The unpleasant truth

tshile said:
Eh.

This sort of thing runs rampant in our fan base. (i'm sure others as well, i'm not really a member of any other fan base to know :( )
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Just to let you know, tshile, this is normal for fan forums, I find it everywhere doing my Redskins Recon digging-it's part of the wild, wacky, wonderful world of NFL fandom.

I do think to a certain extent it seems to be a reflection of the intensity of fan interest. Boards of teams that have never really tasted success-Cleveland, Jacksonville,...etc. seem to have fewer "disagreements" of this kind and nowhere near as detailed in specifics.

I haven't checked yet but I imagine Patriots fan boards are a slaughterhouse about now. :laugh2: And then there are some boards out there that are just weird.
 
well bottom line I dont think anyone disagrees that we cant let RG3 get beat up like that on a weekly basis unless we want David carr part 2. we need to minimise how many times he gets hit, that means roll him out, use max pro etc etc DO WHAT YOU GOTTA DO TO KEEP HIM FROM GETTING HIT EVEN IF IT COSTS US WINS IN THE SHORT TERM I DONT CARE, WE FINALLY HAVE HOPE FOR A LONG TERM SOLUTION, IT WOULD BEHOOVE US NOT TO SCREW IT UP lol
 
Rymanofthenorth said:
well bottom line I dont think anyone disagrees that we cant let RG3 get beat up like that on a weekly basis unless we want David carr part 2. we need to minimise how many times he gets hit, that means roll him out, use max pro etc etc DO WHAT YOU GOTTA DO TO KEEP HIM FROM GETTING HIT EVEN IF IT COSTS US WINS IN THE SHORT TERM I DONT CARE, WE FINALLY HAVE HOPE FOR A LONG TERM SOLUTION, IT WOULD BEHOOVE US NOT TO SCREW IT UP lol
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While I completely agree with this, that's not gonna happen.

Coaches don't coach that way anymore. It's win and win now or get fired. (And that's not just Dan Snyder anymore either.)
 
That's one of the reasons I think the acquisition of Griffin is MILDLY like that of Allen's trade for Joe Theismann.

It was a moved that ended up helping one of the following coaches win the Super Bowl.

Shanahan and Allen have just not moved quickly or efficiently enough to bring players in at critical spots.

The OL draft picks and trades have not as of yet yielded anyone playing consistently at a pro bowl level.

We still don't have a true #1 corner or free safety for the umpteenth season.

Our depth at these spots is so poor we can take a guy in retirement like Black and have him be our insurance policy for the season at the most important position on the OL.

We simply can't get by with waiver wire pickups, undrafted rookies and low round picks.

And again when the front office DOES act outside of these limited areas we end up with damaged goods like Jammal Brown or a drat pick in LeRibeus that can't steal time from one of the more average center/guard tandems in the NFL.
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exactly BT,

neo , I know and its so damn irksome, these guys are in year 3 , not year 2, they are the ones who pissed away the first year, they are the ones who havent really dug around to find talent in out of the way spots or had great succsess in the draft, yeah we have lots of new starters but I doubt that Hurt would have started on any other team, same with lick.
 
I disagree that they haven't had great success in the draft. If I recall correctly, I believe all of their draft picks are on the team/practice squad? There may be a few that haven't made it, not entirely sure, but the number who haven't made it is low.

I guess I'm a bit biased because I can't help but look at how the organization was run before. When we draft 12 players in one year and all of them are kept I consider that a success. By comparison the 2 of the top 4 people we drafted in 2008 (Orakpo, Davis, Thomas, Kelly) aren't even in the league anymore.

Maybe that has led me to set the bar entirely too low, but I'm 100% happy with the way our organization has drafted since 2010. 100% happy. I know they haven't hit on every single player they took, and I certainly understand the frustration about our defense. I just think the 6-10 to 9-7 team that this current regime inherited from the Ceratto/Snyder clowns was a complete disaster of a team that was never going to go anywhere.

We begged and begged and begged for them to blow it up. I think the roster turnover is an indication we did blow it up. Maybe not as quickly as we should have (see the colts over the last off season), and they certainly didn't come out and declare they were doing it. But i think the actions indicate it.
 
