The unpleasant truth

[Om]

Not saying the O is perfect, Goal. 1st in the league, yes, perfect no.

The D, meanwhile, is abysmal--quite possibly historically bad.

33.7 ppg over 16 games? 539.2.

NFL record?

Most Points Allowed, Season

533 Baltimore 1981
501 NY Giants 1966
487 New Orleans 1980

 

[Neophyte]

Ding! Ding! Ding!

HOT DOG, WE HAVE A WIENER!

No, we don't have a winner. The Redskins were within a score or lead for that entire game in New Orleans while they were behind by 2 scores (and touchdowns at that) for most of the Bengals game. Very different situations.

 

[ntotoro]

I'm going to repeat myself until the fog of war lifts.

The Redskins are 1st in the NFL in offensive scoring at 33 points per game.

They are 30th defensively in points allowed at 33.7.

The defense is broken.

If the Defense is simply mid-pack, this team is 3-0.

Nick

 

[Goaldeje]

Not saying the O is perfect, Goal. 1st in the league, yes, perfect no.

The D, meanwhile, is abysmal--quite possibly historically bad.

33.7 ppg over 16 games? 539.2.

NFL record?

Most Points Allowed, Season

533 Baltimore 1981
501 NY Giants 1966
487 New Orleans 1980

I really don't know why this is a big deal. I was frustrated because I would like to have seen Kyle run the ball more during those two series Lanky mentioned to see what would have happened. Running the ball effectively would have helped the D as well, giving them a little breathing time instead of two consecutive 3 and outs.

That's all.

 

[Om]

I think we're just looking at things from different perspectives, Goal. I'm not questionning the game management on a handful of plays in one game by the offensive coordinator. I'm looking at the macro--a team with a highly competitive offense producing enough points to win 13 out of 16 games each of the past 2 weeks in the NFL, as compared to a defense that is so soft against the pass and gives up so many points that talking about a minute or two of possession time in any one game is almost rendered meaningless.

We're also, I think (not singling anyone in particuarly out here) equating "calling more traditional running plays" with successfully gaining yards in criticical junctions on said plays. Plowing into a stacked line on 1st and 2nd downs and leaving a rookie QB with 3rd and long with OT's who cannot block isn't particuarly conducive to success either.

I have zero problem with anyone debating the fine points of when you call off tackle runs and when you don't---I helped build a place to do just that.

I'm just a little weirded by all the negative attention being paid to the unit that's actually doing well (#1 in the league, in case I haven't mentioned that) versus the one that is so bad it could end up re-writing record books.

Not to go all hyperbolic or anything.

 

[Goaldeje]

That's reasonable. My concern, one I have heard echoed here by others, is that Kyle gets a little too cute for my liking. I like creativity in an offensive coordinator, but Kyle, in my estimation, likes being the smartest guy in the room, and relies on some goofy stuff sometimes. Time and a place for everything.

 

[Neophyte]

I'm just a little weirded by all the negative attention being paid to the unit that's actually doing well (#1 in the league, in case I haven't mentioned that) versus the one that is so bad it could end up re-writing record books.

This is me in a nutshell right here. So with you, Om.

That's reasonable. My concern, one I have heard echoed here by others, is that Kyle gets a little too cute for my liking. I like creativity in an offensive coordinator, but Kyle, in my estimation, likes being the smartest guy in the room, and relies on some goofy stuff sometimes. Time and a place for everything.

My guess is you only think of what he is doing as "too cute" when it doesn't work, am I right? Like Gruden's call on the first play of the game was brilliant but if Sanu under throws that ball to Green but just a bit and Gnomes picks it off then maybe it is "too cute". Just sayin'.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

No, we don't have a winner. The Redskins were within a score or lead for that entire game in New Orleans while they were behind by 2 scores (and touchdowns at that) for most of the Bengals game. Very different situations.

Except that the three specific series I'm referring too we were tied at 24 for two, then down 7 for the third. We actually ran MORE when down 17 points! Then got away from it!

 

[Goaldeje]

My guess is you only think of what he is doing as "too cute" when it doesn't work, am I right? Like Gruden's call on the first play of the game was brilliant but if Sanu under throws that ball to Green but just a bit and Gnomes picks it off then maybe it is "too cute". Just sayin'.

Nope. I especially don't like it when it doesn't work, but even when it does, I'm not a huge fan. Shanahan's ZBS bothers me, because my formative football years were spent watching the Hogs. There was nothing cute about the Hogs. We knew what we were gonna do, they knew what we were gonna do, and everybody knew we were gonna do it better.

I understand the game has evolved since then, and I have too. But there is something still incredibly satisfying about watching my team impose their will on another team. Running fake reverses and having Banks gain 10 yards is exciting and can be exhilirating, and even fun sometimes. But it's not Redskins football.

Don't get me wrong, I support Shanahan(s) 100%, and root for them to do well with all my heart. I hope to God we win multiple Super Bowls under them both. I just like running the football. A lot. It's a passing league now, I get that. I still believe really good things happen when you run. The percentage of times a running play is successful is much higher than the percentage of times a cute play is successful; at least I'm willing to bet that's the case. Our defense isn't going to stop ANYONE right now, so why not maximize our offense to be as potentially successful as possible?

 

[Elephant]

Good God, are you guys still talking about this?

Bottom line is we abandoned a rushing attack that had just been successful on the previous drive for TD. We follow that up with the "option" that saw our prized possession QB get drilled at least 3 times.

Why?

