Shanahan is Stealing the Money

[Fear The Spear]

this has plagued the Skins since forever - well before Snyder, Shanahan - stupid, stupid penalties at the most inopportune times. bonehead execution by vets who, at this point, should know the basics. yesterday was just another example in a long list: not knowing the plays (how many time have we seen this? cmon guys it's the 15th game of the season); players not keeping to design (route running, holding gaps on defense, etc., etc.); players forgetting to run on the field; QBs not watching the 25 sec clock…..and on and on…just stupid, stupid stuff professional teams do not do.

It seems incredibly ironic for a Shanahan-team to have these kinds of issues, since he falls under the "disclipinarian", "controlling" type of coach.
So, what that tells me, is that the coach has lost the team, and lost respect from the team, IMO

 

[Bulldog]

That's why you really can't separate out the particular failure.

Shanahan has made mistakes on personnel, but look at the game day coaching.

From the poor clock management on more than the odd occasion to the complete breakdown of the special teams and the ultimate failure to establish and perform the 3-4 on defense, it has been a debacle.

When talking about whether Snyder will look impatient for firing Shanahan Doc Walker laughed and said any coach in Year 4 of a 5 year program that goes 3-13 should expect to be fired in any professional league.

 

[tshile]

I think Cousins has played well all things considered. Though I don't think anyone was talking about how great he was, but whatever.

If we could take Griffin's talent/ability and combine it with Cousins ability to go through progressions and move the pocket we'd have a great quarterback.

One thing that became clear to me yesterday, Cousins doesn't appear to have command of the field/team when he's out there the way Griffin does. It's just a weird feeling I got watching him yesterday.

Which makes sense if you subscribe to the idea that Cousins plays like a ball distributor and Griffin plays like a playmaker.

 

[micks113]

Cousins under center because we were running the ball. That keeps their D guessing.

No secrets to this team. We are a bad football team, led by horrible coaching. Must first change the coaching then acquire the players, save those who fit the new scheme, a complete rebuild is in order.

 

[tshile]

they also run two totally different offenses which was weird to me as well. they have Cousins under center most of the time and Griff is in shotgun. Not sure WHY or how much it effects what defenses do, but its something I really noticed yesterday.

Actually they're the exact same offense. There's only two differences
- The way they run it is clearly different
- They call pistol formations with Griffin but not with cousins. The offense is otherwise exactly the same, even the playcall is the exact same they just say 'Pistol' to start the playcall out.

that comes from cooley and kyle and everyone covering the team.

that's how differently the two play, same offense seems different though.

 

[Ax]

I like Cousins. But he strikes me as another Rex Grossman. Hope some dummy will give us a 2nd, and we take it.

 

[tshile]

doesn't make sense then to start Griff in the shotgun most of the time and Cousins under center. It makes the defenses believe that he is looking to scramble at all times.

well, from what i've heard the pistol is supposed to help griffin given the offense he's accustomed to and what he's run before. i think it's also supposed to use his speed to scare defenses and make them account for it.

the only thing I know is that the only difference is the pistol, which is a formation, but otherwise the offense is exactly the same down to the play calls. yet they look completely different. even our o Line looks completely different with cousins back there.

the one thing i've learned over the last 6 months from listening to everyone is that apparently going through college in a non-NFL system is a much bigger deal than any of us really counted on before. there's a reason cousins has received praise (dating back to 2012 offeseason, not just this past one) for certain things and griffin didn't. it was subtle, but it was there if you were looking for it. i think if you've watched cousins and griffin it becomes crystal clear what they were saying.

there are things griffin can learn from watching cousins play these last 3 games. i hope he's paying attention.

though, given the probability of the entire coaching staff being blown out early next week it may not wind up mattering. i think knowing how to move a pocket and go through progressions is important in every offense, but what do I know?

 

[Lanky Livingston]

they also run two totally different offenses which was weird to me as well. they have Cousins under center most of the time and Griff is in shotgun. Not sure WHY or how much it effects what defenses do, but its something I really noticed yesterday.

Actually they are running the exact same offense, except with Griffin in there they run 4-5 read option plays a game. Mark Bullock did a great breakdown of this for WaPo.

 

[fansince62]

It seems incredibly ironic for a Shanahan-team to have these kinds of issues, since he falls under the "disclipinarian", "controlling" type of coach.
So, what that tells me, is that the coach has lost the team, and lost respect from the team, IMO

and my answer is that his has been going on for nearly 20 years. it is way beyond Shanahan.

 

[Fear The Spear]

Actually they're the exact same offense. There's only two differences
- The way they run it is clearly different
- They call pistol formations with Griffin but not with cousins. The offense is otherwise exactly the same, even the playcall is the exact same they just say 'Pistol' to start the playcall out.

that comes from cooley and kyle and everyone covering the team.

that's how differently the two play, same offense seems different though.

Griffin has a deeper voice than Cousins, when he calls "Yellow 5", though.
Which is weird, because his speaking voice is so high-ptched. It sounds nothing at all like his football voice.

 

[fansince62]

That's why you really can't separate out the particular failure.

Shanahan has made mistakes on personnel, but look at the game day coaching.

From the poor clock management on more than the odd occasion to the complete breakdown of the special teams and the ultimate failure to establish and perform the 3-4 on defense, it has been a debacle.

When talking about whether Snyder will look impatient for firing Shanahan Doc Walker laughed and said any coach in Year 4 of a 5 year program that goes 3-13 should expect to be fired in any professional league.

well, yea. but in my mind, what we are seeing now is the usual kneejerking that goes on in the media. and it will have predictable results. bad as things are now - record notwithstanding - it isn't even remotely close to where it was from the Spurrier years forward.

no doubt the Shanahan regime has made mistakes - big ones. No doubt the guy keeps tripping over his ego. but everyone seems to pretend the idiocies/damage that were Vinny/Snyder are responsible for simply disappear in a year. or that the cap hits just magically have no long-term impacts (like STs anyone?), or that 2 number ones and a number 2 are easily shredded (one reason I don't support cutting ties with Rak - a team can't keep wasting its top picks and expect anything good to happen). this is a very complicated situation and while it sounds grand to blithely claim 5 years is enough (heck I have!) - I'm not so sure. restaffing & developing the talent base? changing the culture? changing the owner? hiring a professional FO? getting all that done (after a wasted first year) and then all the other problems? in my mind, Shanahan has improved things. not enough…but he's definitely started things in the right direction. the question ought to be whether the next steps in planning are the right ones. I haven't heard much in that respect. it's all been about some 23 year old QB's relationship to the coach and owner - a total distractor IMO.

getting rid of Shanahan cuz the results have been pathetic aint enough. what is the vision? who is out there that can carry the vision forward? what are the impacts of such a move in the short-run? how successful have we been in the past with these summary executions? so what if Shanahan is covering his arse over next year - you would too if 7 million were at stake.

what is the game plan? change everything yet again? well, that certainly has enjoyed an outstanding track record in Redskin land since 1992.

 

[fansince62]

Actually they're the exact same offense. There's only two differences
- The way they run it is clearly different
- They call pistol formations with Griffin but not with cousins. The offense is otherwise exactly the same, even the playcall is the exact same they just say 'Pistol' to start the playcall out.

that comes from cooley and kyle and everyone covering the team.

that's how differently the two play, same offense seems different though.

Romo demonstrated something yesterday that Cousins can do to a lesser degree…and that RG doesn't do: use the pocket to advantage….look to pass first when scrambling. I don't think the o-line is performing any better for Cousins, but he sure doesn't seem under as much pressure as RG constantly did. then again, Cousins has been facing comparatively weaker defenses so the comparison may not be fair.

 

[Bulldog]

I find it amazing that folks out there can look at Cousins starting TWO games and already come to a judgment about his ceiling in the NFL

Didn't we just watch Nick Foles go through a rough rookie season starting games and then blossom the next season?

Doesn't Foles now have a 25/2 TD to INT ratio and 63% completion percentage?

Cousins may be a star or a backup long-term, only time will tell.

But more than 2 weeks will be necessary to find out.

And how about giving him a healthy Jordan Reed, Leonard Hankerson and Darrel Young?

Griffin had these players for most of his starts while Cousins only has Garcon.

Davis is a joke. Robinson is a joke. Morgan is a joke.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

so its not shanahans fault, we just dont have the talent, yet this roster is almost 100% turned over under shanahans watch. this means these players are the players we can expect under his regime. he has never shown an inkling of a clue when it comes to defence, thats what got him fired in denver, yet some of you guys were arguing that " an nfl coach would know more than a fan knows about defence.

well exhibit a - 3 wins
exhibit b- no quick fix that will work in a single year on either O or D, lots of holes to plug and yet again few draft choices to do it with.

to the people who are saying " we wont get better if we get rid of shanny and we might get worse. " THREE WINS. a monkey with a crayon could do better than 3 wins. Hasletts scheme is terrible. period. as in epic bad. the idea that you can win games without Olinemen has been pretty soundly debunked as well.

anyway, we need a football oriented GM, allen can work cap magic, keep him on on the business side, get a decent young coach who works hard, hire a staff based on skill not on " yes shanny I will do everything you say oh lord and master" and demonstrate that you are BUILDING A DAMN TEAM, not just throwing others teams trash on the field.

 

[Bulldog]

I was shocked to see Shanahan go dumpster diving for his offensive line.

Montgomery was a seventh round pick who was cut by the Eagles. Lichtensteiger was a Denver pick that had been later cut, picked up and waived by the Cleveland Browns. Tyler Polumbus was in and out of 3 or 4 organizations. Chester was a draft pick of the Ravens who decided not to resign him because he wasn't strong enough at the point of attack.

Those are the players alongside Trent Williams that are protecting a quarterback you just gave up a half decade worth of high draft choices for.

 

[tshile]

well, yea. but in my mind, what we are seeing now is the usual kneejerking that goes on in the media. and it will have predictable results. bad as things are now - record notwithstanding - it isn't even remotely close to where it was from the Spurrier years forward.

no doubt the Shanahan regime has made mistakes - big ones. No doubt the guy keeps tripping over his ego. but everyone seems to pretend the idiocies/damage that were Vinny/Snyder are responsible for simply disappear in a year. or that the cap hits just magically have no long-term impacts (like STs anyone?), or that 2 number ones and a number 2 are easily shredded (one reason I don't support cutting ties with Rak - a team can't keep wasting its top picks and expect anything good to happen). this is a very complicated situation and while it sounds grand to blithely claim 5 years is enough (heck I have!) - I'm not so sure. restaffing & developing the talent base? changing the culture? changing the owner? hiring a professional FO? getting all that done (after a wasted first year) and then all the other problems? in my mind, Shanahan has improved things. not enough…but he's definitely started things in the right direction. the question ought to be whether the next steps in planning are the right ones. I haven't heard much in that respect. it's all been about some 23 year old QB's relationship to the coach and owner - a total distractor IMO.

getting rid of Shanahan cuz the results have been pathetic aint enough. what is the vision? who is out there that can carry the vision forward? what are the impacts of such a move in the short-run? how successful have we been in the past with these summary executions? so what if Shanahan is covering his arse over next year - you would too if 7 million were at stake.

what is the game plan? change everything yet again? well, that certainly has enjoyed an outstanding track record in Redskin land since 1992.

you and I are largely in agreement on this.

there are people talking about it, they just quickly get drowned out by all the other talk.

i think people are significantly discounting, or maybe they just don't remember, how truly awful of an organization this was in Zorn's last year. there are now a lot of people saying we're worse than we were when Shanahan got here. it's just mindboggling how short term people's memory is, as well as how short sighted they are. this organization has lacked any true vision over the last 20 years. there's finally some here and pretty much everyone wants the people responsible for it thrown to the curb. so we can do what, start over? again? ok.

the lack of patience among the fanbase is only matched by the owner's.

it's going to be very, very interesting to see what kind of decisions are made starting next Monday. very telling as well.

I was shocked to see Shanahan go dumpster diving for his offensive line.

Montgomery was a seventh round pick who was cut by the Eagles. Lichtensteiger was a Denver pick that had been later cut, picked up and waived by the Cleveland Browns. Tyler Polumbus was in and out of 3 or 4 organizations. Chester was a draft pick of the Ravens who decided not to resign him because he wasn't strong enough at the point of attack.

Those are the players alongside Trent Williams that are protecting a quarterback you just gave up a half decade worth of high draft choices for.

When you go over their grades this offensive line isn't as bad as we say it is. Like everything else in football there's a lot that goes into determining whether someone is doing their job, and then how well they're doing it.

I've heard a few people mention that simply bringing in a strong center could radically change how effective this offensive line is.

plumbus, our favorite punching bag in these parts, routinely grades out well according to people that are actually capable/responsible for grading people out (ie: they know the system in place here, they know the responsibilities of all the players on the field, etc)

 

[Bulldog]

Well, if Polumbus and others like Chester grade out so well how come good organizations and GMs such as Ozzie Newsome decided to pass on resigning them?

Seems to me we didn't so much go out and select these players because we thought they were guys with upside as much as a warm body to fill the spot.

When Polumbus was a free agent he had only one other team interested in him, Jacksonville.

That doesn't pass as a seal of approval to me.

 

[fansince62]

Well, if Polumbus and others like Chester grade out so well how come good organizations and GMs such as Ozzie Newsome decided to pass on resigning them?

Seems to me we didn't so much go out and select these players because we thought they were guys with upside as much as a warm body to fill the spot.

When Polumbus was a free agent he had only one other team interested in him, Jacksonville.

That doesn't pass as a seal of approval to me.

I agree o-line should have been a priority earlier. but lets not forget how this all unfolded. one year the priority was receivers, last year it was dbs/safeties. the cap has been mismanaged for years as has the draft. add in the RG trade and the resources to really attack the problem haven't been there the last several years. it's not like - to take your example, Andy Reid arrived and a lot of talent (especially on defense after many years of high drafts picks because of poor team performance) was already in place. lest we forget, we had one of the oldest rosters in the league, we had a problematic cap situation with the Haynesworth contract, we had several bad Vinny drafts, we had an unproductive return game as well, we had one QB experiment after the next, we had o-lines that honored a tradition of allowing QBs to be mauled, an offense that couldn't score points if its life depended on it coupled to ok defense that could hold teams to 19-24 a game, etc., etc. This is one instance in which, if you will excuse the humor, it was indeed "Bush's fault"!!!

Again, I'm with you on the o-line. I think that has been the biggest mistake if you bet the farm on a franchise QB. but I don't log RGIII, Cousins, Young, Williams, Morris, Reed, Garcon, Kerrigan, and a few others as "mistakes." we haven't had nearly enough hits. but it has gotten better in a situation that has never been steady state in terms of all options being available and being able to methodically build a team. messed up as it is….my belief is that this team can be very competitive w/i two years once resources are fully available ASSUMING THE RIGHT TALENT IS IDENTIFIED AND PURSUED. that is the gotcha and there the record is spotty,

 

[Elephant]

For ****'s sake! This organization is not better off now than it was at the end of Zorn's tenure! IT IS NOT! We are going to end this season...season #4 under VP/Coach Shanahan and we've seen a tie for the biggest melt down I have ever witnessed with this team...cue Bingo Caller. At least with the bingo caller players were still playing. This team gave up weeks ago because of poor leadership! We will have the worst record this team has had in 20 seasons unless we somehow pull the season finale out of our asses in NY next week. Where is the organizational structure that is so much better? Shanahan as the VP in charge of Football Operations has not proven he is better than Vinny Cerrato in that position. We are still a shipwreck! "Oh cap restraints!" To that I say...JOSH MORGAN AND FRED DAVIS! Larry Johnson and Willie Parker! DONOVAN MCCRAPP AND JAMAAL BROWN!!!! And Shanahan the coach looks just as lost out there as Zorn did! 5 weeks ago when I had this argument with tshile, I thought maybe...just maybe...I could have exaggerated how poor we were overall. Now I am convinced! The only position we are better off at is RB and QB, a base for a rebuild. But the most of the defense, except Kerrigan and a few solid players who are aging, the entire OL except Trent, are piss poor! Terrible! "Oh the OL grades out better than they seem!" What a joke! We are not a player or 2 away from competing under Shanahan. We are a rebuild away from competing again if we stay the course or not! "But we have a franchise QB!" Robert Griffin III? Yeah, he "might" be that leader...then again, he might not.

So what are we left with?

Offense:
OL - entire right side and probably Lichtensteiger. Monty can be serviceable for one more year if he has a RG worth a ****!
WR - We need at least a #2 and hope that a solid #2 can help Hank and/or Aldrick come along.
TE - We need another TE. Reed gonna go on the IR halfway through the season again? We gonna depend on him for a full season with Paulsen, a solid blocking TE and Niles Paul a solid ST player as the backups?
Defense:
DL - NT and at least 1 possibly 2 additions. Bowen and Cofield are spent probably one good season a piece from them in a rotation.
Secondary - You guys trust Phillip Thomas to be the savior at Safety? Baccarri Rambo? We better re-sign Merriwether. We need a #1 CB and a Nickel. Hall will probably stick around...maybe, just maybe Amerson will be a solid #2 but he is no #1 CB in this league.
LB - We are set at OLB if Jenkins can step up, if! Rak is almost assuredly gone, we should not pay him what he'll want anyway. He is a hand in the dirt 4-3 DE not an OLB in the 3-4!! Fletcher is gone, the kid from Texas gonna step up? Not likely coming off serious knee injury. We had the same hope for Jenkins at DE. We need a starting ILB and depth.

And don't forget we need a punter. Plus we need major depth across the board.

Where do you plan to get all these players? Free agency? Have you guys taken the time to look out there at the market this off-season? It's not the cream of the crop! We'd be lucky to find 2 starters who would be here longer than 3 years of good, solid play. We are not filling all the holes we have in the FA market everyone is so bent on spending that huge cap number we have.

Oh and how about the coaching staff if Shananan stays? You think Haslett sticks around? That means we need to lure Wade Phillips up to DC even though he's a Texas man who may just be ready for retirement. But whoever it is, it's a new defense. Is Kyle leaving? Do we bring in Kubiak if Kyle does leave so the scheme is relatively the same? What about Special Teams? We all know that train wreck has to be changed!

Short term memory my ass! This team sucks from top to bottom! A rebuild is necessary with or without Shanahan! Patience? Bull****! 4 years is plenty of time to build a competitive team! We see it all over the NFL. This team is just as bad as it was the day Zorn left.

 

[Shi no Tenshi]

Why do you say Amerson will never be anything off of his first year with bad safeties behind him? Here are the first year stats of 2 players. One of them is David Amerson through 15 games. The other is Aqib Talib, who we all recognize as a legitimate number 1 CB at this point. Not saying stats are everything, but can you really say Amerson is a lost cause already by what he's done?


Player: 1 | 2
Games Played: 15 | 15
Comb tackles: 23 | 46
Total tackles: 17 | 38
Assist tackles: 6 | 8
Forced Fumbles: 0 | 1
Interceptions: 4 | 2
Int Yards: 32 | 45
TDs: 0 | 1
Passes Def: 9 | 8

Rookie CBs get toasted every now and again. I would like to see how he learns after a year or so before passing judgment that he will never be good for us.