I don't think it's fair to say they 'pissed away' the first year. Shanahan was coming off a break from coaching, which we knew when we hired him, and that no doubt made for a little more deliberate approach. They also were left with a pretty bare cabinet in terms of draft picks. Add-in the usual time spent figuring out what they had with the roster they inherited and that first year is going to be harder and longer than most.

The only real misstep that first year (in my opinion) was bringing in McNabb. It's clear now that was a bad call, but at the time, very few believed McNabb was washed up and a shell of his former self, so I can forgive that move.

I really only have two areas of criticism for this coaching staff and front office. We need some top tier O-Line talent and we need to focus on building a quality secondary. I know they can't rebuild everything at once, but we've spent way too much attention on WRs and RBs in the first 3 years, and I think what Bulldog and others have argued, that we could've done more in those areas while still accomplishing the other improvements, is correct.
 
But Boone from what we were told Shanahan ordered the film of the 2009 season game to game and broke it down with his 'kitchen cabinet' to get an idea of what needed to change in 2010 and where the club needed to start. Allen was already in place before the end of the year and got a head start on assisting with this evaluation.

Again, I think the club assessed their needs ACCURATELY. But the moves they made to address them have yielded less than optimal results. Therein lies the problem.

OT was a problem. They drafted Williams and traded for Brown. Williams is a talented underachiever so far and Brown may never walk onto an NFL field again, after playing very few games healthy for Washington over the past 2 seasons.

Other moves for OL including Artis Hicks, etc. were disasters. He was signed to a 3 year deal and was out of the lineup and gone by the end of Year 1.

We then have to start Maurice Hurt, a #7 pick in 2011, when there are injuries because the team took a bevy of wide receivers and running backs in the middle rounds.

Teams in the NFL are often able to turn themselves around with good management in 2-3 seasons. Sometimes it takes longer and in the Redskins case with the cap issues with Haynesworth and Hall, it may require another year.

But are we really that close? At the end of this season, will we be ready to say our breakout season will be 2013?

To me it is looking as if this might be a 5-11 or 6-10 season again.

So, unlike the Nationals that lost 100 games and then went 80-81 to show they were on the road to what they have done in 2012, the Redskins have not shown that kind of improvement demonstrated on the field.
 
You've read enough of my posts to know I generally agree with you - but criticizing Shanahan and Allen for 'pissing away' the first year is a little unfair. That's what I was addressing, not their performance in total. And yeah, I thought about the 'prepwork' that Shanahan reportedly did prior to coming into the role (given that, in all likelihood, his hiring was a done deal nearly a year prior), but anyone who's started a new job knows, you can only 'prepare' so much. What you walk into is never quite what you anticipated. I'll also add in there, establishing a positive dynamic with an owner like Snyder has to take some time and attention (hell, establishing who is MAKING the decisions with an owner like Snyder probably took some time).
 
Agreed. Hence my recognition the 'normal' 2-3 year cycle may take 4 here. But 5 or 6?

When do you have to start to see demonstrable improvement in the win-loss column even if it is non-playoff (ie 7-9 or 8-8) to validate that we are on the right track?
 
This year. Anything short of .500 represents overall failure in my opinion. But let's also consider the worst case scenario. Redskins win only 4-6 games again. What's going to happen? I'd have to believe we finally start addressing the 2 areas that are literally killing us. And we might see coaching changes many have called for (although I'm not ready to endorse those).
 
the problem with a 4 or 5 win season beyond the obvious pain to endure is that the Rams and not the Redskins benefit in the 2013 draft. we won't reap the benefit of grabbing a Top 5 OT or CB.

we will be sitting there in Round 2 hoping that someone of Round 1 talent falls to us.

while that may happen it is not an easy route to being a contender in 2013.

I really doubt now that this team gets to 8-8, Boone.

I had them down for 7-9 but even that looks like rose-colored glasses unless the defense somehow finds itself and the OL solidified a bit.
 
Well - a lot of 'where we go from here' depends on just how powerful the play and influence of Griffin turns out to be. It's a long season, and it's not beyond reason that the OL and defense could get it together, despite obvious talent issues. I'm not ready to write off the 2012 season like a lot of folks here are.

