Want feedback. RGIII.. am I being emotional, objective, both or totally wrong?

[fansince62]

You're right. The only way we AREN'T in some sort of *amned state is if Griffin can turn this nonsense around be what we wanted him to be. I wish I would be a fly on the wall in Grudens office to see what is on his mind... I don't think Gruden should abandon his playbook, scheme, or philosophy to try to win a marginal number of games by 'piecing' things together (not saying you're suggesting it, just speaking big picture here). I hope for the sake of our lives people (myself included) can maintain the patience we all need to fix this organization. Whether that be patience in Griffin, Gruden, or whatever number of pieces we need to put this puzzle back together.

bingo! and, I have to admit, that was simply a horrible performance by RGIII against TB. but I'm not seeing any path forward that delivers promising results in the near term other than RGIII getting his *hit together.

 

[fansince62]

Picking up the 5th year option is a no brainer.

hey...I thought you were sitting this out in happy land!!!!

you know...you are, of course, right. this is gonna fix itself one way or another. no sense riding this train where we're just dueling with one another.

 

[Ax]

hey...I thought you were sitting this out in happy land!!!!

you know...you are, of course, right. this is gonna fix itself one way or another. no sense riding this train where we're just dueling with one another.

Not sitting out. Just avoiding 90% of the last few days around here.

But, I felt obligated to share that little fact with the class.

 

[Elephant]

Picking up the 5th year option is a no brainer.

Do you know what the 5th year option would cost?

16-18 million. You really think he's earned that?

 

[fansince62]

Do you know what the 5th year option would cost?

16-18 million. You really think he's earned that?

I like that concept. so...what would be your plan for every player on that roster who hasn't earned the income they're making now?

 

[Elephant]

I like that concept. so...what would be your plan for every player on that roster who hasn't earned the income they're making now?

You know damn well I am not going through every contract to determine the worth of each player. If I could, I would slash many players on the team and let young guys play. I don't think it could get worse. However, the discussion this week is about Bob. Your incessant demand for others to supply you the critical thinking you feel appropriate is futile. You want us to provide you a dissertation and it just ain't gonna happen. We will continue to argue on a superficial level, because the reality is...that's all we have the time for and if I am honest...some of us don't have the ability to argue any further, at least in some respects.

However, there is a human ability that goes beyond your demand for statistics...it's as simple as a gut feeling. You say that's not enough and I say...so what! My gut from the start has been proven correct to this point. Robert is a dynamic young man whom I felt was not worthy of the price tag we paid. If I had the energy to research my own posts, I would show you my concern pre-trade. It just isn't that important so you will have to take my word for it.

I thought he could win us a division or two, but I was concerned about his penchant for injury. Both have come true. I do not see this team winning a Super Bowl with RG3 behind center. If somehow Robert Griffin steps up and becomes a pro Qb, I think he is equipped to succeed. I am just not sure if Robert Griffin will ever play. I think he'll always want to be RG3 and RG3 is done in the NFL.

I agree, let it play out. That is about the only option we as fans have...in reality, it's the only option the team has.

 

[Ax]

Do you know what the 5th year option would cost?

16-18 million. You really think he's earned that?

Couldn't care less. The rookie cap worked. Imagine what he would have cost without it.

I think he's earned the right to prove himself. This injury shortened season, regardless of how it ends, isn't enough time for a fair assessment.
I'd do my best to make sure we have Robert, Colt, and Kirk, on the roster next year. Spend my time on upgrading the lines, and the safety's.

 

[fansince62]

You know damn well I am not going through every contract to determine the worth of each player. If I could, I would slash many players on the team and let young guys play. I don't think it could get worse. However, the discussion this week is about Bob. Your incessant demand for others to supply you the critical thinking you feel appropriate is futile. You want us to provide you a dissertation and it just ain't gonna happen. We will continue to argue on a superficial level, because the reality is...that's all we have the time for and if I am honest...some of us don't have the ability to argue any further, at least in some respects.

