Shanahan and Player Acquisition

[Henry]

El, I think we've seen improvement in our defense compared to last year. Surprise surprise, that's the side of the ball where we focused on in the draft.

But in general, why would we see progress? We're playing a bunch of rookies and most of the veterans are brand new. On top of that we have no QB.

I expected to scrape the bottom this year. As I said, the fact that the bright spots on this team are (with the exception of London Fletcher) rookies and second year guys that we drafted bodes well for the future. I think Helu is playing as well as we hoped and will be a decent third down back. Hankerson is starting to come around and is looking more and more like a starting caliber WR. Kerrigan ... he's awesome. Hurt is actually playing and not totally sucking. He'll some day will provide good cheap consistent depth. Perry Riley's on the field, and he's making plays all over the place.

Outside Kerrigan that's a 3rd rounder, two 4ths and 7th actually contributing to this team. Not just contributing, but in many cases standing out. That's practically unprecedented for us. We keep drafting that well and the wins will come. The guys that everyone's complaining about ... the offensive linemen, Grossman, lame free agents we brought in instead of other lame free agents ... eh. Who cares? Those guys will be gone in a year or two anyway. Like I said, they're just filler.

Lord knows I've done my share of complaining over the past few years. And if we ignore our obvious gaping holes on offense again in this draft I'll be the first one to grab a torch and a pitchfork. But right now this team looks exactly like it ... well, like it should. Hopefully the next few years will too.

 

[Nobody]

El, I'm with Henry on this one. I also have to wonder how you can say that all three backs are only back up quality. How do you evaluate a back with no line so to speak of ? Adrian Peterson couldn't run behind this line, so I don't think you're being fair in this assessment.

I see why people often make this assumption, but it's not always true. Great backs find holes. Look at Barry Sanders. I personally believe he is the greatest running back to ever play football. Amazingly enough, Detroit had the worst line in the league nearly every single year he played. Ricky Williams in his prime ran behind the worst lines too.

Just look at this year's stats, a great offensive line doesn't always give you a great rushing attack, and vice versa. The Titans have the number 4 ranked offensive line according to NFL.com, but they are dead last in the league in rushing. The Giants have the number 8 ranked line, and are 29th in the league in rushing. The Bucs are 6th in o-line, 25th in rushing, etc.

Then you look at the terrible o-lines. Jacksonville, Denver and St. Louis all have bottom of the barrel lines, and top 5 to top 10 backs and rushing attacks.

The great back, great offensive line don't always go hand in hand. You have your exceptions like in Philadelphia and Buffalo, but having that is not common. It's more common to go one way or the other.

On a side note for all the people that talk **** about Danny Smith all the time, I am sure you heard the mention during the game Sunday that they have the top special teams unit in the league. It made me chuckle, because a lot of you jumped my ass for making that claim earlier in the season.

 

[Miles Monroe]

I see why people often make this assumption, but it's not always true. Great backs find holes. Look at Barry Sanders. I personally believe he is the greatest running back to ever play football. Amazingly enough, Detroit had the worst line in the league nearly every single year he played. Ricky Williams in his prime ran behind the worst lines too.

Just look at this year's stats, a great offensive line doesn't always give you a great rushing attack, and vice versa. The Titans have the number 4 ranked offensive line according to NFL.com, but they are dead last in the league in rushing. The Giants have the number 8 ranked line, and are 29th in the league in rushing. The Bucs are 6th in o-line, 25th in rushing, etc.

Then you look at the terrible o-lines. Jacksonville, Denver and St. Louis all have bottom of the barrel lines, and top 5 to top 10 backs and rushing attacks.

The great back, great offensive line don't always go hand in hand. You have your exceptions like in Philadelphia and Buffalo, but having that is not common. It's more common to go one way or the other.

On a side note for all the people that talk **** about Danny Smith all the time, I am sure you heard the mention during the game Sunday that they have the top special teams unit in the league. It made me chuckle, because a lot of you jumped my ass for making that claim earlier in the season.

I don't care about other teams stats, what matters is our line and the system we run with. To run the zone blocking game Shanny runs, the line has to perform perfectly, period the end. We're not a between the tackles team, and a young back may miss a cut back lane, but it's part of the process of development. When Portis hit the league, Shanny had a well established line, that's why it seemed he could just plug in a back. We're far from having that here right now.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

Like I said in my thread, Shanny always had alex gibbs running the show for his Olines, thus far we have missed drafting and missed in free agency on Oline, I wonder how much of that is on Shanny trying to take over something that Gibbs always did so well.