"Abandoned the run" may have been the wrong phrase to use in this case because you guys are clinging to the idea that the option was successful. Semantics. OK, the run game was not "abandoned", but smart play calling was. The option was fine, it is a good tool with Griff behind center to throw defenses off balance. It worked a couple of time during their 2nd drive for a TD. But it also got Griff hit more often than he should...those hits take their toll.

What this reminds me of is the same ole' BS that gets this team in trouble when they get momentum going. When we have an opportunity to stick a dagger in, Kyle Shanahan gets cute and calls some play that he thinks will make him look like a genius, only to have it blow up in our face. I have seen it all too often over the past 3 years.

The option would have been great if they'd just left it at the 21 yards gain Banks made on the first time they ran it. Then get back to what had been working. It is even more opened up now. But Kyle gets greedy with Banks and on the next series we go 3 and out after a turnover. Our defense holds, we get good field position again. We punt when we are inside the opposition's territory instead of going for it on 4th and 1 (For the first time in a long time, I felt confident we would convert that 4th down). Then...momentum has just taken a swing in the other direction leaving us with no time outs because Shanahan challenged a stupid play.

It wasn't "abandoning the run" game, if you want to include gadgetry and QB runs, but it was questionable play calling at a crucial point in the game.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

I'll leave it at that, because El just summed up my POV perfectly. Thanks!

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

El pretty much said what I was thinking. but im more concerned with the fact that we are sacrificing griffins body in a season where we have no shot at the playoffs.

 

[tshile]

The option would have been great if they'd just left it at the 21 yards gain Banks made on the first time they ran it. Then get back to what had been working.

So a play going for 21 yards isn't defined as 'working'?

I can't help but wonder what the response would be if they had lost and never ran that triple option again after that...
i can see it now...

'... how do you not give the ball to a guy who gets 21 yards a play...'

I'm glad to see you finally figured out what we were all saying. They didn't abandon the run. You just don't like who was carrying the ball. The ran the ball on those series Lanky and you seem so upset about.

On one of them it was 2nd and 10, and they ran for 2 yards. 3rd and 8 they ran for 7 yards. Morris, the guy you all want to get the ball, is the one who got 2 yards. Griffin, the guy you all don't want to run the ball, is the one who got the 7.

Let me repeat that:
They ran on 3rd and 8, on one of these drives they 'abandoned' the run on.
It just didn't work. We got 7 yards. We needed 8.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

So a play going for 21 yards isn't defined as 'working'?

I can't help but wonder what the response would be if they had lost and never ran that triple option again after that...
i can see it now...

'... how do you not give the ball to a guy who gets 21 yards a play...'

I'm glad to see you finally figured out what we were all saying. They didn't abandon the run. You just don't like who was carrying the ball. The ran the ball on those series Lanky and you seem so upset about.

On one of them it was 2nd and 10, and they ran for 2 yards. 3rd and 8 they ran for 7 yards. Morris, the guy you all want to get the ball, is the one who got 2 yards. Griffin, the guy you all don't want to run the ball, is the one who got the 7.

Let me repeat that:
They ran on 3rd and 8, on one of these drives they 'abandoned' the run on.
It just didn't work. We got 7 yards. We needed 8.

It was a scramble on a broken down pass-play, lol.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

And T, stop using the straw man. Nobody is saying the 21-yard run to Banks did not work. It did work, 21 yards is a very successful run. However, plays like that to gimmick guys like Banks work once, sometimes twice a game (if lucky). The third time was never going to be "the charm" in this scenario, and it was a terrible play call (by whoever made it - that's for you, Henry ).

EDIT: Which is why on that crucial 3 & out, when they ran Banks AGAIN, it went for zero yards.

 

[tshile]

It was a scramble on a broken down pass-play, lol.

No it wasn't it was a draw.
I have game rewind. I just watched it.

The play log lists scrambles as scrambles.

Seriously, if you're going to continue to argue this i'm going to require you to actually put some effort into it. You're just making stuff up from what you think happened.

 

[tshile]

And T, stop using the straw man. Nobody is saying the 21-yard run to Banks did not work.

That's exactly what he implied. That afterwards, we should 'get back' to things that worked.

That's a direct implication.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

No it wasn't it was a draw.
I have game rewind. I just watched it.

The play log lists scrambles as scrambles.

Seriously, if you're going to continue to argue this i'm going to require you to actually put some effort into it. You're just making stuff up from what you think happened.

Really, this is how you want to start arguing? Come on, man. You're better than this.

If it was a draw, I certainly didn't make it up, it was a mistake. Nonetheless, riddle me this - if they had instead of throwing an incomplete pass on first down, they did the same two plays on 2nd and 3rd on 1st and 2nd. Now, instead of 4th and 1, its 3rd and 1, and they likely convert to keep the drive moving. Instead, Kyle tried to get fancy, and ABANDONED THE RUN.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

That's exactly what he implied. That afterwards, we should 'get back' to things that worked.

That's a direct implication.

That's not how I read it. I read it as, what had been working opened up the 21-yard run for Banks. Once you have that, you go back to what had been working before the 21-yarder, because now the threat of that opens up the run game even more.

 

[tshile]

Here is the 3rd and 8 play

Here is the formation at the time of the snap. Notice the playclock says 14:24:

Here's the same play. Notice the play clock, exactly 1 second later. Notice the WR's are barely off the line of scrimmage. Also notice Griffin has already pulled down the ball and taken off. Also notice the (incorrect labeling of 3rd & 7) overlay is still on the screen.
(also notice banks clearly gets off the line quicker than anyone else, by a long shot):

Again, same play, 2 seconds after the previous shot. Notice the down field blocking, by both WR's and lineman: