Skins Quotes 12/5: Jay Gruden

[fansince62]

You say that like it's really been running in tip top shape the last 20 years.

Vinny,The Old Ball Coach and Jim Zorn say hello.

no I don't.

Vinny wasn't a coach.

Zorn never improved anything that was on a down hill slide.

I don't really care what others think in this regard: Shanhan started this team on the right path to recovery. his hubris and past FO screw-ups ultimately got in the way. I believe that Gruden will undo some of the progress Shanahan achieved. we shall see.

 

[Goaldeje]

If you're going to ignore Morris and Garcon, I guess we can't really have a conversation can we?

Shanny was a bastatd, who will be blamed for ruining Griffin if there is no recovery, but to pretend he brought nothing to the table os disingenuous.

I know you're wanting to support Gruden right now because you've been amazingly vocal about him. But pretending Shanny did nothing right at all lessens your credibility, imo.

 

[fansince62]

my worry: Shanahan didn't help but he did turn some things around. I have a nagging fear that by the time gruden is done this team and franchise are going to be really, really messed up.

Happy Friday Fan.

Can you cite a single example of anything that Shanny turned around please? I can't think of one.

The 2013 offense after playing our 3 firsts franchise QB on a bad wheel?

The defense? Did he turn the defense around?

Special teams? The worst special teams in NFL history? Did he turn that around?

Great drafts?

Less drama?

What were some of these things that he turned around?[/QUOTE]

well good day to you sunshine!

anyone can build strawman.

1) Great drafts? gee....that's certainly a set-up. the fact is that moving the team from gutting the draft to drafting at all....you know...for folks like Kerrigan...was a marked improvement over the past.

2) Compared to previous coaching staffs he ended the comedy that was bingo players moving into the coaching booth.

3) He cleaned up many of the messes Snyder/Cerrato created....sometimes taking too much time (see Haynesworth)....but he did it just the same.

4) He started changes in the lockerroom culture...some of which he undermined his last season....some of which Gruden is allowing to run amuck.

5) He took the team to its first play-off game in some time...though he ended up damaging what should have been a lengthy and successful career in the process.

6) He started the process of separating the Danny from football decision-making.

Does the strawman need more feeding?

But.....hey...Gruden...Gruden...he's our man....if he can't do it...nobody can!

I must confess: for the life of me I can't how understand how someone as famously successful in the Arena Football League as the esteemed Jay Gruden has been such a washout in the NFL. I mean...I get the reasoning by some that success in that league is a strong predictor of success in the NFL....afterall, there's a huuuuuge track record for this. I'm just miffed. you know what? I think it's just one of those things that can't be learned. I think coaching in the Arena League just doesn't prepare one for the NFL. No sense waiting for Gruden to learn - it won't happen. ew need to move on.

 

[stevenaa]

RG sucked from the get go this year. The second game he started out with some option stuff and it was looking better till he dislocated the ankle. Something changed then. Gruden may have simply decided he's not hitching his wagon to a guy that can't stay healthy, and 3 years in is basically a rookie work in progress. I don't think that's the case. I also think the constant reminder he's the backup is for Griffins ears. I have to believe there's friction behind the curtains and Griffin isn't doing what Gruden wants. It's the only thing that makes sense to me. But I don't sense from the words that him being done completely with Griffin is a done deal. Time will tell. It is interesting we're not hearing reports of team mates coming to his defense, even as un-named sources. At least I've missed them if they have.

 

[Boone]

Let's be reasonable guys. First of all, Shanahan did do some good things. Anyone who ignores those just isn't being honest or fair. And to say Gruden is a washout at head coach when he hasn't even finished his first season - that's equally silly. I don't like a lot of what I've seen from Gruden, but it is very early. Truth is, we'd have been calling for Gibbs head in his first season if the interwebz had been around then.

 

[Boone]

On Cooley's show today they were speculating about the possiblity that Gruden himself was Reid's source, and that it's possible Snyder was Schefter's source. If that's true, that would be a disastrous sign. I hope none of it's true. We've got enough challenges just with the football team.

 

[fansince62]

Let's be reasonable guys. First of all, Shanahan did do some good things. Anyone who ignores those just isn't being honest or fair. And to say Gruden is a washout at head coach when he hasn't even finished his first season - that's equally silly. I don't like a lot of what I've seen from Gruden, but it is very early. Truth is, we'd have been calling for Gibbs head in his first season if the interwebz had been around then.

IRT Gruden. there's nothing personal. I'm simply applying the same 4 game audition logic - in fact giving him twice that - to accomplish something...ANYTHING - that he accords others.

 

[fansince62]

On Cooley's show today they were speculating about the possiblity that Gruden himself was Reid's source, and that it's possible Snyder was Schefter's source. If that's true, that would be a disastrous sign. I hope none of it's true. We've got enough challenges just with the football team.