 

[Elephant]

Why do I expect progress? Well, we beat the Giants and looked good doing it. Were the Giants on the same level they are now? No, and I think it was just one of those division games where it was our time. But since the first game of the season our offense has gotten significantly worse. I know there are some injuries, but our offense scored 21 points the first game of the year, they haven't come remotely close to that since. That is regression. Last year was the year we should have been seeing young players get in there and iron out the kinks. Now we are looking at going into the 3rd year with young players on offense who will need to iron out kinks.

And you guys keep saying our defense has progressed, but from where this defense was when Shanahan took over, our defense has finally caught up. It looks about like it did when Rak was a rookie. Solid, but not great with a young DE who was lighting things up and a defense that was holding teams as long as it could until they just withered away toward the end of the game. You call that progress? I say that it's back to where it was. Is it progress from where it was last year? Sure. Is it progress from where it was when Shanahan got here? No! It's at the same level. And I am not sure it will get better next year. Our secondary isn't really that good and our ILB's are suspect. Riley? Well, he had a good game yesterday but made mistakes. We all love London, but he's on his last legs.

 

[Henry]

Why do I expect progress? Well, we beat the Giants and looked good doing it. Were the Giants on the same level they are now? No, and I think it was just one of those division games where it was our time. But since the first game of the season our offense has gotten significantly worse. I know there are some injuries, but our offense scored 21 points the first game of the year, they haven't come remotely close to that since. That is regression.

El, the Giant's game was just one game. One game out of sixteen, or even nine, means nothing. Not only that it was the first game of the season. Week One games are always wacky. I wouldn't read too much into the season based one how we played the first week. I think now we are seeing who we are for real.

Last year was the year we should have been seeing young players get in there and iron out the kinks. Now we are looking at going into the 3rd year with young players on offense who will need to iron out kinks.

You're right. We should have been rebuilding last year but we didn't. We traded young for old and overestimated our talent level. That year is a waste, but it's gone. It's over. This year is Year One. It's 1994.

Here's what I said in the prediction thread when I was asked to explain why I said 4-12:

I don't see this offense scoring a heck of a lot of points. Just because Grossman had one high-scoring game out of his three starts (his first game as a starter in which we spent most of the game down by a couple TDs) does not mean he's going to put up 30 points every third game. This team has no QB, not much at RB, a mediocre at best OL and possibly an ok WR corps. If rookies pan out that might change, but for now I don't see our offense being any better than it was last year. Maybe a little more consistent. Maybe a little better towards the end of the season when the new guys start to mesh.

I don't think this is going to be a fun season to watch. This is one of those years we look for signs of potential, not wins.

Now that we're here, not looking for wins but signs of potential, eh ... I'm not surprised. And I do see those signs in the young guys, which is where we want to be seeing them.

And you guys keep saying our defense has progressed, but from where this defense was when Shanahan took over, our defense has finally caught up. It looks about like it did when Rak was a rookie. Solid, but not great with a young DE who was lighting things up and a defense that was holding teams as long as it could until they just withered away toward the end of the game. You call that progress? I say that it's back to where it was. Is it progress from where it was last year? Sure. Is it progress from where it was when Shanahan got here? No! It's at the same level. And I am not sure it will get better next year. Our secondary isn't really that good and our ILB's are suspect. Riley? Well, he had a good game yesterday but made mistakes. We all love London, but he's on his last legs.

While our defense in 09 was statistically on par with this unit in terms of yards given up, it was dead last in the league in turnovers, as opposed to this unit which in the middle at 17th. In 2009 we were 18th in points per game. This year we are 9th. I think that counts for something, especially considering our offense is actually worse now than it was then. On Sunday our defense not only held the Dolphins to 20 points, but it gave the offense the ball deep in Miami territory twice. That's something you never saw during the Zorn era. In '09 our top pass rushers were Orakpo and 30 year-old Andre Carter. Now it's Orakpo and 23 year-old Ryan Kerrigan. Our top lineman in sacks in 09 was the disgruntled Albert Hayensworth. This year it's Adam Carriker (who has more sacks in 9 games than Al had all that season.) That's not an insignificant difference.

