here's where I am on Haskins...

I'm no QB coach, but even to my untrained eye it looks like he's pushing to throw too fast. Even when he seems to have time, he sometimes doesn't look to me like he sets right. I heard tell that in College he got by on his arm strength and lacked the proper technique, so maybe if that's true we're seeing residual traces of that here. He only had 1 college year (if I remember correctly) and has only 10 games as an NFL QB. I'm kind of with Rivera on this one, he's going to need time and help to put it all together and be an NFL QB, and there's going to be some real ugly games as we take our lumps with him.

Having an awful OLine and being think on weapons doesn't help one bit either. It's like expecting this kid to become a franchise QB so fast while tying one hand behind his back.

What I like about Haskins though, is the intangibles.

Look at our recent history. With Griffin, I always had this feeling he was a one trick pony and brittle after that first season. You also heard too many rumours about him not having the team support for them to be simply mist rather than smoke.
Kirk Cousins never felt like the kind of QB that would lead a team to me. He'd put up big stats, but after being exposed to him for a while, you saw the teams he led simply quit too many times. I think that this was also a Gruden thing to be honets though in hindsight.

Alex Smith, just seemed like a professional leader. HE wasn't lighting up the stats column, but he was the first QB we'd had for a while that instilled some sense of confidence that we COULD win a game even if we got behind. It was also clear that he had the respect of the team.

Haskins is early in his career, but what I really like about him is the fact that this offense doesn't quit under him. Even when we're down big he always seems composed.
He seems to accept his mistakes too. Yes, it was clear he was staring down his recievers, but in his press conference he never said he WASN'T staring them down, he said he didn't FEEL like he did. I do wonder if that view will change when he reviews the game tape. Even after the bad interceptions, he came back to lead the team to scores and had the team leading in the 3rd qtr before more mistakes.

The other question here, is... over 3 games he has 3 interceptions. He went 0, 0, 3... Which of these is the norm? Will we be looking at regular multi interception games? Or will he protect the ball better like in the previous 2?
Was this an anomoly or simply a return to the mean?

I mean, look at the stats. The QB's with MORE interceptions over 3 weeks...

Cousins & Wentz (6) Murray (5) Darnold & Jones (4) - Murray and Jones are interesting cases as they are Haskins draft mates AND have more experience. Yet both have more interceptions.

Then you have the other QB's on 3 - BRADY! Rivers, Fitzpatrick, Minshew, Watson, Trubisky.

So it's not like he isn't in esteemed company. Also, to get on par with those guys took Haskins just 1 bad game.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that I'm trying to look at Dwayne with a sense of global perspective. I'm on board for him playing out the year to be honest. Spend the off season giving him some more weapons and shoring up that line. Take our lumps, see if we can fix some of those fundamentals it looks like he was never truly taught. Hope that his first two games this season are more indicative of his ball protection skills, rather than the Browns game. Hope that he starts putting more Qtr's together like the 1st and 3rd, where he can get the ball moving and score, and less of teh 2nd and 4th qtr where he shoots us in the foot.

I'm hoping consistency comes with time and experience, and I feel like the only way he's going to work out the bugs in the system is to play through them.

 

[MikefromOH]

He had one year of experience at Ohio State. He was pushed in to the role here in DC because Gruden just didn't care any longer and threw the kid to the wolves.

If the throw is a long and fast pass, he can make it look easy. kid has a laser cannon on his shoulder. but, even with something as close and simple as the screen he over throws or it just looks terrible. He has zero touch.

I dont know what to say about the staredowns, really. he did it so many times but then other times I saw him not do it.

I am about 99% out on him, but Rivera is looking bad right now too. Didn't challenge that offensive PI that was obviously a bad call, not one timeout used to do ANYTHING. I'm sorry, but he isn't helping anyone right now either.

 

[Primus Porcus]

After sleeping on it, I still find myself in the same boat I was yesterday. He had a really bad game. Arguably the worst of his career, or at minimum top 3 along with the two games he got thrown into mid game last year with no practice reps. I still find myself seeing him with something that is completely unteachable. He's got one of the best arms in the league already. The ball fires out of his hand. Touch can be taught, but bein able to spin it the way does cannot.

That stuff said... the jury is clearly still out on him, but I don't know that his issues can't be fixed.

