Taylor Heinicke Discussion

[Chris]

And with an improved OL and defense really hitting it's stride. It's a valid question.

Yeah, maybe, plus with more time at least observing the offense. I believe if he plays again that is the reason. One perhaps final chance to see what’s what before making a decision on going forward.

 

[MikefromOH]

Heinicke is named starter for next week already.

Bye bye, Wentz

 

[Bulldog]

Wentz is what he is at this point. Anyone thinking he is going to go back to being the playmaking quarterback he was in 2017 before getting hurt is fooling themselves. It's amazing the Eagles and then the Colts were able to get this much for him in trades the past 2 years.

Wentz is a statue like Joe Flacco. That type of limited mobility quarterback is a liability in today's faster league where linebackers are running 4.4 and safeties are regularly being used as blitzers with DL dropping into zone coverage, etc.

I don't understand how the team wins if Wentz has a healthy line and running game and is still a guy that while throwing 3 touchdowns also throws 2 picks in the same game.

The bottom line is Wentz is ERRATIC and for $28M we need better value than a guy that throws a killer pick on the 2 f****** yard line against the Titans.

A better quarterback gets that ball in the end zone and avoids throwing at a guy that is covered at the goal line.

Anyone remember the 0-24 start against the Lions or Eagles earlier in the season?

After the faster start against Jacksonville, Wentz cratered quickly and while the OL was a sore spot so was his glacial decision-making in the pocket.

You can't stand back there and be looking for your third or fourth option when you are facing blitz pressure.

Wentz seems unable to make the quick decisions and get the ball out.

There is no future in the league for a guy like that.

 

[Boone]

Regardless of what one thinks of Wentz, quite possible he starts again for us. Heinicke took several unnecessary huge shots yesterday. He was getting treatment right up until he went back in again (a move I seriously question in a game that was solidly in hand). Why not put Howell end to finish there? Heinicke is a risk to get hurt at any time. And I don't think Rivera has the balls to go to Howell if he goes down.

I don't think Wentz is 'the answer'. But I also think he got no help early in the season (and I seriously doubt Heinicke wins us those early games either had he been in there given how the OL and defense were performing at the time). I don't know how Wentz would've performed these past 5 weeks but he's not without some skills and I think 'the team plays harder for Heinicke' stuff while true at some level is a little overblown.

 

[Bulldog]

Wentz had a healthy team the first couple of weeks and threw picks against Jacksonville where we just got out by the hair of our chinny, chin, chin.

The start against Detroit was absolutely ghastly on offense.

We should have won the Tennessee game and I can't believe Heinicke OR Sam Howell wouldn't have gotten the ball in the end zone with a first down at the two yard line.

How many quarterbacks with experience in the league throw a pick into coverage with a FIRST down inside the five?

If the guy is covered you throw the ball away and come back for second down.

If Wentz isn't showing that he at least has 'veteran' experience, ie the experience to do the responsible thing in crunch time whatever else his limitations then what is the club paying for?

Again, he looks like Joe Flacco at 37 except without the earlier career that Joe had in the early 2000's.

Could he get back on the field due to injury?

Sure. Anything's possible.

But it's in this franchise interests beyond 2022 to wash Wentz out of the system and flush his $28M salary to get perhaps 3 or 4 quality players in as free agents with that money.

Personally, I don't want to see Wentz again and I hope Taylor Heinicke's rabbit's foot keeps him upright for the balance of games.

 

[Boone]

There's no question that the entire team has improved it's play since Week 6 or so. If folks want to chalk that up to Heinicke alone, that's fine but I'm not on that bus. If the team has improved a lot the last 5 weeks, it's not unreasonable to assume Wentz might've performed better as well. No one wants to hear it but that doesn't make it an impossibility

No one is pining for Wentz or arguing he's the answer. What I said was, quite possible we see him again this year. And if we do, the assumption is that we don't win another game because he's not the offensive juggernaut Taylor Heinicke is. I don't know that I'm on that bus either.

As for next year, I don't know what is going to happen. At some level, I feel like they'd better hope Sam Howell is the next great thing because what is the alternative? Are folks really pining for another year of Taylor Heinicke? And what's the alternative if none of the guys on this roster are the answer? Draft a QB in a year we will not have a top 10 pick while our roster ages getting a rookie ready over the next 2-3 years? Sounds like starting over to me.

 

[DieselPwr44]

Would like to see more improvement,smarter play out of Heinicke. Just better in game decisions instead of 2-3 balls a game that are WTF throws, would help a lot.
Would seem to be an easy fix but he can’t help himself or so it seems.
I can understand giving your guy a chance on a 50/50 ball in one on one coverage but the double and triple coverage throws need to stop.
Saw some improvement on decisions yesterday in his willingness to throw the ball away down at the goal line instead of trying to force it but the team needs more than just that.

 

[Chris]

I am not advocating for Wentz, at all. My biggest concern with him is his apparent slowness at processing what he sees. Maybe that is due to his unfamiliarity with the offense, maybe time has passed him by and maybe injuries have stolen his soul. I don’t know. He is also not an accurate passer but neither is Heineke. Taylor clearly does have a horseshoe firmly planted in his back-side though that Carson doesn’t, to be fair. Taylor also has a good dose of the ‘it factor’ that Carson doesn’t, so…

The OL has undoubtedly improved, though I still wouldn’t call it good, and the scheme seems vastly different to me. I think that matters.

Can this team invest in both for next season with so many other talented players lining up for future deals?

 

[Boone]

Heinicke has definitely learned to throw the ball away but he seems to only do it on roll outs when there's not a clear window. When he is in the pocket, he appears not to realize he can also throw it away. I don't know how many times I've seen him throw into double and even triple coverage the past 5 games. But he does it a lot.

 

[DieselPwr44]

Heinicke has definitely learned to throw the ball away but he seems to only do it on roll outs when there's not a clear window. When he is in the pocket, he appears not to realize he can also throw it away. I don't know how many times I've seen him throw into double and even triple coverage the past 5 games. But he does it a lot.

Wonder if that goes back to He can’t see from behind the line theory?

 

[Chris]

I’m not sure it’s a theory.

 

[Bulldog]

Wentz played for several weeks to start the season and exhibited the same inconsistencies and flaws at age 30 that he has in the past.

From the multi pick game we almost lost to JAX to the 0-24 starts at Detroit and against Philly to the game ending goal line pick to lose a game against TN where he could have thrown the ball away on first down, I didn’t see any signs that he elevated this team, either through leadership, playmaking ability or smarts on the field.

And no one seemed to rally around him either.

More than anything else though the drive killing sacks Wentz took pointed to the fact his skill set is more backward looking than future looking.

Strong armed but largely immobile quarterbacks with a slower release are retro back to what we saw 20-30 years ago.

Looking around the NFL a number of quarterbacks have endured injuries to skill players or offensive linemen.

With the cap there is little quality experienced depth from team to team.

Quarterbacks have to be able to move and get the ball off under pressure to survive.

Wentz to me is slated to be the next backup to Dak in Dallas or Justin Herbert in LA in 2023.

I don’t see him starting any longer by design and certainly not for more than say an Andy Dalton is making in NO.

Dalton to me is a comp for Wentz.

 

[Boone]

This is a topic I try not to get into on other social media sites because many Taylor Heinicke stans are so easily triggered. You can't discuss Heinicke's latest performance without a) being accused of being a Wentz supporter, b) have idiots say '6-1' over and over again, or c) being painted as a kill joy.

Look. I just want to win. And Heinicke's performances of late have not been particularly aligned with that goal. Taylor Heinicke is always going to be a mixed bag. When Rivera was asked to assess Heinicke's performance after the game yesterday, his response was 'that's Taylor'. You're going to get some amazing plays and some head-scratching ones.

I don't really care for that response. All QBs have negative traits or tendencies - even the great ones. I get that. But because Heinicke is a fan favorite and a guy with little to no pedigree who has turned into a feel good underdog story, doesn't make him immune from criticism or accountability. That was a bad performance yesterday. He should've had at least 2 interceptions, and missed two TD throws (one with a very late throw, the other sailing it over a wide open Terry McLaurin). I hope the coaching staff is letting him know that behind the scenes. His job should not be guaranteed or secure. We will not be a playoff team or have a chance to win a playoff game if we manage to get there if he does not perform better down the stretch. He needs to be challenged and feel some pressure. The truth is, I think they'd be considering sitting him already if we didn't have a head case in Wentz and an unproven rookie in Howell. Right now, they likely feel there is no alternative but to ride it out.

The truth is, we should have lost that game yesterday. I'm not taking anything away from Daron or Fuller who both made an amazing play to save the day. But 99/100, a team in that situation is going down. We probably deserved to lose because of critical mistakes, including an inexcusable missed XP.

What's the point of all this? Heinicke has GOT to play better. We are a team, particularly with TH under center, that isn't going to score a lot of points to begin with. We have a tough schedule to close out this season and there is not an easy or guaranteed win left. Everyone, including our 50-50 QB, has got to contribute. Heinicke is not a magic talisman whose mere presence gives us a chance to win. He's the starting QB and of late, he's been more of a liability than a key to wins. That has got to change if this season is to be anything more than a 'better than expected' failure.

 

[burgold]

I agree. Taylor's best plays have often been about his escapability, but not about making the play. There will be a game in which three yards and a pound of dust won't hack it and we'll need to lean on the passing game. We need to be able to get Samuel and Dotson involved again. We need not throw gimmee interceptions each game and be grateful that sometimes they are dropped. I think what happened yesterday is that the plan was to blend the pass game into the run game until Heinicke had his , a big miss. At that point, Turner decided to turtle the game plan. Run, throw super safe passes, and throw only when there was no other reasonable option.

I don't see that as a game that we should have lost. I saw it as a 50/50 game against two remarkably similar and pretty one-dimensional teams. I will say having watched that game that I couldn't help thinking... I'm kind of glad the front office didn't opt for Marriota over Wentz. Then again, I'm not sure we wouldn't be a better team with Marriota starting.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

This is a topic I try not to get into on other social media sites because many Taylor Heinicke stans are so easily triggered. You can't discuss Heinicke's latest performance without a) being accused of being a Wentz supporter, b) have idiots say '6-1' over and over again, or c) being painted as a kill joy.

Look. I just want to win. And Heinicke's performances of late have not been particularly aligned with that goal. Taylor Heinicke is always going to be a mixed bag. When Rivera was asked to assess Heinicke's performance after the game yesterday, his response was 'that's Taylor'. You're going to get some amazing plays and some head-scratching ones.

I don't really care for that response. All QBs have negative traits or tendencies - even the great ones. I get that. But because Heinicke is a fan favorite and a guy with little to no pedigree who has turned into a feel good underdog story, doesn't make him immune from criticism or accountability. That was a bad performance yesterday. He should've had at least 2 interceptions, and missed two TD throws (one with a very late throw, the other sailing it over a wide open Terry McLaurin). I hope the coaching staff is letting him know that behind the scenes. His job should not be guaranteed or secure. We will not be a playoff team or have a chance to win a playoff game if we manage to get there if he does not perform better down the stretch. He needs to be challenged and feel some pressure. The truth is, I think they'd be considering sitting him already if we didn't have a head case in Wentz and an unproven rookie in Howell. Right now, they likely feel there is no alternative but to ride it out.

The truth is, we should have lost that game yesterday. I'm not taking anything away from Daron or Fuller who both made an amazing play to save the day. But 99/100, a team in that situation is going down. We probably deserved to lose because of critical mistakes, including an inexcusable missed XP.

What's the point of all this? Heinicke has GOT to play better. We are a team, particularly with TH under center, that isn't going to score a lot of points to begin with. We have a tough schedule to close out this season and there is not an easy or guaranteed win left. Everyone, including our 50-50 QB, has got to contribute. Heinicke is not a magic talisman whose mere presence gives us a chance to win. He's the starting QB and of late, he's been more of a liability than a key to wins. That has got to change if this season is to be anything more than a 'better than expected' failure.

Bro, you took these words right out of my mouth. Driving home yesterday, this is exactly what I was thinking about. I was waiting to see the video of all his throws before I give a detailed response, but after the first drive yesterday, he was bad, really bad. But they are finding a way to win.

 

[Chris]

Yeah, but I prefer to focus on which Jordan’s he will select this week.

 

[Boone]

I think Mariota is very much like Heinicke only with a better arm. It's probably just howling into the wind on my part as they'll stick with him unless he has a 3 INT game that we lose and nothing anyone says is likely going to change Heinicke's tendencies.

 

[DieselPwr44]

Like Taylor but agree with Boone.

It would not surprise me at all if the Giants stack the box and dare Heinicke to beat them.

He has to step up.The frustrating thing is that there are throws there,that aren’t hard throws, that he can take advantage of and keep the offense moving that doesn’t require forcing the ball into coverage.
Be smarter….

 

[DixieFlatline]

Can't disagree with any of this. He's been with 5 NFL teams over 7 years and yet still throws off his back foot and tries to force the ball into places instead of taking what might be there. I imagine the coaches believe that's who is his at this point which is why they went after a QB this past offseason. He has a lot of moxie which I love, but if you are still doing those things are you that teachable at this point? I know he hasn't gotten a ton of reps with these teams, but surely you are still working on mechanics, sitting in film rooms, etc.

 

[Henry]

Heinicke is the best QB on this roster for this team right now. That's it. His pocket awareness allows him to avoid sacks, keep plays alive and make something happen when the protection collapses. That works here because the team has learned to lean heavily on the run and plays stout defense. If the team starts relying on Heinicke to carry this team through the air, or if the team gets behind and is forced to throw ... that's not really in his wheelhouse.

Basically the coaching staff, to it's credit, has figured out how to win with the player's they've got. That doesn't mean they can't significantly upgrade the QB spot. It's something that definitely needs to be addressed, and not by trading for a journeyman like Wentz, or Smith, or Keenum, or whatever. Unless a bonafide Franchise QB falls into the team's lap, they need to suck it up, make a plan, and draft a QB that fits that plan. It would be great to keep Heinicke around to start until that rookie gets up to speed, and he'll be an excellent backup, but that's what I see his future with the Commanders being.