I agree that the secondary needs some work and we could use an MLB, but the defense, as imperfect as it is, is being built the right way, through youth, patience and planning. I enjoy watching our defense play far more now than I did in 09.

If our offense follows suit next year I'll be quite pleased.

 

[Elephant]

If our offense follows suit next year I'll be quite pleased.

And that's my point. I don't think he has shown in 2 years that he can get us the talent we need based on his player acquisition in that time frame. So why should I trust him in year 3 to finally bring in the right pieces to make the offense work?

I will cede the defense just for argument's sake but on offense, an area he is supposed to be a genius, he has made a mockery of this team. And yes, nearly 2 full seasons in with Mike Shanahan I expected a little more. I just don't see us getting much better in the next 2 years so this current malaise just doesn't seem worth it. Maybe I am just using this terrible play to justify why I didn't want Shanahan in the first place. But Henry, worse teams have had more progress with this much time, and I am not talking about win loss ratio.

 

[redskins26]

And that's my point. I don't think he has shown in 2 years that he can get us the talent we need based on his player acquisition in that time frame. So why should I trust him in year 3 to finally bring in the right pieces to make the offense work?

I will cede the defense just for argument's sake but on offense, an area he is supposed to be a genius, he has made a mockery of this team. And yes, nearly 2 full seasons in with Mike Shanahan I expected a little more. I just don't see us getting much better in the next 2 years so this current malaise just doesn't seem worth it. Maybe I am just using this terrible play to justify why I didn't want Shanahan in the first place. But Henry, worse teams have had more progress with this much time, and I am not talking about win loss ratio.

I think the plan was good but as we all know the best plans dont always pan out the idea was to fix the defense and have Mcnabb carry the offense for a season or 2 well we all know why Andy was quick to get rid of Mcnabb now.

 

[Elephant]

I think the plan was good but as we all know the best plans dont always pan out the idea was to fix the defense and have Mcnabb carry the offense for a season or 2 well we all know why Andy was quick to get rid of Mcnabb now.

Which supports my theory. He brought in McNabb to do more than McNabb was capable of doing.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

I think Elephant is right it took 2 years for us to get back to where we were, but in between we got far worse, and that makes this middle of the road look better than it is. I look at the texans who in their first year in a 3-4 with some players who didnt fit as well and they have a championship calibre defence. the most Galling thing is the complete disarray of the offence, thats why we hired Shanny, and thats where he has dropped the ball. the "plan" wasnt much of a plan and some of his biggest moves were the biggest busts and some of the smaller ones are the ones that people point too and say " see look how good we are now at finding players." blah

 

[Henry]

And that's my point. I don't think he has shown in 2 years that he can get us the talent we need based on his player acquisition in that time frame. So why should I trust him in year 3 to finally bring in the right pieces to make the offense work?

I will cede the defense just for argument's sake but on offense, an area he is supposed to be a genius, he has made a mockery of this team. And yes, nearly 2 full seasons in with Mike Shanahan I expected a little more. I just don't see us getting much better in the next 2 years so this current malaise just doesn't seem worth it. Maybe I am just using this terrible play to justify why I didn't want Shanahan in the first place. But Henry, worse teams have had more progress with this much time, and I am not talking about win loss ratio.

Like I said, year one was a waste. Other than cutting dead weight we tried to skate by with McNabb and some castoffs on offense last year. that didn't work so we're starting over. If you want to be mad at Shanahan for that botch, that's cool. I'm mad about that too. I've been mad about it for over a year. It means year one is this year, and we're going to suck as a team in it's first year of a rebuild. And you're right, we shouldn't be here. But we are.

Does that mean we will consistently suck moving forward? I don't know. But I don't think so if Shanahan is truly committed to the draft like he was this past offseason. If we draft another 9-10 players and they all make the team, the improvement will start to show.

But it's not going to be this year. It never was.