And you touched on something else fans will be wringing their hands over for the next 2 years - a lack of a first round pick. And I really don't want to hear about it. Giving up a couple of firsts was what it took to get RG3 in DC. It is what it is. We knew going in that paying the price for Griffin was going to limit/slow our ability to build around him.

Skins fans can't have it both ways.

If fans wanted to keep those two #1 picks, we'd be watching Matt Flynn or Kirk Cousins taking a beating every Sunday, not be looking forward to the next 15 years with Griffin. Personally, I've seen enough already to know we made the right call and will simply have to suck it up and be patient as we build around him.
 
No, we can't regret the deal to get Griffin. Not IF Shanahan and Allen are proficient enough to find the talent we need at other positions including CB and OL in the other rounds and in mid-tier free agency.

So, by making the pick Shanahan put more pressure on himself to deliver as the wiggle room in re the #1 pick is now out the window.

Finishing poorly in 2012 doesn't benefit the Redskins come next April.

As the the title of the movie indicates, it's time to 'Stand and Deliver' :)
 
srry boone but we pissed away the first year no doubt, rather than bring in young guys we brought in old guys to replce our own old guys, we brought in injured guys like brown, we literally didnt bring in any young talent and we traded a draft pick for a win now QB who was a terrible choice.

You might still be arguing with me about the swith on defence but I have been proven beyond a shadow of doubt to have been correct, you dont switch your defence with an eye on the future, you play the defence that best fits your talent that you have and we didnt do that, then the next year we basically got rid of everyone and started from scratch, and that means that we pissed away a year.

Now the only way I can see Shannahan keeping his job is if RG3 shows a lot of progress and stays healthy, if he gets hurt the cousins better show that it was a good decision by playing out of his mind as well or we need to make a change.

What we need is a GM who does GM stuff, a president who is just a president and a coach who coaches, giving shanny all the power hasnt really shown itself to be a good decsiion thus far
 
Shanahan isn't going anywhere - if you're hoping for or expecting that to happen, you're going to be sorely disappointed. It isn't happening any more than Snyder would've let Joe Gibbs go. And 'we need a GM who does GM stuff'? What does that even mean?

None of us knows what's going on in the background, what influence Allen or anyone else has. But I think he's a positive influence on this organization, the kind we've needed for 20+ years. Of all the things to bitch about, I don't see him being one of them.
 
we gave shanny final say on everything, he is the president, , has last say on player/personelle and is basically the only voice. no team with one guy doing everything has ever been really succsessful as far as I am aware anyway. we dont know what goes on in the background other than what we are told, but on most teams you have a clear chain of command here we have shanny.

he has made some good calls , some terrible calls and some in between but when you have a coach his mandate is win now, a president thinks big picture and the gm should think long term. thats why this model of team management is so dnagerous.
 
I may be wrong but I thought Jerry Reese was head of Personnel for the Giants?
 
Yep, Reese is the GM in NY and handles player acquisition.
 
Rymanofthenorth said:
we gave shanny final say on everything, he is the president, , has last say on player/personelle and is basically the only voice. no team with one guy doing everything has ever been really succsessful as far as I am aware anyway. we dont know what goes on in the background other than what we are told, but on most teams you have a clear chain of command here we have shanny.

he has made some good calls , some terrible calls and some in between but when you have a coach his mandate is win now, a president thinks big picture and the gm should think long term. thats why this model of team management is so dnagerous.
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I know it sounds like I'm 'arguing just to argue' - but not my intent. What I'm saying is, you can't acknowledge that we don't really know what the division of labor and work dynamic with Shanahan, Allen, and others is, but still decide Shanahan wields too much authority and that our management team is dysfunctional. I understand your point that Shanahan has 'final say' officially, but if you think Bruce Allen's fingerprints aren't all over this organization, or that Shanahan makes major decisions without (or disregarding) Allen's input - Im not buying that.

I don't think there's any evidence of that so far.

Things haven't worked out across the board yet, but we really are still early on in the process. Shanahan himself (as others here have rightly reminded us) said it would take 5 years to get this team where we want it to be. I think it's reasonable to give him that time. If he doesn't get it done in that window, then I think both he and Allen deserve all the criticism heaped on them.
 
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