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Why Haslett has to go

One of many experimental iterations ...

Rymanofthenorth

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I think it was Om who said if you took our current PPG allowed and extrapolated it over a season we would allow a league record number of points. for a team in its first year of a new scheme with all new players that might be acceptable, for a team in its 3rd year of a scheme thats completely unacceptable.

I take defence pretty seriously, as a former DC myself, I notice little things, I notice passrush styles, I notice coverages, I notice a lot of things that make my friends get annoyed with me when we watch games at the pub lol. I know some of you are the same, thats why I love the chat here on game day lol.

anyway....

3 years ago some of you argued with me when I said that the 3-4 was a stupid decision given our current personelle and the fact that we were essentially taking a strength and making it into a weakness. I was told that players can play in any scheme and that the 3-4 was the wave of the future. I argued that Haslett although shannys pick, was a terrible DC who had never been the architect of any good defences and that he wasnt a great scheme guy or gameplanner, more of a motivator type. I argued that we werent a good fit for the 3-4 due to depth issues and that we were going to be terrible as we were going to be running a dumb versio of the 3-4 as haslett was not a 3-4 guy despite his pittsburgh roots. the argument against me was " shanny would know better than you and shanny thinks it will work" there were quotes from shanny about how he thought the switch would be immediately good and how it would unchain Orakpo, how we would be more aggressive and better on defence.

2 years ago after watching our defence go from 11 to 31 (or something close, im tired and not motivated enough to check now) I was told " well we were recovering from the previous regime and it was our first year in the scheme blah blah" I countered with the fact that you dont change schemes with an eye on getting worse, that stats show that almost every good team that switches to a 3-4 immediately improves and that those teams put a lot of resources into the change BUT that the majority have the key pieces in place beforehand. I pointed at the houston texans as a prime example, and the packers as another. yet again the arguments flew fast and furious that I was jumping the gun, after all we replaced almost every single player (which actually showed that my initial position that we were completely ill suited to run the 3-4 was absolutely correct. something which I never doubted.) but somehow that was ignored and now it was " well the guys are all new so they need time" ignoring the fact that stats show that teams should improve immediately.

Last year after watching our defence fall so hard, we started thinking perhaps with all this new blood this defence was turning the corner, yeah it had holes but we had some good young building blocks in Kerrigan who was easily the key to the resurgence, and we were excited about Jenkins who flashed some great play before an early injury. Riley started to improve and Landry looked great early (which I said was a mirage as a safety making that many tackles shows a bad scheme lol) however our defence after a massive turnover in players was about the same as it was under Blah and finished around the middle of the pack again, but this time we thought there might be some hope. we lost some close games, mostly because of some questionable calls, (hall one on one with no safety help anyone?) and surely we would iron those out?

This year we are seeing the exact same mistakes that we saw in year one, not just from the players but from the coaches, the schemes against the saints started off looking good, we lined up in a 4 man front FINALLY and rarely rushed less than 5, we were aggressive and although we allowed a lot of points and yards, we also got turnovers and pressured some bad decisions by a very good QB. but then something strange happened, suddenly towards the end of the game Haslett went into his now well known shell, he started calling soft zones and those assinine "disguised" coverages that more often lead to blown coverages than picks for us. we started leaving Hall in a soft mid zone with no over the top help and we were shocked when the saints almost came back?

Dont even get me started on Bradford and the Rams, do you guys remember Bradfords rookie game when he torched us? do you remember what defence was played for the majority of that game? if you were in the chat with us you would remember me spazzing out about runningsoft zones aginst a weak oline and rookie qb, you would recall that I bashed haslett pretty much the entire 3 hours and asked why in the hell you would not blitz against what had to be the second worst Oline in the league protecting a rookie, I believe they put up over 30 on us. well guess what? Haslett again tried to fool the rookie, playing combo and disguised soft zones, often rushing 3, sometimes 4 and getting almost no pressure, and what happened? and keep in mind, this was against a rams team who was starting an oline that actually might be as bad as ours.

