Skins Quotes 12/5: Jay Gruden

fansince62 said:
ahhh....so you're making the implicit assumption that everything is status quo ante...that nothing Gruden or his coaching staff has done, nothing like system changes...is accountable for the current mess? did Shanahan lay many of the seeds for current problems? sure. as did Shanahan's predecessors bequeath him with even worse chaos. but Shanahan isn't in charge and he isn't the one pridefully boasting the latest version of 3-9. that specific honor falls into jay Gruden's lap.
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Well, the assumption that new systems can hinder progress is not really a valid point either...have you seen the Green Bay Packers defense this year? Not world beaters, but under the new system they are a helluva lot better than they were last year.

Does Gruden get a pass? I don't know. I am not giving him one, but what I am not doing is making the bold assertion that he is not Head Coach material based on his first season as the head coach of such a dysfunctional organization.

But...wtf? I made that bold proclamation about RG3 before we ever drafted him that he would not last long in the NFL because of his reckless play. So...there's that.
 
stevenaa said:
I think we mostly agree. I do think the die on RG was cast with the injury and the screw job surrounding that. Had he not been injured, I think they had a plan that was workable. Start with what he was comfortable with and then transition in new concepts. But they screwed the pooch when the injury happened, they screwed the pooch the next year in rushing him back. That's all on the organization and Shanahan. Gruden inherited RG in a broke state, far from the QB he started out as. RG has continued to regress. We definitely agree on the piss poor team building. I'm sure you get 100% agreement on that. But it's too early on Gruden. He's come into a dysfunctional situation as a first year HC. His decisions and changes in the offseason will likely tell the story on him. Haslett has to go and there has to be an emphasis on quality big uglies to help the QB out.
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there's a lot of sense in what you post. on one level, we all know a coach needs more than one year to succeed. on another....I just think Gruden has been horribly amateurish. the worrisome sign for me is the constant bad play of this team regardless of who is under center. the stupid stuff, lack of hustle, etc., those are simply not signs of good coaching. that's what's worrisome. the rest is just having fun matching emotionalism with emotionalism.

in truth...I wish Gruden would also seal his yap. I agree with Mike that he has been very selective in his criticisms. he's clearly not in control of the situation. that is also disturbing.
 
Elephant said:
Well, the assumption that new systems can hinder progress is not really a valid point either...have you seen the Green Bay Packers defense this year? Not world beaters, but under the new system they are a helluva lot better than they were last year.

Does Gruden get a pass? I don't know. I am not giving him one, but what I am not doing is making the bold assertion that he is not Head Coach material based on his first season as the head coach of such a dysfunctional organization.

But...wtf? I made that bold proclamation about RG3 before we ever drafted him that he would not last long in the NFL because of his reckless play. So...there's that.
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1) the context of GB Packers - or any other team - is irrelevant to the facts of what happened to the washington redskins. in fact, in a humorous way...I would argue, if you insist on going down that road, that that substantiates the point that there are systemic problems in this organization. addendum: so...I didn't fully address your point, which was a good one on reread, well enough. you're right in presenting a counter-example - I'm wrong about the irrelevance. the issue then becomes whether it is a valid counter-example. and that is where I disagree. my argument all along has been that there are deep systemic problems in this franchise. ones that do not exist for the Green Bay Packers of the world.

2) credit where credit is due - you did take a look at those skinny legs, I remember, and predict longevity issues.

I'm not arguing with you El that Griffin didn't have mechanics issues. I'm arguing that the failure of a very talented, very bright, good kid owes in some degree to larger forces in a messed up franchise. I don't buy into the notion that he was doomed from the beginning. I don't look at people that way in my work life and I'm not going to do so here...well..except maybe for Colt McCoy. :)

anywho...sleep well tonight my friend...always challenging crossing swords/matching wits with you regardless of who happens to be right in any given instance.
 
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LOL at Gruden referring to RG3 as the backup QB every chance he got...good lord what a mess. The characters are all different but it's the same old story with this team...
 
GSF said:
LOL at Gruden referring to RG3 as the backup QB every chance he got...good lord what a mess. The characters are all different but it's the same old story with this team...
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He might be hoping to get fired at this point and collect 20M for watching sportscenter and coaching some HS team next year.
 
Elephant said:
...have you seen the Green Bay Packers defense this year? Not world beaters, but under the new system they are a helluva lot better than they were last year.
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Just one little point...

If our defense, played behind their offense & ST, I bet we'd look better too.
Or, if their defense, played behind our offense & ST, they would be far worse.

Yeah, you know that's right.
 
Ax said:
Just one little point...

If our defense, played behind their offense & ST, I bet we'd look better too.
Or, if their defense, played behind our offense & ST, they would be far worse.

Yeah, you know that's right.
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But that quote, in context, was supporting the claim that a new system does not necessarily equate to poor performance on the field. That claim was being offered to support an assertion fansince was making.
 
fansince62 said:
1) the context of GB Packers - or any other team - is irrelevant to the facts of what happened to the washington redskins. in fact, in a humorous way...I would argue, if you insist on going down that road, that that substantiates the point that there are systemic problems in this organization. addendum: so...I didn't fully address your point, which was a good one on reread, well enough. you're right in presenting a counter-example - I'm wrong about the irrelevance. the issue then becomes whether it is a valid counter-example. and that is where I disagree. my argument all along has been that there are deep systemic problems in this franchise. ones that do not exist for the Green Bay Packers of the world.
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No Al, the context of any team with a new system does not immediately spell disaster. You used that as a caveat to support your theory that is was the Redskins that ruined RG3.

I agree, this organization is a complete mess. Where we disagree is on the cause of RG3's demise. I say he was doomed to exactly what we see in the NFL from the start. You use your work place as an example not to judge a book by it's cover. Yet, here we are not even a full season in and you say Gruden is a panty waste.


Like I said last year, put Griffin on the 49ers or the Seahags and he is a better QB, even better than either of their QB's...maybe not Wilson, I think he is far better than I credited him, but still Robert would have done better than he has here. But he still would have been a one trick pony, he still would have gotten himself injured again with his style of play. And we still would have ended up watching his demise because on those teams, they would have ridden him harder. They would not even have bothered trying to make him a pocket passer.
 
Elephant said:
But that quote, in context, was supporting the claim that a new system does not necessarily equate to poor performance on the field. That claim was being offered to support an assertion fansince was making.
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I know. But it was a duck on the pond. So I shot it.

I'm a hunter. And a hunter's gotta hunt.

Jesse?:peaceful:
 
Elephant said:
No Al, the context of any team with a new system does not immediately spell disaster. You used that as a caveat to support your theory that is was the Redskins that ruined RG3.

I agree, this organization is a complete mess. Where we disagree is on the cause of RG3's demise. I say he was doomed to exactly what we see in the NFL from the start. You use your work place as an example not to judge a book by it's cover. Yet, here we are not even a full season in and you say Gruden is a panty waste.


Like I said last year, put Griffin on the 49ers or the Seahags and he is a better QB, even better than either of their QB's...maybe not Wilson, I think he is far better than I credited him, but still Robert would have done better than he has here. But he still would have been a one trick pony, he still would have gotten himself injured again with his style of play. And we still would have ended up watching his demise because on those teams, they would have ridden him harder. They would not even have bothered trying to make him a pocket passer.
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well...most likely we're going to get our chance to see. Griffin wasn't pre-ordained for failure. Let Chip Kelley work with him for a season. the only thing that matters is whether he can QB a team to victories/championships. let's see what a successful organization/coach can do with our cast-offs. no one here should have any problems with this. Griffin is a pre-ordained loser who doesn't fit Jay Gruden's system. cut our losses and move on to Colt. keeping him around, at this point, would be a very bad decision IMO. the resurrection boat has sailed and Griffin wasn't manning one of the oars.
 
I think the idea that Kelley would see Griffin as an upgrade to either Foles or Sanchez is a stretch. Griffin has looked awful. Only bad teams with NO quarterback are going to show any interest in him. But I agree that the current situation is poisonous. If Gruden is really your guy for the next 4-5 years, you have to move Griffin on.
 
Boone said:
I think the idea that Kelley would see Griffin as an upgrade to either Foles or Sanchez is a stretch. Griffin has looked awful. Only bad teams with NO quarterback are going to show any interest in him. But I agree that the current situation is poisonous. If Gruden is really your guy for the next 4-5 years, you have to move Griffin on.
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The Iggles system and offensive philosophy is a better match with Griffin's talents than Gruden's big ugly, drop back scheme.

I'd really like to see Kelley work w/Griffin to finally determine if Griffin is doomed or in fact can be a franchise QB. Kelley is always looking for new QBs. In my mind, this is a no brainer for the Iggles - we're most likely going to end up releasing the 2012 ROY. It's a freebee for any team that wants a look see.

Griffin looks shellshocked and dis-engaged to me (gee...how unlike so many other Skins players over the last decade). he appears to have shut down and wants out. letting him go becomes his chance to refocus, restart, re-dedicate. we'll see.
 
fansince62 said:
The Iggles system and offensive philosophy is a better match with Griffin's talents than Gruden's big ugly, drop back scheme.

I'd really like to see Kelley work w/Griffin to finally determine if Griffin is doomed or in fact can be a franchise QB. Kelley is always looking for new QBs.
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When did you become an Eagles' fan?
 
Elephant said:
When did you become an Eagles' fan?
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Not. just thinking through alternative futures and this one seems reasonable to me.

putting aside the fact that Iggles fans really are classless.....that organization has been a lot more successful than the Skins the last decade or so. so have the Gints....but they have a QB who is entrenched.

by all accounts Griffin does not possess much trade value among NFL executives. the situation is setting up perfectly where it will cost no one to bring him in - and the pressure will all be on Griffin to produce. the situation with the Skins is beyond repair. they both need to separate to move on to the next stage.
 
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Elephant said:
But that quote, in context, was supporting the claim that a new system does not necessarily equate to poor performance on the field. That claim was being offered to support an assertion fansince was making.
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if you're only point is that a new system is not a necessary or sufficient condition for failure....ok! that wasn't what I was asserting...but...again....ok! I was addressing the time Grffin had to absorb the new system - especially under live fire (for which there is no substitute). I get it.....5 games and a few preseason quarters is more than enough. that, then, will be the standard for all future Skins QBs.
 
Elephant said:
How? The Eagles are the division champs and they are doing it with a backup castoff. Why would they want the drama following this kid?

Source is in question…but take it for what it's worth.

Washington Redskins Star -- BLASTS RGIII ... 'No One Believes In Him Anymore' | TMZ.com
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cuz...like all teams...they want to investigate whether they can get better. you know...kinda like bringing Michael Vick onboard even though you have an established QB like McNabb. Kelley drafted a QB last season and there have been rumors in the press that he is not totally enamored with Foles.

why are you so dead set on hoping that another individual fails at what he wants to pursue in life?
 
fansince62 said:
cuz...like all teams...they want to investigate whether they can get better. you know...kinda like bringing Michael Vick onboard even though you have an established QB like McNabb. Kelley drafted a QB last season and there have been rumors in the press that he is not totally enamored with Foles.

why are you so dead set on hoping that another individual fails at what he wants to pursue in life?
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I never…I repeat NEVER said I wanted RG3 to fail. To suggest I did, infer or imply that I have is tantamount to a lie.

I have simply rubbed it in the face of those who scoffed and made me out to be a villain because I never liked the trade. I rooted for him, I hoped beyond hope he'd succeed. Turns out I was correct!

What I have never said is that I would cheer when RG3 went to Philthy and beat us all the time. Does that sound familiar? Why would you want a player to go to a division foe and beat the team you've been rooting for since 1962?
 
fansince62 said:
if you're only point is that a new system is not a necessary or sufficient condition for failure....ok! that wasn't what I was asserting...but...again....ok! I was addressing the time Grffin had to absorb the new system - especially under live fire (for which there is no substitute). I get it.....5 games and a few preseason quarters is more than enough. that, then, will be the standard for all future Skins QBs.
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You're condescending tone doesn't change the assertion you made and I countered. The Green Bay Packers defense made immediate strides at the beginning of this season, but yeah! That whole 5 games isn't enough time, huh?

And the reason he had all of 4 starts to prove himself is because he was injured…again! That supports my assertion from 3 years ago, doesn't it?
 
You guys are both condescending :)
 
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