I still think we need to give him the season to find out if he's it. 7 starts coming into this season in a system that was not set up for him to succeed in is tough. Putting him behind this Oline and asking him to carry a talent deficient team with limited practice and no preseason game reps is hard to do. That said, we need to see development in HIS game. HE needs to be better technically. HE needs to be a better decision maker. Yesterday's game was a failing grade. He has not had an "A+" game to bring up that "F" either. He has to do that. I don't need 400 yards passing, but I need an efficient effort, controlling the offense, and making some plays to take over a game. I want to say he did this in short order last year vs Detroit (ironically his first win) where he drove the team well and set us up for a game winning FG. As Mike and I have talked, he points out that these situations are very very limited. I think part of this is that he's studying under Alex Smith. He's been playing A LOT like Alex Smith the first 2 games of the year.... yesterday was a lot more risky. He needs to be better in that situation.


If we don't want to give him the season, then I think we need to at least wait til after the game this Sunday to truly start looking at him and our future. If he struggles mightily on a consistent basis over the next 7 games, then I'll likely agree that we need to see what we have in Allen, and see what he may have to offer going forward. Let Haskins get game experience, 7 games puts him at 17 starts... basically his whole 'rookie' year. If the issues are still there and Rivera / Zampese feel that Haskins' technique and ability has reached it's ceiling, so be it. If we end up picking no. 1 overall we likely have our franchise QB sitting there waiting for us when we walk up to the podium anyway.

 

[Boone]

I wouldn't say he has 'zero touch' Mike. As Rivera said post-game, he can be super accurate., and not just on long balls. At Ohio State he had some ridiculous completion % (I want to say it was 70% or higher). So far in his pro starts he has been inconsistent and as has been said a lot, sometimes his mechanics and footwork don't help him. He struggled even with some short dumpoffs yesterday, but then there were other times where he made those throws easily and athletically. There are also times when he makes throws off schedule or with less than ideal setup where you wonder 'how in the hell did he just make that throw'. It's a mixed bag.

I want to see how he responds to those mistakes. I'd also like to see him with a year's experience, a better OL, a better TE, and a reliable rushing attack before we decide he can't be the guy.

 

[Boone]

Oh - and I hate to tell you guys, but Rivera has never been known as a master game manager or clock management guru. Nor is he a big 'analytics' guy. He goes with his gut in a lot of areas. He will do things fans don't like or criticize based on his gut (hence 'Riverboat Ron'). That's who he is. But he won a lot of games in Carolina with that approach. I don't think he gives one shit whether fans approve of who he is or how he operates

The guy is dealing with cancer treatment and (regardless of how we feel about all the changes) trying to fix the shitshow that has been this franchise while reporting to Dan Snyder. That's more than any HC should have on their plate.

 

[Primus Porcus]

I wouldn't say he has 'zero touch' Mike. As Rivera said post-game, he can be super accurate., and not just on long balls. At Ohio State he had some ridiculous completion % (I want to say it was 70% or higher). So far in his pro starts he has been inconsistent and as has been said a lot, sometimes his mechanics and footwork don't help him. He struggled even with some short dumpoffs yesterday, but then there were other times where he made those throws easily and athletically. There are also times when he makes throws off schedule or with less than ideal setup where you wonder 'how in the hell did he just make that throw'. It's a mixed bag.

I want to see how he responds to those mistakes. I'd also like to see him with a year's experience, a better OL, a better TE, and a reliable rushing attack before we decide he can't be the guy.

One of his worst issues is the touch though. The INT where he overthrew Thomas was just too hot. It was a bad decision but he needed to soften that throw with more air. Speed can't fit into that window. The throw to Inman for the first TD was an absolute flash of what that arm is capable of, but his lack of touch may be his biggest issue.... it can be 'fixed' but he needs to get his mind right on that.

 

[MikefromOH]

Has Haskins ever thrown over 300?

Has he led a game winning touchdown?

Has anyone ever said *ok, Haskins will take over here"

I'm not really concerned about what any other qb does ..just this one. So far, he's been average. He has some great bullets and passes where you are really impressed...and then he throws directly to a DL or over throws a screen and it makes you wonder why he can't see what everyone else sees.

Speilman was yelling what was wrong all game to the point where I wondered if the booth was going to call down to tell them.

