Shanahan on franchise QB's

[Elephant]

Caller of "Rocket Screen" in SB XVIII. Weak sauce.

I just in my mouth a little!

 

[Boone]

The one thing that's always jumped out at me regarding Gibbs was how the kind, gentle, professorial manner belies who the guy really is. Ultra-competitive, tough, and determined. And most of all always, always in control.

All you ever had to do was to see him striding through the tunnel a couple times after a loss with his jaw set and all business.

No one knows the exact relationship between the three unless you were in the room with them. But there was, from my observations, no doubt about who was calling the shots.

 

[Ax]

I just in my mouth a little!

Sorry brother.

I hurled typing it.

 

[Yusuf06]

The one thing that's always jumped out at me regarding Gibbs was how the kind, gentle, professorial manner belies who the guy really is. Ultra-competitive, tough, and determined. And most of all always, always in control.

All you ever had to do was to see him striding through the tunnel a couple times after a loss with his jaw set and all business.

No one knows the exact relationship between the three unless you were in the room with them. But there was, from my observations, no doubt about who was calling the shots.

This. I wrote at the time Gibbs returned that the only reason Cerrato was still in place was because Gibbs wanted to throw Danny a bone and as such, Cerrato was a useful fool. Our personnel problems under Gibbs are mostly his fault. In Gibbs' favor I will point out that after Cerrato got dumped we did discover that the team had been giving the scouting department inadequate resources. It's likely he simply didn't have enough information to make fully informed choices and being out of the league as long as he was, probably didn't know what he didn't know.

Ultimately, I'm just grateful the guy came back and gave us the only paloff run we've had in recent memory. I'm not going to trash him because he wasn't able to overcome the crappy organizational structure of our F.O.

 

[fansince62]

The problem with Gibbs2 is that it's unfairly judged in comparison to Gibbs1.
If Gibbs1 is taken away from the equation, Gibbs2 was, hands down, the best football we've seen around here in 20yrs. Including the last 2. Now, that might not be saying a whole lot, but it is the fact.


Desmond Howard, Tory Smith, Walter Murray="Stuff missed" during Gibbs1, if that's what you're referring to. And one ill fated time out attempt shouldn't mark the man for life. Which coach was it that just tried the same thing, only he didn't have a timeout or it would have been a penalty, in this years playoffs? Shanny doesn't make mistakes? Hell, most coaches in the NFL do. Why does Gibbs2 get held to a higher standard? Oh, that's right, Gibbs1. Caller of "Rocket Screen" in SB XVIII. Weak sauce.


The "Common Sense" rule of thumb overrides the "myth" factor here, for me. Dan Snyder seems a hero worshiper. Gibbs, or at least Gibbs1, is everybody in Redskins Nation's hero. So, suffice it to say, JJG had final say everywhere he wanted it. And that's just using my own common sense, from a distance, sitting behind a computer monitor, just like you and Lanky.

Om, Boone, and the boys, spent a little time in the building. Gives them a leg up on the three of us, in my mind. Even if they were/are worshipers too.

Ax....what I was suggesting was that Gibbs II wasn't as engaged as Gibbs I - who lived in the office round the clock. the guy was out of football for 12 or so years and returned quite a bit older. and returned to a very different game....including cap management, etc. hero worshipper or not....Snyder is also a businessman...IT WAS HIS MONEY GIBBS II was playing with. I believe there was a lot more inter-play than most think.

in the grand scheme of things...Snyder or Gibbs II...they both failed at finding a franchise QB. and so...here we are.

 

[fansince62]

This. I wrote at the time Gibbs returned that the only reason Cerrato was still in place was because Gibbs wanted to throw Danny a bone and as such, Cerrato was a useful fool. Our personnel problems under Gibbs are mostly his fault. In Gibbs' favor I will point out that after Cerrato got dumped we did discover that the team had been giving the scouting department inadequate resources. It's likely he simply didn't have enough information to make fully informed choices and being out of the league as long as he was, probably didn't know what he didn't know.

Ultimately, I'm just grateful the guy came back and gave us the only paloff run we've had in recent memory. I'm not going to trash him because he wasn't able to overcome the crappy organizational structure of our F.O.