I listened to that.

The other funny info was montgomery is now the starting center for the Broncos.

 

[fansince62]

RG sucked from the get go this year. The second game he started out with some option stuff and it was looking better till he dislocated the ankle. Something changed then. Gruden may have simply decided he's not hitching his wagon to a guy that can't stay healthy, and 3 years in is basically a rookie work in progress. I don't think that's the case. I also think the constant reminder he's the backup is for Griffins ears. I have to believe there's friction behind the curtains and Griffin isn't doing what Gruden wants. It's the only thing that makes sense to me. But I don't sense from the words that him being done completely with Griffin is a done deal. Time will tell. It is interesting we're not hearing reports of team mates coming to his defense, even as un-named sources. At least I've missed them if they have.

and no teammate is saying "Colt's the answer". that's a distractor. if you're on the roster and you know the coach is conducting a very public battle with a player - especially on a team headed for major personnel changes over the next 2-3 years - do you line up w/the tgt of the coaches ire?

btw...I heard Sanatana on the radio the other day state that Griffin has some critical problems to fix...but that he believes Griffin will be a star in the league one day.

Griffin is done in DC. there is no way he or the coach can resurrect this relationship.

per previous....they need to release Griffin at the end of the season. let him go to the Iggles or Boys or give him some time with Bellichek. we know it will be wasted money but at least he'll get one last chance in a stable environment.

"Let my people go"!!!!

 

[stevenaa]

IRT Gruden. there's nothing personal. I'm simply applying the same 4 game audition logic - in fact giving him twice that - to accomplish something...ANYTHING - that he accords others.

In fairness, RG has far more than 4 games behind him. Gruden isn't making any decisions in a vacuum of just this years performance. I don't know what to make of the guy yet. I like some of what I see. I'm torn on the public comments. Part of me sides with Boone that he's displayed poor personnel management skills. But, we don't know what's happening behind closed doors, so it's hard to decide. There have been some successful head coaches who were brutally honest about player performance. I don't sense yet that the teams bailed on him from what I can see, and that says something considering all the craziness. I guess I just don't see it as completely black and white, and only the lens of time will clarify things.

But if Gruden and Snyder are leaking things, then stick a fork in it.

 

[Elephant]

no I don't.

Vinny wasn't a coach.

Zorn never improved anything that was on a down hill slide.

I don't really care what others think in this regard: Shanhan started this team on the right path to recovery. his hubris and past FO screw-ups ultimately got in the way. I believe that Gruden will undo some of the progress Shanahan achieved. we shall see.

Yup, and here we sit on top!

 

[fansince62]

In fairness, RG has far more than 4 games behind him. Gruden isn't making any decisions in a vacuum of just this years performance. I don't know what to make of the guy yet. I like some of what I see. I'm torn on the public comments. Part of me sides with Boone that he's displayed poor personnel management skills. But, we don't know what's happening behind closed doors, so it's hard to decide. There have been some successful head coaches who were brutally honest about player performance. I don't sense yet that the teams bailed on him from what I can see, and that says something considering all the craziness. I guess I just don't see it as completely black and white, and only the lens of time will clarify things.

But if Gruden and Snyder are leaking things, then stick a fork in it.

I do believe you're giving too much maneuvering room to Gruden. He's the HC. He's ultimately accountable for everything that happens on the field. with very, very, very few exceptions...the performance by all concerned has been bad to horrendous. Gruden is accountable.

As for RGIII....depends how you look at it. Gruden was hired in what..January? So Griffin is learning a new system. doesn't play much in the preseason, plays one game plus a quarter and then boom...is down for the count. that's not much time in the system working live fire. Griffin as obviously deteriorated...no argument. I just don't buy into the notion that he has the equivalent of 3 years under his belt and should be an accomplished QB by now. I think the system failed him. how much of that was his doing isn't clear. others can speculate along other lines...I'm pretty confident that the the etam failed miserably in developing a plan for maturing this kid into a long-term viable product. everything from crap o-lines/defenses to coaching staff/system changes to behind the scenes coaching turmoil had a role to play. THE TEAM, IMO, DIDN'T FOLLOW UP ON A COSTLY INVESTMENT BY BUILDING A SOLID TEAM AROUND GRIFFIN SO HE COULD GROW. Griffin has to make his own bed. what I'm leaning into is that this team is systemically hosed up. for those who enjoy stats....I respectfully offer that if ever there was a strong signal of serious problems...at the core...it is the performance and record of this team on the field through two different coaches.

 

[Elephant]

I must confess: for the life of me I can't how understand how someone as famously successful in the Arena Football League as the esteemed Jay Gruden has been such a washout in the NFL. I mean...I get the reasoning by some that success in that league is a strong predictor of success in the NFL....afterall, there's a huuuuuge track record for this. I'm just miffed. you know what? I think it's just one of those things that can't be learned. I think coaching in the Arena League just doesn't prepare one for the NFL. No sense waiting for Gruden to learn - it won't happen. ew need to move on.