However, there is a human ability that goes beyond your demand for statistics...it's as simple as a gut feeling. You say that's not enough and I say...so what! My gut from the start has been proven correct to this point. Robert is a dynamic young man whom I felt was not worthy of the price tag we paid. If I had the energy to research my own posts, I would show you my concern pre-trade. It just isn't that important so you will have to take my word for it.

I thought he could win us a division or two, but I was concerned about his penchant for injury. Both have come true. I do not see this team winning a Super Bowl with RG3 behind center. If somehow Robert Griffin steps up and becomes a pro Qb, I think he is equipped to succeed. I am just not sure if Robert Griffin will ever play. I think he'll always want to be RG3 and RG3 is done in the NFL.

I agree, let it play out. That is about the only option we as fans have...in reality, it's the only option the team has.

you missed the point...totally.

what matters is the principle. I get it that you and others are focused/obsessed with Robert. the point, however, is that when the madding crowd begins to echo it's pronouncements on how individuals should be treated...any leader knows there should be consistency. the principle you implicitly voiced was that pay should be merit driven. I was not disputing that. As your humble admirer I was merely shining a light on the notion that the principle must be applied across the board.

As for statistics....I don't demand them. I ask that if they are going to be used, they be used as designed, with some intelligence and in a manner that actually reveals something analytically useful. here's a free lesson: means, averages, etc., they don't get you very far without some idea of variance/dispersion. we all sort of know that in some instances...the Skins at one point had a high sack average relative to the rest of the league. then again...8 sacks came in one game. in some quarters that might be called an outlier. a variance statistic would, perhaps, provide insight into how consistent the d-line was at sacking its despised foes.

gut reaction or an allergy? I understand the notion of opportunity cost. that is a valid argument. as is the counter that that notion itself rests on a huge assumption...especially given the history of this organization: those first round picks would have delivered value. I do believe that you have scopelocked on a terrific example, a fact as it were, of how that is not the case.

in my mind, the narrative is different than what is being painted. I believe we are witness, yet again, to a drama that plays itself out with amazing regularity: the systemic dysfunctionality in this organization has, yet again, ruined another player. this kid could have been placed on the right trajectory. but the organization destroyed him. they didn't surround him with the right protections; they pushed him beyond the point of reason when he was injured to serve personal interests; they created an atmosphere of distrust and confusion...intentionally I might add....among the players, coaches and ownership; right or wrong they screwed up their cap management and paid a price; they continually misjudge talent....shall we go on?

when I look at Robert I see the flaws like everyone else. I also see someone who is about as close as you're gonna get to someone who is a pillar, an outstanding, accomplished young man when viewed from a little distance. despite that...he's basically being handled - by the fans - as someone equivalent to ray rice. that, of course, is what fas do when the losses pile up. done it myself at times. doesn't make it right. doesn't mean we shouldn't do our homework and determine what the real causes are. I have seen this in other venues. When an outstanding talent arrives and fails.....someone who has succeeded in just about all other avenues of life he/she has attacked...and they fail miserably in your organization.....it is usually the case that there is something fundamentally wrong in your organization; something that is creating failure generally. I believe that is what is going on here. too many folks are completely engaged with Robert's mistakes this past weekend....and not asking....how did we get to this change...a change that i a significant delta from past performance. and make no mistake that was a major drop off the cliff....not a shaded blip. that's why I, at times, have contempt for the Coolies of the world. So, if Robert is taking 9 yard drops all of a sudden and that disrupts the blocking logic....why is he doing that? he made no eff'ing effort to assess...even speculate about first causes. Could it be Coolie has interests and contacts he too is trying to protect? could it be that he too arrives with some self-interest driven biases? it's entirely reasonable to look at a film and pick out mistakes. it's much harder...and perhaps requires more personal integrity....to invest the time in figuring out the reasons driving these behaviors. Coolie and all the others don't do that. and, for the most part, we all know why: in this nanosecond/twitter driven universe we now occupy.....it's too easy to zoom in on the particulars and compress complexity into some over-generalized, simplistic (not you) 128 character assertion of truth.