Against the Bengals we got banged up but worse yet we went into a shell again, soft middle zones, even wehn we did send blitzes instead of press man we played off man which is a recipe for disaster in the NFL, if you let a guy like green get a clean release almost any QB is gonna just throw deep, and thats what they did. when we did blitz it looked unsound, like in our first year when guys blitzed and instead of playing a tight man to man, we ran the far side LB across the field in some weird cross coverage that basically puts him in a trail position right off the hop lol, then we just played soft and sent obvious blitzes with not many stunts, I honestly turned the game off after the 3rd Q because I was getting so angry.


So heres what we have learned in 3 years of Haslett
1- he can get guys amped up, thats never been in doubt, but the problem is sustaining that rush, we will play like beasts one week, guys flying to the ball guys making extra efforts, but then the following week we look flat and worn out.

2- he cant game plan for crap, the good OC's always seem one step ahead, Reid has made Haslett his girlfriend, so have the Rams. his game plans even when they work out (like against the saints) rely on the offence to score big because they are often unsound and give up huge chunks of yards and sometimes points.

3- he doesnt adjust, and when he does adjust its rarely for the better. late in games he goes into prevent mode far too quickly, and worse yet, he calls the same bunk zones with the same bunk audibles. I cant count how many times ive screamed NOOOOO when I see hall line up and is obviously in off man late in the game with no safety over the top.

4- hes a lame duck, as a DC if a guy approached me with a job offer and said " you WILL RUN THIS FORMATION AND ALIGNMENT, and then you can have this job." id tell him to eff off, I will decide my defence based on the players I have available and I will run the best defence possible because thats MY reputation on the line as a DC, so no I wont just run the flavour of the month because you watched the green bay superbowl video. you want a 3-4 guy? go hire a 3-4 guy, unless you have obvious 3-4 players in which case thats what I would run BECAUSE THAT WOULD GIVE ME THE BEST CHANCE TO BE GOOD. instead Haslett jumped at the job.

I dont think we can even fire him, there are no better options available now, so we are stuck watching this, but Ill be amazed if hes here next year, Shanny isnt stupid, I almost wonder if he brought Haslett here knowing hed need a fall guy in season 3 lol but maybe im paranoid.

anyway, Haslett has to go, I just dont think we can afford to let him go until the end of the season.
 

Ax

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A few observations.

1. We all know your position on the ill-timed switch to a 3-4. We can recite it in our sleep. There really is no need to repeat it 350 days a year. In addition, you're only risking your rotator cuffs with the repeated back patting. And, you weren't the only one who was anti-switch, and anti-Haslett, from the get-go.

2. How'd that Packer defense you held up as an example fare last year. Their 3rd, I believe.

3. We're all in agreement that Haslett sucks, and should be replaced. We also know it won't happen until after the season ends, if then.

4. Love your passion.

Me? I'm all for playing press man 97.925% of the time.
 

Cycleans

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Ryman "I get you are all over the Defense thing" I was just wondering why you spell defense wrong? You spell it with a "C"
 

Lanky Livingston

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The front 7 is really, really good. We lost two key pieces and the Bengals still had no running room. Not sure how long it will take to fix the secondary, but hopefully only an offseason. Shanahan has found good CBs in rounds 2-4 before (Darrent Williams, the guy who got shot on New Year's Eve, was one example).
 

tshile

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I'm confused, is your gripe with the 3-4, haslett, or both?

I'm reserving judgement on haslett because I think reacting to 3 weeks of football is insane. we have no idea what things will look like in December; none what so ever.

I'm also reserving judgement because Shanahan has a very distinct history of burning through defensive coordinators when he was in Denver, post super bowl-runs, because he could never get a defense that played really well. I do not want to see him start that cycle here.

Finally, consistency has been a long standing gripe from this fan base. Part of having consistency is sticking with your guy through good and bad. If you want consistency, then you have to deal with bad runs/stretches/years. If you're advocating for the firing Haslett 3 weeks into a 3rd year which is following 2 years in which the defense improved year after year, then you're advocating against consistency. Obviously that's fine, just recognize what your stance is and how it conflicts with all the bitching we've been doing since 1999...
 

tshile

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By the way, if the replacement refs weren't such screw ups our defense would have 3 defensive TD's in 3 weeks.
 

Ax

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In Ryman's defence ;) he states at the end of his post that he's not advocating for Haslett's removal during the season.
 

Dead Money

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OK I see what's going on here....

Ryman you were right, we were all wrong, we bow to you and your knowledge has been both downright prophetic and disrespected. Please share with us how to cure cancer, hunger and the economy. ;)

Haslett sucks AND our players at corner and safety suck. I guess we could have gotten away with one or the other but not both at the same time.
 

Elephant

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I'm confused, is your gripe with the 3-4, haslett, or both?

I'm reserving judgement on haslett because I think reacting to 3 weeks of football is insane. we have no idea what things will look like in December; none what so ever.
I've seen you make this argument twice today..."reserving judgment after three games." It's just not a valid argument. We've got 2 full years here and the rest of his career to support our assertion that Haslett must go. Even Om questioned the hire from the very beginning...reserving judgement. Hey Om, what do you think at this point?

Last year when Jerruh fired Wade, Ryman and I were all over us hiring him if we were gonna stay in the 3-4 and get rid of Haslett. Has has done nothing in the past 2 seasons and 3 games to suggest he will get better. We saw improvement last year, where is it this year? We went from abysmal to halfway decent to terrible. Will the end of the year see us near the bottom of the league on defense again...you can reserve judgment there, but Haslett has to go!

But for real Ryan, you gotta let go brother! We made the switch and we both agree it was wrong the manner in which we did it. But you gotta let it go! ":laugh:
 

Lanky Livingston

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I think Neo said it first, but Wade was never coming here. He was going to Houston no matter what; even if Snyder backed up the dump trucks full of money to his house.
 

Elephant

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I think Neo said it first, but Wade was never coming here. He was going to Houston no matter what; even if Snyder backed up the dump trucks full of money to his house.
I know, I still wish we'd have tried to do something to get him here.
 

Lanky Livingston

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I know, I still wish we'd have tried to do something to get him here.
I would be curious to know if Snyder & Shanahan even talked to Wade or not. I think Haslett/Shanahan were a package deal, just like Shanahan/Allen though. Who knows?
 

Om

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I've seen you make this argument twice today..."reserving judgment after three games." It's just not a valid argument. We've got 2 full years here and the rest of his career to support our assertion that Haslett must go. Even Om questioned the hire from the very beginning...reserving judgement. Hey Om, what do you think at this point?

Last year when Jerruh fired Wade, Ryman and I were all over us hiring him if we were gonna stay in the 3-4 and get rid of Haslett. Has has done nothing in the past 2 seasons and 3 games to suggest he will get better. We saw improvement last year, where is it this year? We went from abysmal to halfway decent to terrible. Will the end of the year see us near the bottom of the league on defense again...you can reserve judgment there, but Haslett has to go!

But for real Ryan, you gotta let go brother! We made the switch and we both agree it was wrong the manner in which we did it. But you gotta let it go! ":laugh:
Seriously? Bro I was all over that question here yesterday. :cool:
 

tshile

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I've seen you make this argument twice today..."reserving judgment after three games." It's just not a valid argument. We've got 2 full years here and the rest of his career to support our assertion that Haslett must go. Even Om questioned the hire from the very beginning...reserving judgement. Hey Om, what do you think at this point?

Last year when Jerruh fired Wade, Ryman and I were all over us hiring him if we were gonna stay in the 3-4 and get rid of Haslett. Has has done nothing in the past 2 seasons and 3 games to suggest he will get better. We saw improvement last year, where is it this year? We went from abysmal to halfway decent to terrible. Will the end of the year see us near the bottom of the league on defense again...you can reserve judgment there, but Haslett has to go!