Because there were a few of us who correctly suggested Shanahan left this team as bad as when he took over. But you and others seem to think we should have been competitive this year. Look at the predictions at the beginning of the season.

The team wasn't that good when Shanahan left, and it isn't that good now. You, yourself have been vocal about the lack of talent and now you want to put it all on the coach!

 

[fansince62]

Yup, and here we sit on top!

that's not the measuring rod...and not the original claim.

nice try just the same!

 

[Elephant]

that's not the measuring rod...and not the original claim.

nice try just the same!

I saw your measuring stick and it is full of flaws.

 

[fansince62]

Because there were a few of us who correctly suggested Shanahan left this team as bad as when he took over. But you and others seem to think we should have been competitive this year. Look at the predictions at the beginning of the season.

The team wasn't that good when Shanahan left, and it isn't that good now. You, yourself have been vocal about the lack of talent and now you want to put it all on the coach!

geez..I expected better. get it right. I said...as you even quoted...that he started the team on the path to recovery.

if you want to review the Zorn/Vinny years and prior - you know...what Shanahan inherited - we can do that. I never stated he succeeded in over-coming all problems or leaving a viable product in tact. though, again when compared to his predecessors, he did take the team on a nice run into the playoffs. or does that not count when adding up the pluses and minuses?

 

[fansince62]

I saw your measuring stick and it is full of flaws.

well...it's a free country! and you are endowed with the full battery of liberties and privileges to be wrong!

 

[Elephant]

geez..I expected better. get it right. I said...as you even quoted...that he started the team on the path to recovery.

if you want to review the Zorn/Vinny years and prior - you know...what Shanahan inherited - we can do that. I never stated he succeeded in over-coming all problems or leaving a viable product in tact. though, again when compared to his predecessors, he did take the team on a nice run into the playoffs. or does that not count when adding up the pluses and minuses?

Actually, you did this past off-season. You were one of those who kept arguing Shanahan left us in a better position than when he got here and I am telling you now as this season unfolds...we weren't.

 

[stevenaa]

I do believe you're giving too much maneuvering room to Gruden. He's the HC. He's ultimately accountable for everything that happens on the field. with very, very, very few exceptions...the performance by all concerned has been bad to horrendous. Gruden is accountable.

As for RGIII....depends how you look at it. Gruden was hired in what..January? So Griffin is learning a new system. doesn't play much in the preseason, plays one game plus a quarter and then boom...is down for the count. that's not much time in the system working live fire. Griffin as obviously deteriorated...no argument. I just don't buy into the notion that he has the equivalent of 3 years under his belt and should be an accomplished QB by now. I think the system failed him. how much of that was his doing isn't clear. others can speculate along other lines...I'm pretty confident that the the etam failed miserably in developing a plan for maturing this kid into a long-term viable product. everything from crap o-lines/defenses to coaching staff/system changes to behind the scenes coaching turmoil had a role to play. THE TEAM, IMO, DIDN'T FOLLOW UP ON A COSTLY INVESTMENT BY BUILDING A SOLID TEAM AROUND GRIFFIN SO HE COULD GROW. Griffin has to make his own bed. what I'm leaning into is that this team is systemically hosed up. for those who enjoy stats....I respectfully offer that if ever there was a strong signal of serious problems...at the core...it is the performance and record of this team on the field through two different coaches.

I think we mostly agree. I do think the die on RG was cast with the injury and the screw job surrounding that. Had he not been injured, I think they had a plan that was workable. Start with what he was comfortable with and then transition in new concepts. But they screwed the pooch when the injury happened, they screwed the pooch the next year in rushing him back. That's all on the organization and Shanahan. Gruden inherited RG in a broke state, far from the QB he started out as. RG has continued to regress. We definitely agree on the piss poor team building. I'm sure you get 100% agreement on that. But it's too early on Gruden. He's come into a dysfunctional situation as a first year HC. His decisions and changes in the offseason will likely tell the story on him. Haslett has to go and there has to be an emphasis on quality big uglies to help the QB out.

 

[fansince62]

Actually, you did this past off-season. You were one of those who kept arguing Shanahan left us in a better position than when he got here and I am telling you now as this season unfolds...we weren't.

ahhh....so you're making the implicit assumption that everything is status quo ante...that nothing Gruden or his coaching staff has done, nothing like system changes...is accountable for the current mess? did Shanahan lay many of the seeds for current problems? sure. as did Shanahan's predecessors bequeath him with even worse chaos. but Shanahan isn't in charge and he isn't the one pridefully boasting the latest version of 3-9. that specific honor falls into jay Gruden's lap.