 

[Goaldeje]

Now that, ladies and gentlemen, is a GREAT post.

Well said, Al. I don't know if he is ruined beyond return, or if he is salvageable. Those who argue that we need to start over with yet another QB prospect are missing the crux of your argument, that starting over will not bear any different results. Here is a difficult question to answer: would Andrew Luck have fared any better here than in Indy were their situations reversed? Luck has been hit a LOT, playing behind a very poor (to be generous) offensive line, which is why I don't think the answer to that question is as easy as it first appears.

There is something rotten in Ashburn, of that I have no doubt.

 

[Om]

Hmm. I'm just not sure blaming an organization for a third-year NFL QB's repeated fundamental mistakes in a given game---taking the wrong number of steps in a drop, showing bad mechanics, missing reads---is fair to the organization OR the player.

We know the organization has issues.

And we know the QB had a really bad game last week ... along with the rest of his mates.

It's ok to evaluate the player's performance in a given game. Doing so does not exonerate the other facets.

The player's performance, to some very real measurable extent, has to be on the player's shoulders.

Doesn't it?

 

[fansince62]

Now that, ladies and gentlemen, is a GREAT post.

Well said, Al. I don't know if he is ruined beyond return, or if he is salvageable. Those who argue that we need to start over with yet another QB prospect are missing the crux of your argument, that starting over will not bear any different results. Here is a difficult question to answer: would Andrew Luck have fared any better here than in Indy were their situations reversed? Luck has been hit a LOT, playing behind a very poor (to be generous) offensive line, which is why I don't think the answer to that question is as easy as it first appears.

There is something rotten in Ashburn, of that I have no doubt.

dang it Goal...I should have thought of the Luck query. what a great way to make the point.

bravo.

 

[fansince62]

Hmm.

The player's performance, to some very real measurable extent, has to be on the player's shoulders.

Doesn't it?

when looked at from the perspective of a single event. sure.

but, per previous, when trying to understand WHY things are unfolding the way they are...the analytic net spreads a lot more widely. if this were a unique or infrequent circumstance...I'd be more inclined to agree. but that's not the case. we have routine failures at the QB position for over a decade now. we have routine/repeating failures at just about every other position. with the exception of 2012 and maybe 2005....none of this is ever, ever, ever interrupted by 2-3 years of basic, improved, higher quality play. to me....it's spot on clear. the fundamental problem is systemic and lies at higher reaches in this organization. to me, as Goal says, this pattern will persist until those system problems are fixed. Shanahan saw it...tried toi fix some of the major problem areas. but his own hubris (and whatever happened behind the scenes that we will never know about) got in the way. Robert Griffin is an impressive young man. but at the end of the day he's a friggin wet behind the ears 20 year old. this organization never had a development plan for him - and enforced it. that much is painfully clear. Gruden, we all thought, was brought in partially to make up for lost time in that respect. well...he either didn't do so, had the wrong plan...or is being undermined.

 

[Om]

I'd say we've had crap quarterbacks for most of a generation ... what's different now is that the current one seems to have as much legit potential not be crappy as anyone since Theismann. Clearly the other problems around him--the OL, the hemorrhagic defense, the coaching/philosophy change--have contributed to him coming to a place he had the awful game he did against Tampa. From now until the end of the year we'll have some good laboratory time to watch the quarterback for signs it was an aberrant performance, not a new standard or indicator he came to his personal crossroads, looked both ways, proceeded into the intersection and got run over by a friggin' pirate ship.

 

[stevenaa]

I think the Luck comparison makes a different point. He's played behind a poor line, taking a ton of hits and still has and is developing into a top rate qb. His play here would be markedly different and better than RG's to this point.

