a 3rd next year and a 5th this year? are you joking?

[Elephant]

as for shamahan and AH I absolutely blame shamahan for the entire AH debacle, it was shammys idiocy that brought us a decade of defensive crapulence, his refusal to play a defence we were suited for and his attempt to force ah to be a NT led directly to AH becoming a contrarian turd. He took the best DT in the league who even when playing halfass was solid, to being a useless lazy quitter.

See, I will not discount this entirely, Shanahan cannot escape his responsibility, but neither can Haynesworth. And to minimize his responsibility for his actions is simply a lack of understanding human behavior. Adults don't behave as Hayensworth did.

 

[fansince62]

An emoji is no substitute for a real , thought out argument. It's good entertainment....but doesn't win the day. When you can come up with an answer based on market theory and the definition of free markets - get back to me partner!

The notion that real estate martkets and the NFL are even remotely alike is...well.....entertaining!

Why should I care about Collins? Hey, did you know back in 1919 the Red Sox let the Babe go for nothin! No kidding. So the Trent trade, why it makes total sense. Hope we don't end up cursed. Are curses included in value?!

 

[ntotoro]

There still has to be a dance partner and a whoooooooole lot of teams drafted Tackles... and early.

Much, much younger, much, much cheaper, many, many fewer miles.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

We in the real estate market like to say market dictates price, because that's how things go in the real estate market. A house will sell for what it sells for, the market always dictates it.

I guess that's not how the rest of the world's market go.

I call.

At the point of the trade, Rivera and Smith just wanted him out of the building. So while I agree, and mentioned it several times over the course of this whole Trent fiasco, a trade before the season would net us the most when teams were more desperate.

However, it came down to the same thing as the Quinton Dunbar situation...get him outta here so we can move on. This is what you get for him when he has become a disease. We got what we could before he became a cancer.

I don't see you admonishing Bill Belichek for letting Collins go for a ham sandwich, coming off an all-pro year.

Sometimes you gotta just cut bait. We did. Championship teams do it, why shouldn't we?

Move on.

the real estate market is nothing like the NFL. you ignore that players dictate a lot about where they will go or not go.
whether they wanted TW out of the building or not is immaterial, we got screwed, we did not get value for a valuable asset. period.
Our FO panicked, when they didnt get a deal done on day one they started acting like we were on the clock, and we were not, the smart play was to let TW sit, let teams who drafted LT's find out that the guy was not the answer at least short term (very few left tackles step right in) and then when THEY panic about possible losing a franchise qb , they will give up more to get a guy whwo can in fact step right in.

I am not saying we would have gotten a 1, but a 5 this season and a 3 next season from a team who will likely be picking near 32? no thank you

 

[MikefromOH]

you assume that the call for a 1 or 2 was a reality and not just the media making up BS stories like they're known to do.

out here in Cleveland we didn't hear ANYTHING about a 1 or 2 for Trent. he was barely even mentioned.
Schefter called out Trent's agent for lying about trade rumors

he was an oft injured, 2 drug suspended, year on the bench LT that is over 30 and rusty.

 

[Neophyte]

the real estate market is nothing like the NFL. you ignore that players dictate a lot about where they will go or not go.
whether they wanted TW out of the building or not is immaterial, we got screwed, we did not get value for a valuable asset. period.
Our FO panicked, when they didnt get a deal done on day one they started acting like we were on the clock, and we were not, the smart play was to let TW sit, let teams who drafted LT's find out that the guy was not the answer at least short term (very few left tackles step right in) and then when THEY panic about possible losing a franchise qb , they will give up more to get a guy whwo can in fact step right in.

I am not saying we would have gotten a 1, but a 5 this season and a 3 next season from a team who will likely be picking near 32? no thank you

You are looking at this as the 5 and 3 are all we got. It isn't. We got 9 million in cap space, now. We answered a question, now. We made a statement to the team and the NFL, now. We got rid of a problem, NOW. Those things all have value.