 

[Boone]

No one is blind Mike - we all know what he's done so far. He is essentially a rookie in a new offense with half the roster new as well. He did not give up a single takeaway in the first 2 games and generally made good decisions. He was part of the reason we won against Philly and was not the reason we lost to Arizona. He looked terrible yesterday - but fans (all of us) overreact to the most recent events. We get too high after a great performance and want to fire everyone after a terrible one.

We should know, having heralded RG3 as the 2nd coming of QB Jesus, that sometimes our early assessments are wrong and that we aren't seeing the full picture, but nearly always believe we are.

Last year was a total joke. They did nothing to even adequately prepare Haskins to play. He's had 3 games - THREE! - in a new offense. It's way too early to make a fair assessment.

 

[MikefromOH]

At no point did I call anyone blind, John. I am just calling it out in a thread discussing him.

He is a very high picked rookie that isn't performing as one. He is acting like it is his job no matter what when we have Kyle and possibly Alex sitting behind him waiting to go.

If we brought up Kyle because he was good in RIvera's offense in Carolina, we have no reason why he can't be good here as well. He is a 3rd year QB so he isn't old or costing us much at all. If Haskins can't figure this out soon and get his QB game straight, the calls for Allen will come down like they did for Cousins when Griffin sucked and calls for Campbell when Brunell lost it.

 

[Boone]

I was so disappointed watching Haskins crap the bed yesterday. I still think benching him would not necessarily be a bad thing. He has to understand that being a starting QB is earned through play and that he is not guaranteed to have a long successful career as an NFL starter.

I'm not sold on him by any stretch. So Mike, what you are concerned about is valid. He doesn't look like an NFL starter. I guess where we differ is whether that is a permanent situation or whether it is early enough that we are not seeing his possible growth.

We all see where he 'is' right now, there is no disputing he has looked, at best 'okay' and at worst 'awful'.

My apologies if some of my replies have been harsh.

 

[Boone]

At no point did I call anyone blind, John. I am just calling it out in a thread discussing him.

He is a very high picked rookie that isn't performing as one. He is acting like it is his job no matter what when we have Kyle and possibly Alex sitting behind him waiting to go.

If we brought up Kyle because he was good in RIvera's offense in Carolina, we have no reason why he can't be good here as well. He is a 3rd year QB so he isn't old or costing us much at all. If Haskins can't figure this out soon and get his QB game straight, the calls for Allen will come down like they did for Cousins when Griffin sucked and calls for Campbell when Brunell lost it.

I am just pushing back because you are posing questions we clearly all know the answer to - in a snarky manner. We all watch the games and know everything there is to know about his 'body of work'. But it's all good. It's upsetting not because fans have different takes on Haskins. It's upsetting because we are starved for success and you have to ask how many failed 1st round QBs does a fanbase have to watch struggle before they hit on one who can play the position at a high level? I hope to God that this wasn't yet another blown choice. That really sums it up for me.

 

[Primus Porcus]

I keep coming back to it but I don't think it can overstated enough that there was no offseason. Historically the biggest step is taken between year 1 and year 2. Those developments generally happen in the best of circumstances when a QB remains in the same system over the course of that offseason.

One of the biggest things that makes a QB, or any professional athlete, successful is being able to do the basic things without having to think about it. They come naturally. That is where the development between year 1 and 2 comes into play. Year 1 it's a scattered mess where they have to think about 1000 things before they even say hike. Then they have 300 monsters trying to rip their head off. Learning an offensive system so that it's automatic is the difference between a high throw to a TE, and a drop in the bucket. It's the difference between feeling the pressure, because you don't have to 'think' about where read 1, then 2, then 3 are... you don't have to think about it so you can sense other things, your mind isn't occupied. It's the difference between hitting a crossing route in stride or being a split second behind....

That step was washed away because now he has to learn a WHOLE new offensive scheme with no ability to get reps until a month before the first live fire game... with no practice games.... with limited padded practices. This all hurts. I guess I'm preaching patience to see if he can develop this over the season and get that understanding so the play becomes automatic... and the footwork, the sensing pressure, the understanding coverage is what he can focus on....

 

[Boone]

I'm sure all of that is in play. I guess the one area we have seen major improvement (despite the challenges you mentioned, and despite a whole new offense) is that Haskins doesn't look scattered or uncertain out there. He seems to know the playbook and he seems confident calling plays (something that is basic QB 101 stuff but that he still struggled with last year). He clearly worked hard in what offseason there was to be as ready as he could make himself, even if he didn't look ready yesterday.