He's making basic mistakes. He's either not studying the way he should, or he's just not getting it. Neither answer is appealing. Maybe he simply doesn't know how to effectively study football and grasp the concepts in a meaningful way. Maybe the failure is the lack of recognition that here's a guy who's never had to study the game, never had to learn a playbook and now he's having difficulty transitioning concepts from paper to the field. Maybe he needs more direct hand holding and less reliance on any study away from the park. One of the constants you hear people mention when discussing great QB's is how well they understood the game. How they remained a student of the game their entire careers. We hear how hard he works from coaches, but is he working on the right things in the right way. A lot of that is on the coaches as well.

 

[Elephant]

you missed the point...totally.

what matters is the principle. I get it that you and others are focused/obsessed with Robert. the point, however, is that when the madding crowd begins to echo it's pronouncements on how individuals should be treated...any leader knows there should be consistency. the principle you implicitly voiced was that pay should be merit driven. I was not disputing that. As your humble admirer I was merely shining a light on the notion that the principle must be applied across the board.

Al, were you around for the last 5 years?

When Fred Davis was given an extension, I was livid! We should have cut bait 2 years before we did, but the crowd kept saying to give him a chance.

Last year during the off-season, I clamored for us to let Orakpo go, torn pec in 2 of the previous 3 seasons and you want to pay him, what?

This off-season, I was not sure I wanted D-Hall back, less adamant about not re-signing him, but he was brought back at tremendous value so I over looked it for the most part being told, his leadership was needed...yeah, the type of leadership that shows the younger players what it's like to jaw to refs and other players.

You speak about the organizational dysfunction...we all know it is a mess. When certain moves are made, everyone screams, this is it...Snyder has learned, re-hiring Gibbs, giving Shanahan the reigns, having Bruce Allen say he is in charge. The first 2 actually saw some success with this team...then what happened?

I know it needs to be fixed.

But don't tell me I am narrowing in on Robert only because I have been against the trade in the first place. I was excited about Orakpo, Davis had such potential. There are 2 examples. I did not miss your point, I was simply telling you we are tired of you demanding more than what you call failed data to support assertions.

Assumptions are used all the time...they are generally called theories...so far Robert has proven me right. You want more data support?

Here's one piece of info you should be able to see clearly. In his 3 years in the NFL he has clearly regressed. Why can't he perform the simple Read Option better than Russell Wilson when he was so good at it in his rookie season? Don't tell me it's the rule change after Wilson's performance a few weeks ago. It's because Robert is slower now after 2 serious injuries.

 

[SNF]

Picking up the 5th year option is a no brainer.

Yes sir! I've been saying that all year. Of course if he spends the rest of this season on the field looking like he's had a lobotomy, I may feel differently by the end, but I don't expect to see repeat performances of the brain dead QB.

 

[fansince62]

I'd say we've had crap quarterbacks for most of a generation ... what's different now is that the current one seems to have as much legit potential not be crappy as anyone since Theismann. Clearly the other problems around him--the OL, the hemorrhagic defense, the coaching/philosophy change--have contributed to him coming to a place he had the awful game he did against Tampa. From now until the end of the year we'll have some good laboratory time to watch the quarterback for signs it was an aberrant performance, not a new standard or indicator he came to his personal crossroads, looked both ways, proceeded into the intersection and got run over by a friggin' pirate ship.

maybe....Campbell actually performed reasonably well in Oakland before he was hurt.

agree totally on figuring out whether Griffin has it or not. is his decline permanent - we definitely need to know that. if so...see ya. frankly, I think we should be doing the same for Gruden and a whole bunch of players. we're getting to this point a bit later in the season than we normally we do though we were there...in reality.....several games ago.

with you so far 1000%

what remains is fixing the organizational issues that make this a permanent part of the Redskin landscape. packing off Griffin (or other players0 won't fix the real problem IMO.

 

[micks113]

when looked at from the perspective of a single event. sure.

but, per previous, when trying to understand WHY things are unfolding the way they are...the analytic net spreads a lot more widely. if this were a unique or infrequent circumstance...I'd be more inclined to agree. but that's not the case. we have routine failures at the QB position for over a decade now. we have routine/repeating failures at just about every other position. with the exception of 2012 and maybe 2005....none of this is ever, ever, ever interrupted by 2-3 years of basic, improved, higher quality play. to me....it's spot on clear. the fundamental problem is systemic and lies at higher reaches in this organization. to me, as Goal says, this pattern will persist until those system problems are fixed. Shanahan saw it...tried toi fix some of the major problem areas. but his own hubris (and whatever happened behind the scenes that we will never know about) got in the way. Robert Griffin is an impressive young man. but at the end of the day he's a friggin wet behind the ears 20 year old. this organization never had a development plan for him - and enforced it. that much is painfully clear. Gruden, we all thought, was brought in partially to make up for lost time in that respect. well...he either didn't do so, had the wrong plan...or is being undermined.

If I may add my .02, fan. I respectfully disagree with the systemic problems being at the core of what is all wrong with this 2014 team. Football teams are not run from a system standpoint. Heck, the whole NFL didn't even have any policies and procedures for their personnel problems and Goodell is catching hell for it. The Redskins also don't have standards that carry over from year to year to year. Everytime you change a head coach, or GM, player personnel guys, or scouts or any front office personnel, you are changing the dynamic of what path the team takes to be a winner. Very very few teams have any consistency at all. The Pats, Broncos and Packers are shining examples, but they are the exceptions not the rule. The head coach is the driving force of where the team is going and what shape the team looks like. The buck really stops there. When we have a lot of head coaching changes, guess what happens? There is no team chemistry and no team identity. Compounding that problem is that without team leaders (and I'm talking about players here), then there's not much chance of establishing team identity and chemistry. Its takes the players and buying into what the coach is preaching to make a winner, not a "system' implemented by the owner. Like my momma always told me, what you don't want is a system designed by geniuses, to be run by idiots. It don't work like that fella.

 

[fansince62]

I think the Luck comparison makes a different point. He's played behind a poor line, taking a ton of hits and still has and is developing into a top rate qb. His play here would be markedly different and better than RG's to this point.

He's making basic mistakes. He's either not studying the way he should, or he's just not getting it. Neither answer is appealing. Maybe he simply doesn't know how to effectively study football and grasp the concepts in a meaningful way. Maybe the failure is the lack of recognition that here's a guy who's never had to study the game, never had to learn a playbook and now he's having difficulty transitioning concepts from paper to the field. Maybe he needs more direct hand holding and less reliance on any study away from the park. One of the constants you hear people mention when discussing great QB's is how well they understood the game. How they remained a student of the game their entire careers. We hear how hard he works from coaches, but is he working on the right things in the right way. A lot of that is on the coaches as well.

Luck is playing better than RGIII this season and last. no doubt. he also throws a lotta picks. he's developing no doubt - credit to the Colts organization on that. where he ends up on the spectrum...TBD.

 

[servumtuum]

they are generally called theories[/B]...so far Robert has proven me right. You want more data support?

Here's one piece of info you should be able to see clearly. In his 3 years in the NFL he has clearly regressed. Why can't he perform the simple Read Option better than Russell Wilson when he was so good at it in his rookie season? Don't tell me it's the rule change after Wilson's performance a few weeks ago. It's because Robert is slower now after 2 serious injuries.

Assumptions being called "theories" is a misnomer, what they actually are hypotheses subject to the examination of data which either contribute to or don't contribute to their ability to provide an explanation of what is being observed. (The mis-use of the word "theory" is a major pet peeve of mine.).

Your question of Robert's regression is a great example of a hypothesis whose explanation is the subject of much of the debate going on. Frankly, pretty much everything I've been reading here mentions factors that have a level of plausibility but whose ranking in terms of how much contribution each factor has had seems to be the major bone of contention.

Right now, I am at the point of seeing a "perfect storm" of variables all contributing to varying degrees to the current situation and not enough information to be able to rank the variables in order of how much they contribute. I, thus, have drawn no conclusions yet myself.