Trent is what the business world refers to as a "troubled asset" and when selling one of those every business in the world knows their position is weaker and the real value is lower than the perceived value. He will be 32 on opening day (if there is an opening day, which is another factor here) and he hasn't so much as hit a blocking sled in over 15 months. He failed a physical in November and whether that was a legit failure or not doesn't matter. It was a failure and it was on the record. The whole world knew he wasn't playing for the Skins this year (except apparently some fans who think a guy who didn't blink last year was suddenly going to blink this year). He also wants a new, big contract. At 32. Not having finished a season since 2013.

If you would give up more than 5th and 3rd to get him, I want you GM'ing the Cowboys, Eagles, or Giants.

 

[Om]

a few things.
I debated about replying, ignoring you or just leaving.
1- I looked at the forum before posting thanks.
2-this is a football forum not a grammar or punctuation forum, and since im often on my phone and have fat thumbs im probably not gonna capitalise shit. if you don't like it, don't read it. not my problem.
3- when I post, people often engage because I give an actual opinion that can be argued for or against, hence this thread got several replies because guys actually engage when I post. so yeah it is rocket science only you don't seem to understand it. engagement matters more than capitalisation.

next time keep your snark to yourself or you will end up with a dead forum.

Nope.

First, what Boone asked of you has always been and always will be basic forum etiquette. I've had memberships on all kinds of boards for a long time, and really can't recall ever being on one where basic forum etiquette---like checking to see if a topic is already actively being discussed in a thread before starting a new one, and IF starting a new one, taking the extra 10 seconds to actually format the title with basic grammar---was not SOP.

Second, like everyone else here, I've rolled my eyes on other boards when an owner or admin asked me or someone else to make an adjustment I might not think is worthwhile. But if it's me they're asking, I do it. Because I'm a guest on their board. Or I leave. What I don't do is tell them why they're wrong.

Third, if you decide basic forum etiquette and/or respecting the wishes of the owners is too big a burden or a waste of your time, much as I'd hate to lose an engaging poster and fellow fan, you are free to take your business elsewhere. Thanks for worrying about the board dying if we lose you, but I think we'll be fine. We have a whole community here of people who not only have opinions and help drive conversation, but understand how to do that and still kinda play by that silly old forum etiquette thing.

 

[Om]

fansince,

Like everyone here I'm duly impressed by the whole advanced degree thing, but I'll be damned if I can figure what your actual point is. You think we got fleeced in the Trent trade right? If so, cool. So do others. Beyond that though, what are you arguing?

 

[Ax]

Wanted to pop in long enough to acknowledge that El, and some others, were indeed correct that we could have gotten a 1st for The Cancer, last year.
(Doesn't change the fact that that ship had sailed. And that getting rid of him was well worth what we got in return)
Hearing it come straight from Rivera turned it from a likely rumor, to a fact, for me. Kudos to all that were convinced without the definitive proof.
But especially to El.

I do this because, NO WAY El would EVER say I told you so!

Bruce was a douche! Hired by Dan Snyder.

Who's litany of failures as an owner must be constantly verbalized. Lest ye be labeled as his worshiper.
It's a weird, though predictable phenomenon. But it's apparently required if you want to hang with the cool kids.
I'm not gonna ignore that fact. Just to spare people's ears from the truth.That's just the way it is.
Not sorry.

 

[Boone]

I gotta hand it to you Brother Ax, you are persistent... lol. I pity the poor bastard who ever got into a real argument with you. They never stood a chance. I'm thinking about reverting back to my previous stance, none of this has been Dan Snyder's fault, just to escape the sarcasm!

 

[Bulldog]

The Redskins received less in value than Trent Williams is worth to the 49ers.

The question to ask and really the only one that is important is this trade and the failure of Allen and Snyder to make hay while the sun shinned last October significant enough to derail the Redskins hopes for a rebuild under a new coach and staff?

I don’t believe it is and that is why I post for the most part that we should just move on and leave what was a rotting carcass lying along the road where Rivera found it 😎

Look, even the great organizations suffer some setbacks and at least most of the time it is of their own making.