But for real Ryan, you gotta let go brother! We made the switch and we both agree it was wrong the manner in which we did it. But you gotta let it go! ":laugh:
I never said I was arguing for or against firing or keeping Haslett...
I've specifically gone out of my way, multiple times, to make it clear I have no idea if he should be fired.

All I've said is we know our secondary sucked BEFORE the season even started, and that Haslett doesn't have much to work with.

I'm not telling anyone that I think they're wrong in wanting to get rid of Haslett. I'm just saying I find it funny that a fan base that has lambasted Snyder for not having patients, is not showing any itself.

You know how bi polar this fanbase is. Win a game and we're awesome, lose a game and everyone needs to be fired.

I was called an idiot, among other things, and told I don't know football (here and other places) when I suggested that maybe, just maybe, the week 1 saints win wasn't a big deal - maybe the Saints were going to suck this year.
Here's the thread, it starts at post 9.
http://www.bgobsession.com/showthread.php?p=140469

that thread also talked about how the media is against us for picking us to have a bad season; how it's not possible for the saints to suck, it's not possible for us to suck.

here we are, week 3. The saints are 0-3 with losses to the redskins, panthers, and chiefs - 2 of the 3 at home, and we're talking about firing our 2/3 of our coordinators.

if the NFL was so predictable, if it didn't change on a whim so much, it wouldn't be nearly as entertaining as it is. the only point i'm trying to make is that i have no idea if what we've seen in 3 weeks is indicative of what we will see in the next 13 weeks, or the next 2 years; no one does. we can make predictions, but this league changes week to week, month to month, and year to year. Those predictions are worth jack, and when those predictions come true it's based on luck not insight...
 
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Om

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Except that Haslett's track record as a DC in the NFL points pretty much toward him being pretty much what he's always been---a guy who doesn't get the most out of his defenses and by any kind of objective analysis is just a guy. He's done nothing in the time he's been here to convince me that the light is suddenly going to come on.

Sometimes what you see really is what you get.
 

tshile

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Om,
Do you think our D line and linebackers have improved?
If so, do you give any credit to Haslett?

I'm genuinely curious what you think about that. Please don't mistake this as trying desperately to defend Haslett. As I've said before, if they fired him today I wouldn't be surprised nor upset.

My answers are:
Yes, I think they've improved a lot! Both in quality starters and in depth.
Yes, I give Haslett credit; I also give Allen/Shanahan credit and whoever the LB and D Line coaches are credit as well.
 

Ax

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If I may, as another with great reservations about Haslett since, forever.

Yes our talent level has increased. But has Hasletts ability to maximize their abilities? I say no. I don't think he gets over-achievement from a single player on this team

I'm not sure if the entire coaching staff is. They may do great if we ever get 22 HOF's on the field at the same time. But they don't seem to inspire great play, out of average, or slightly above average players.
 

Cycleans

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I can't see how Haslett doesn't get a bit more patience from the fans? I'm not suggesting he was the best hire or shouldn't draw some fire for the poor showing we've watched from his unit. Haslett has very limited options with the roster he's playing with imho.
I think anyone beyond a casual fan realised there were alot of holes to fill in the off season. To make matters worse there was very little depth across the board.
On the bright side there was some notable draft picks to play with and at least 2 "franchise calibur qbs" that the Skins had a legitimate chance to draft.
The team got the qb but had to give up a bunch of very nice picks to get him. It appeared the Skins had a bunch of cap room to play with but then the NFL decided that the Skins had gone over the cap during an uncapped year:whip: and poof there went a boatload of cap room.:beadyeyes:
Yes its going on 3 yrs now, yes it sucks still as a fan. I'm guessing coaching isn't all that enjoyable as well at the moment.:hammer: This team is an unfinished project. The Qb looks great if he can stay healthy. Defenses across the board suck this season, most likely due to the rule changes. I still say we will contend for a playoff spot:eclipsee_Victoria:
 

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