I'm not trashing Gibbs II. gimme a break.

 

[Neophyte]

in the grand scheme of things...Snyder or Gibbs II...they both failed at finding a franchise QB. and so...here we are.

I think you can make the argument that Gibbs likely wasn't even looking for a "franchise QB", per se. The man is in the HOF because he is the only coach in the history of the NFL to win Super Bowls with more than two QB's and only one other coach has won with more than ONE QB. No small feat, my friends.

Consider the coaches who couldn't win it with it a second QB:

Shula
Landry
Noll

But my guess is Gibbs considered a "franchise QB" to be something of an unnecessary luxury. Shoot, he was a pair of contact lenses away from an NFC Championship berth with Brunell playing QB. Probably fair to say that Gibbs is right in thinking its a luxury when Gibbs is the Head Coach.

 

[Ax]

I believe there was a lot more inter-play than most think.

in the grand scheme of things...Snyder or Gibbs II...they both failed at finding a franchise QB. and so...here we are.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree regarding the first line.

As for the second, every team/GM in the league that doesn't have one, which is most of them, has been looking, and so far failed to find a franchise QB. Why should Gibbs, who Neo has pointed out, never had one before, held to a higher standard.

Where's Bobby Beathard's franchise QB?

 

[fansince62]

I think you can make the argument that Gibbs likely wasn't even looking for a "franchise QB", per se. The man is in the HOF because he is the only coach in the history of the NFL to win Super Bowls with more than two QB's and only one other coach has won with more than ONE QB. No small feat, my friends.

Consider the coaches who couldn't win it with it a second QB:

Shula
Landry
Noll

But my guess is Gibbs considered a "franchise QB" to be something of an unnecessary luxury. Shoot, he was a pair of contact lenses away from an NFC Championship berth with Brunell playing QB. Probably fair to say that Gibbs is right in thinking its a luxury when Gibbs is the Head Coach.

maybe. but the bottom line is he failed...and then he quit.

 

[Miles Monroe]

All you ever had to do was to see him striding through the tunnel a couple times after a loss with his jaw set and all business.

Hell, I saw him outside the locker room after we beat the snot out of the Lions, and he kind of frightened me...

 

[fansince62]

gibbs failed? and quit?

really? how about the fact that we made the playoffs 2 of his first 4 years back. how about the fact that sean was killed and threw him off. or how about the fact of all the personal stuff that he was going thru with his grandson that was WAY more important to him than a game.

failed? no man, Joe Gibbs is never a failure. he turned this team around and was headed in the right direction.

Mike....failed as in failed to find a QB.

I'm a JG guy for who he was/is. but the fact is JGII didn't accomplish much and ended with a sputter. and precisely for many of the reasons you present...I don't think he was 110% into it as he was the first time around.

2004 6-10
2005 10-6
2006 5-11
2007 9-7

30W-34L

He left in year 4 of a 5 year contract. call it what you want. maybe the emotional strain of family events was too much. fact is he didn't complete his contract. if memory serves....the decision was a surprise...and ultimately led to the beautiful experience that was promoting a QB coach with no coordinator experience to HC.

 

[Neophyte]

maybe. but the bottom line is he failed...and then he quit.

He failed in your estimation but I don't think he judges things on your scale. I'm sure he would say he failed but I doubt very much he thinks much about not finding a franchise QB. My guess is he considers not adding a 4th Lombardi to the collection in Ashburn the failure. Not the QB situation. That is you projecting and doing it in hind sight.

 

[Elephant]

He failed in your estimation but I don't think he judges things on your scale. I'm sure he would say he failed but I doubt very much he thinks much about not finding a franchise QB. My guess is he considers not adding a 4th Lombardi to the collection in Ashburn the failure. Not the QB situation. That is you projecting and doing it in hind sight.

And I have a suspicion he might feel he failed Sean Taylor, but that is projection on my part. What I remember most during that loss to Buffalo after Sean passed was the look on Coach Gibbs' face. He looked truly defeated and I would assert it had very little to do with football that day.