Jimmy Johnson drafted Steve Walsh with a #1 pick in the supplemental draft when he had just taken Troy Aikman. He also drafted Alonzo Highsmith high and the guys knees never allowed him to make an impact in the NFL.


Meanwhile Belichick blew two consecutive #1s with Laurence Mulroney and Brandon Merriweather.

But both clubs ended up going to and winning multiple Super Bowls thereafter.

I am far more interested in what Gibson and Charles do here?

Why?

Because they are here now to be coached and accelerate their careers.

 

[MikefromOH]

Trent won't last 2 years with the 9ers. his demand for a new contract will be too high, he will be too injured to get it, and he will be either traded or let go.

 

[Boone]

Why do we have to wallow in 'what ifs'? Rivera (and likely Kyle Smith) had zero control over what happened last season or the season before that. None. The options were to move on from a malcontent now, delay and hope some team got desperate enough to up the offer, or try and play hardball and attempt to force him to play out his contract. Of the 3, I think the appeal of the first option is obvious. That's what they did. There is no guarantee options 2 or 3 would've worked out any more advantageously. Opinions don't make it so

 

[Neophyte]

Why do we have to wallow in 'what ifs'? Rivera (and likely Kyle Smith) had zero control over what happened last season or the season before that. None. The options were to move on from a malcontent now, delay and hope some team got desperate enough to up the offer, or try and play hardball and attempt to force him to play out his contract. Of the 3, I think the appeal of the first option is obvious. That's what they did. There is no guarantee options 2 or 3 would've worked out any more advantageously. Opinions don't make it so

A bird in hand...

 

[Bulldog]

Some people are like this, they can never get over some issue and it colors their outlook.

In 2018 I remember a guy that couldn’t celebrate the Caps run to the Cup because he had become too disillusioned by the losses to the Penguins over the years.

 

[fansince62]

fansince,

Like everyone here I'm duly impressed by the whole advanced degree thing, but I'll be damned if I can figure what your actual point is. You think we got fleeced in the Trent trade right? If so, cool. So do others. Beyond that though, what are you arguing?

Then you aren't following the thread. Not my problem. As a good netizen I will reconstruct:
1. The essence of Ry's claim is that we did not receive equal or proximate value. I would have thought that folks would have let that fly since value is a difficult concept to pin down.
2. I then agreed and sweetened the pot by drawing the Queen of Fleece and laid that card on the BGO table.
3. There ensued a series of broadsides attacking the value claim the essence of which was we received what the market would bear at that point in time.
4. That idea somehow morphed into the notion that what the market will bear defines the value of whatever is being bartered - in this case Trent.
5. This was further refined into the construct of a free market.
6. I pointed out that a free market is not even close to approximating how salaries, movement, etc., for NFL players is determined. The he said/he said then trailed off into random probes at market definition and unrelated cost/benefit thoughts.

The exchanges followed this path because some did not want to concede what myself and Ry believed to be the case - that we did not receive in kind what we gave away. Unfortunately, the responses were framed in the context of a market /free market - an unsupportable contention. The best answer was we ended the drama (i.e., that's the real value function - not whether the team received proximate value for an All-Pro and, until recently, a player considered a potential hall of famer). There were all sorts of claims basically based on conjecture. Nice, but not proven.

I imagine that you, like myself, are amazed that a simple post by Ry inspired such intense, ummm, emotion. And so, here we are. Apparently what one receives in a trade determines the value of the asset traded. So, to borrow from an anology someone else raised, if a house in an upper tier neighborhood is sold for $75,000 less than the average sales price in the neighborhood in the last year for SIMILAR HOUSING and for less than the county assessed value - was the asset sold for fair value? Rational folks would say no - the seller lost value. This sort of thing happens - just as overpaying happens. The terms of a trade do not determine value. They determine price. And that was my point. Conflating price and value is a common mistake. Not sure it merits a BS flag - but standards vary!