I think Elephant is right it took 2 years for us to get back to where we were, but in between we got far worse, and that makes this middle of the road look better than it is. I look at the texans who in their first year in a 3-4 with some players who didnt fit as well and they have a championship calibre defence. the most Galling thing is the complete disarray of the offence, thats why we hired Shanny, and thats where he has dropped the ball. the "plan" wasnt much of a plan and some of his biggest moves were the biggest busts and some of the smaller ones are the ones that people point too and say " see look how good we are now at finding players." blah

Ryman, I think we all know your feelings about the defense. I disagree with you. I think when you draft twelve players, including four seventh rounders, and they all make the team, that's not a small thing. Rookies that pan out aren't small victories, especially for this team. They are essential elements to building a team, and something that we have ignored for a decade to our extreme detriment.

But you put that many rookies on a team that was already bereft of talent and the team is gonna suck. It's pretty simple math. That doesn't mean it was the wrong thing to do, or that there is no plan.

Shanahan's biggest move to date was McNabb and that was a bust. Nobody is denying that. It's huge. It killed our offense last season and this season. It still pisses me off when I think about it too long.

But if that's all that is ever going to define the Shanahan Era then fire the guy now. Today. Otherwise we need to get over it and move on. Based on this past offseason I think the team is doing that. There's still a ways to go and we're as likely to crash and burn as we are to succeed, but I think at least we have a chance now.

It just sucks watching them lose like the rebuilding team that they are right now.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

Like I said, year one was a waste. Other than cutting dead weight we tried to skate by with McNabb and some castoffs on offense last year. that didn't work so we're starting over. If you want to be mad at Shanahan for that botch, that's cool. I'm mad about that too. I've been mad about it for over a year. It means year one is this year, and we're going to suck as a team in it's first year of a rebuild. And you're right, we shouldn't be here. But we are.

Does that mean we will consistently suck moving forward? I don't know. But I don't think so if Shanahan is truly committed to the draft like he was this past offseason. If we draft another 9-10 players and they all make the team, the improvement will start to show.

But it's not going to be this year. It never was.



Ryman, I think we all know your feelings about the defense. I disagree with you. I think when you draft twelve players, including four seventh rounders, and they all make the team, that's not a small thing. Rookies that pan out aren't small victories, especially for this team. They are essential elements to building a team, and something that we have ignored for a decade to our extreme detriment.

But you put that many rookies on a team that was already bereft of talent and the team is gonna suck. It's pretty simple math. That doesn't mean it was the wrong thing to do, or that there is no plan.

Shanahan's biggest move to date was McNabb and that was a bust. Nobody is denying that. It's huge. It killed our offense last season and this season. It still pisses me off when I think about it too long.

But if that's all that is ever going to define the Shanahan Era then fire the guy now. Today. Otherwise we need to get over it and move on. Based on this past offseason I think the team is doing that. There's still a ways to go and we're as likely to crash and burn as we are to succeed, but I think at least we have a chance now.

It just sucks watching them lose like the rebuilding team that they are right now.

Why exactly did so many guys make the team this offseason? was it perhaps because we went to a scheme that we didnt have the players to execute and therefore NEEDED to spend the resources to even get back to where we were before the switch let alone improve?

Lets look at the reasons so many guys made the team, we had NO depth, we had NO youth after Shannys year one debacle, where you are seeing reasons to be happy I just get more angry because im looking big picture and I see the waste of a year combined with how bad the players we have are now but who are still upgrades lol.

would Neild even play on any other team? would any of our Olinemen start on another team aside from TW?

I would take a rookie over an ancient vet any day simply on upside, frankly our best player right now on defence? Kerrigan, is a rookie. add him to the defence we had 2 years ago and you would see the same level of improvement as he is a difference maker the way Rak should be. we went through an excrutiating year last year with something like 75 % turnover, we will need something on par with that again in order to just be decent. that doesnt bode well.

I apologise, but I cant be more clear as to why this changeover was a failure, we did an entire revamp and ended up with .... a decent defence, nothing special. if this was a success after adding so many new players, we should be at the very least a top 10 unit. if we arent next year, then its an abject failure no matter what any pollyannas say. and our offence had better vastly improve. no more excuses, nowhere to go but up.

 

[Henry]

Yes Ryman I know. You don't think we needed to clean house and start over. And if you think that cleaning house and starting over is dumb, what this front office is doing is awful and everything you said makes perfect sense.

However, after a decade of running on the Treadmill of Suck, I'm ok with blowing up the team, on both sides of the ball, and starting over. In fact, I demanded it.

So I don't have a problem with a new coach bringing in his guys and going with a new scheme. Call me a pollyannna all you want, but that's not a crazy unusual occurrence. If our defense had been an elite unit when this happened that would be another story, but it wasn't. It was a old, overpriced, middling defense on a team of malcontents led by a terrible coach.And even if I conceded that this year we're merely 'as good' as we were two years ago I'm ok with taking a year to clean it out and have it re-created in our new coach's image, so long as it continues to improve as it did this year. I don't think we did an entire revamp. I think we're doing one. It's not over yet.

 

[Fear The Spear]

Yes Ryman I know. You don't think we needed to clean house and start over. And if you think that cleaning house and starting over is dumb.

After a decade of running on the Treadmill of Suck, I'm ok with blowing up the team, on both sides of the ball, and starting over. In fact, I demanded it.

So I don't have a problem with a new coach bringing in his guys and going with a new scheme. Call me a pollyannna all you want, but that's not a crazy unusual occurrence. If our defense had been an elite unit when this happened that would be another story, but it wasn't. It was a old, overpriced, middling defense on a team of malcontents led by a terrible coach. I don't think we did an entire revamp. I think we're doing one. And even if I conceded that this year we're merely 'as good' as we were two years ago I'm ok with taking a year to clean it out and have it re-created in our new coaches image, so long as it continues to improve as it did this year.

Are you the same "Henry" as the "Henry" on ES ?
It's hard to tell, because the "BGO Henry" has a LOT more "edge" to him, than the "ES Henry"

 

[Henry]

Are you the same "Henry" as the "Henry" on ES ?
It's hard to tell, because the "BGO Henry" has a LOT more "edge" to him, than the "ES Henry"

Is that right?

It's probably because I know these guys can take it.

 

[fansince62]

Edgy Henry...eh?

all things said....the defense is better than it was during the Zorn years. an ILB and an NT and it will become quite good...IMO.

the offense? it hasn't been good since that one playoff year under Norv.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

Yes Ryman I know. You don't think we needed to clean house and start over. And if you think that cleaning house and starting over is dumb, what this front office is doing is awful and everything you said makes perfect sense.

However, after a decade of running on the Treadmill of Suck, I'm ok with blowing up the team, on both sides of the ball, and starting over. In fact, I demanded it.

So I don't have a problem with a new coach bringing in his guys and going with a new scheme. Call me a pollyannna all you want, but that's not a crazy unusual occurrence. If our defense had been an elite unit when this happened that would be another story, but it wasn't. It was a old, overpriced, middling defense on a team of malcontents led by a terrible coach.And even if I conceded that this year we're merely 'as good' as we were two years ago I'm ok with taking a year to clean it out and have it re-created in our new coach's image, so long as it continues to improve as it did this year. I don't think we did an entire revamp. I think we're doing one. It's not over yet.

I actually agree with most of what you said, I just dont think that adding and creating issues such as the switch did anthing more than delay our improvement when we needed every resource we had. thats where I am angry, we dont need to make this harder and thats what we did. we need to blow up this team but there was a way to do that without taking 2 years simply to get to where we were on defence while the offence got even worse.

 

[Henry]

I actually agree with most of what you said, I just dont think that adding and creating issues such as the switch did anthing more than delay our improvement when we needed every resource we had. thats where I am angry, we dont need to make this harder and thats what we did. we need to blow up this team but there was a way to do that without taking 2 years simply to get to where we were on defence while the offence got even worse.

Fair enough. I'm not claiming everything is perfect. God no.

I'm just saying I don't think our performance is necessarily indicative that we are doomed to terribleness with this current front office.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

yeah Boone said something to the effect that winning wasnt the only measurement, my problem is that with the massive turnover and additions, we are now pretty much where we were 2 seasons ago despite the huge committment of resources, you look at the texans who showed how to do it right or GB who had massive improvement in their first year in a 3-4 they drafted 2 defencive guys early and made a superbowl defence, neitiher of those two teams was superlatively talented on defence yet made huge imporvements without having to go through a year of what we did, and they damn sure didnt do everything to have a slight improvement 2 years later lol.

I am willing to give him this season, and next to improve the offence, I just hate that he added another year when I dont think it was necessary.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

Andre carter is looking pretty solid in new england, I wouldnt be overly surprised if he maintains that level of play over the next couple seasons, the guy was maybe my favourite redskin before Kerrigan. Good to see him playing well.