 

[fansince62]

He failed in your estimation but I don't think he judges things on your scale. I'm sure he would say he failed but I doubt very much he thinks much about not finding a franchise QB. My guess is he considers not adding a 4th Lombardi to the collection in Ashburn the failure. Not the QB situation. That is you projecting and doing it in hind sight.

that's cool.

here's what I know...and here's what you know:

- JG is a great man

- JG I won multiple SBs

- JG II restored some discipline though player direct liaisons into the FO still persisted

- JG II did manage to get into the playoffs

- JG II teams were weak offensively

- JG II teams never won the NFE; overall he had a losing record; he left at the end of 4 seasons......

Kinda silly including what JG thinks relative to what I think.....I get the playground thinking behind it, but it doesn't really matter. And I do appreciate your steadfast reluctance to address the fact of a losing record. We all love Joe......we're all glad he came back. but I'm not going to allow that admiration to get in the way of seeing the facts for what they were...that's a mindset best confined to those with ulterior motives and hero worship at the expense of truth.

 

[fansince62]

youre right; we went from being a joke in the NFC to a contender that made the playoffs 2 of his 4 years. how many years in a row before that did we miss them?

saying "he quit' is just silly and you obviously didnt know why he walked away.

ok...change the verbiage. change the history that Snyder was caught by surprise. the bottom line is that he walked away. which supports my contention that...unlike JG I....he wasn't "all in". nothing wrong with that....not a criticism. I think he was older, had distractions that weren't there during JG I, needed assistance learning the nuances of a game that had changed a lot since he left, perhaps misunderstood the magnitude of the mess he had to fix, wasn't totally ready for the players of the 2000s (vice 1980s), etc., etc. I was as happy as anyone else he came back. But there were pronounced differences and...IMO....because of many factors....that included power sharing with Snyderatto. He fixed some things and never fixed others. what he produced never went anywhere after he left the second time - i.e., not much of a foundation. again....multiple reasons...including a FA dependency that never rebuilt that foundation.

 

[Elephant]

Mike, we ran off 4 in a row to end the '07 season earning a trip to the playoffs.

 

[Elephant]

dude, his grandson had leukemia. i think that if you know Coach Gibbs at all you know his family takes priority and its completely understandable why he walked away from coaching to spend more time with that little boy.

I don't think fan is disputing that Mike. There is a legitimacy for the early departure from his contract. But that does support what fan is saying, Gibbs was not as committed the second time around as he was the first. Even so, he still did a tremendous job with the talent he had in his second tenure with all the peripheral issues.

Edit: Many do not give him the credit he deserves for the job he did the 2nd time around because he didn't win a Super Bowl. Gibbs drew blood from a turnip with that group he assembled after Spurrier destroyed this team.

 

[fansince62]

the guy took over for steve ****ing spurrier..

he helped the trade of coles for moss
he was part of the draft of sean taylor
he picked up Shawn Springs
the even trade of Portis for Bailey

youre 10000% right; he got blood from a turnip and we were headed in the right direction still when Zorn was brought in. I cant see how Gibbs is to blame for any of the woes we have. he seemed to be just as committed as he was the first time but the game had changed too much and the "talent" he had wasnt the same.

not passing blame Mike. it is what it was. he fixed some things and didn't fix others.

I still hold the man in the highest regard. still have his autographed photo in my study. but I also think JG II wasn't "all that" as a football leader. I think all the issues wore him down...he just didn't have the energy he had on the first go-around.

 

[ntotoro]

not passing blame Mike. it is what it was. he fixed some things and didn't fix others.

I still hold the man in the highest regard. still have his autographed photo in my study. but I also think JG II wasn't "all that" as a football leader. I think all the issues wore him down...he just didn't have the energy he had on the first go-around.

I don't think anyone can deny that. The glaring thing will always be the lack of a franchise QB, which is Gibbs II's ultimate sin. He thought Campbell was a franchise QB.

The problem? It was 2005, not 1987.

Nick

 

[Lanky Livingston]

I'm not sure Gibbs II made us a "contender" - we had to run off epic win streaks in both years we made the playoffs to even get in, after going 5-6 and 5-7 before the streaks.

You could make the argument that we were the "hot" team both times and that nobody wanted to play us (just ask Tampa), but I'm not sure we were ever "contenders." Although, if Rogers catches that dadgum pass........