 

[Elephant]

the real estate market is nothing like the NFL. you ignore that players dictate a lot about where they will go or not go.
whether they wanted TW out of the building or not is immaterial, we got screwed, we did not get value for a valuable asset. period.
Our FO panicked, when they didnt get a deal done on day one they started acting like we were on the clock, and we were not, the smart play was to let TW sit, let teams who drafted LT's find out that the guy was not the answer at least short term (very few left tackles step right in) and then when THEY panic about possible losing a franchise qb , they will give up more to get a guy whwo can in fact step right in.

I am not saying we would have gotten a 1, but a 5 this season and a 3 next season from a team who will likely be picking near 32? no thank you

Markets are the same, people are willing to pay a price...whether it's turn key ready, or a fixer upper, the price is always determined by what someone is willing to pay. Football players, toilet paper...houses, all the same.

As for panicking...you say they panicked, how are you in a position to suggest it was panic? You're not!

Yes, Allen fk'd up, no argument we could have had more equity last August. Yes, if we're willing to throw a wrench into the development of this team, we could have held onto him until this August. What do you do when August comes, the opening game comes, then the trade deadline comes and there is still no trade partner? You're stuck with a player who is damaging your team, still...when the new coach is trying to build things differently.

What kind of damage does that do to players moral, especially guys who have been friends with Trent for years...like Moses? He's on thin ice anyway, and we need him to step up...you think Trent still here and forced to be in the locker room helps him develop? What about the rookies? Brandon Scherff who is in negotiations right now!?!?!

Truth is, they weren't willing to let him infect, they found a trade partner, and pulled the trigger to get rid of a malcontent. I was on your side before the trade, wait until the season. Now? I'm just glad he's gone, hope the C we got for him, and the 3rd round pick next year turn out to be contributors.

Cut bait!

Championship teams do it ALL THE TIME! Time to start acting like a championship team until we can become one.

 

[SlinginSam]

for a probowl and all pro LT? we got screwed and frankly I blame the FO for this if thats all you are gonna get for his ass then sit him. there is no way you trade a probowl all pro LT for what amounts to garbage picks. I am pissed off reading this and no I do not believe this was the right move at all.

The Redskins are in a situation where they need as many draft picks as they can get and I know it would be nicer to have like a 2nd or even a first but it’s still a draft pick Just remember this is all Ron Rivera let him do what he has to do to make the franchise successful some of the moves he makes are going to be questionable but at the end of the day this team is going to get better

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

Nope.

First, what Boone asked of you has always been and always will be basic forum etiquette. I've had memberships on all kinds of boards for a long time, and really can't recall ever being on one where basic forum etiquette---like checking to see if a topic is already actively being discussed in a thread before starting a new one, and IF starting a new one, taking the extra 10 seconds to actually format the title with basic grammar---was not SOP.

Second, like everyone else here, I've rolled my eyes on other boards when an owner or admin asked me or someone else to make an adjustment I might not think is worthwhile. But if it's me they're asking, I do it. Because I'm a guest on their board. Or I leave. What I don't do is tell them why they're wrong.

Third, if you decide basic forum etiquette and/or respecting the wishes of the owners is too big a burden or a waste of your time, much as I'd hate to lose an engaging poster and fellow fan, you are free to take your business elsewhere. Thanks for worrying about the board dying if we lose you, but I think we'll be fine. We have a whole community here of people who not only have opinions and help drive conversation, but understand how to do that and still kinda play by that silly old forum etiquette thing.

I never said the board would die without me, what I said was that when I post, people tend to engage whether my grammar and punctuation are perfect or not. as for this board or any others, if you start insulting members, you will find nobody sticks around. Boone and I spoke about this privately, which was probably how it should have been handled from the start.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

The Redskins are in a situation where they need as many draft picks as they can get and I know it would be nicer to have like a 2nd or even a first but it’s still a draft pick Just remember this is all Ron Rivera let him do what he has to do to make the franchise successful some of the moves he makes are going to be questionable but at the end of the day this team is going to get better

the redskins are in a situation where they have to maximise their resources, trading an all pro LT for a 5th rounder and a third next year, both of which are literally garbage picks at the end of the round, was not maximising resouces.