Shanahan and Player Acquisition

[Elephant]

Andre carter is looking pretty solid in new england, I wouldnt be overly surprised if he maintains that level of play over the next couple seasons, the guy was maybe my favourite redskin before Kerrigan. Good to see him playing well.

Are you concerned with Orakpo at this point? I mean, it appears he has regressed, or at least plateaued. He doesn't seem to be as dominant as he once was. Maybe it's the double teams he continues to get, but he still only seems to bull rush and is continually held. It looks like more of the same with him.

And the one thing that concerns me most is his lack of ability to drop back in protection. He cannot cover at all. Kerrigan seems to have picked it up quickly, but Rak seems to be struggling in the 3-4. Maybe I am wrong, but I have only seen flashes from Orakpo this season not the dominance we've seen before.

The thought of how successful Orakpo and Carter were in the 4-3 their first season together is what made me think of this.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

Are you concerned with Orakpo at this point? I mean, it appears he has regressed, or at least plateaued. He doesn't seem to be as dominant as he once was. Maybe it's the double teams he continues to get, but he still only seems to bull rush and is continually held. It looks like more of the same with him.

And the one thing that concerns me most is his lack of ability to drop back in protection. He cannot cover at all. Kerrigan seems to have picked it up quickly, but Rak seems to be struggling in the 3-4. Maybe I am wrong, but I have only seen flashes from Orakpo this season not the dominance we've seen before.

The thought of how successful Orakpo and Carter were in the 4-3 their first season together is what made me think of this.

Ive avoided talking about Rak because I like him and people think my dislike of the scheme now is the only reason I criticise him.

Rak simply isnt suited to be a 3-4 olb, he has performed pretty well but he will never be an elite 3-4 player.

when you watch Rak on film two things stand out, he is an exceptionally powerful man for his size and he has a tendency to get upright when rushing, thats not so bad when you start in a 3 point stance but if you start off standing its troublesome.

Rak has never had a lot of Tools in the tool box so to speak, his best moves are all power based despite him being quick and athletic. I point at Kerrigan as a guy who Rak is not, he uses his hands very well but uses his quick feet even better. You hardly ever see Rak use stutter steps or lunge fakes, you never see him throw a second or third move the way elite pass rushers do.

how did Rak do as well as he has? he has a great motor and he is extremely strong as well as above average in speed, but hustle only gets you so far, you need to polish your game and he hasnt.

frankly He is a 4-3 DE, a bit undersized and very versatile to where he can be a solid to decent olb but IMHO he would be an elite DE, Kerrigan has more upside as a LB but is another guy who if schemed around would be a pro bowl DE.

 

[redskins26]

in 2009 our defense was ranked 9th over all but was 18th in points
2010 it was 31 but 22 in points
so far this year the defense is 11th but 7th in points


Just pointing things out

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

so what you are saying is that we went through one season of exceptional crapulence spent a pile of picks and resources and have pretty much gotten back to where we were?

 

[Bulldog]

How do you have a productive offense depending on other teams' rejects at qb and on the OL?
Posted via BGO Mobile Device

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

except we cut dead weight, have more youth and are now much better off than in 09

are we though? how exactly? help me here Mike, I don't see how we are MUCH better off.

Lets actually compare the two situations piece by piece....
2009 we had a solid Dline with Carter a probowler who had 11 sacks, a rotation of Daniels and Jarmon (a young guy who flashed potential and ended up with a knee injury before we could really see what he could do.) We had 2 solid to above average DT's in Griff and AH both of whom played pretty well for us and a solid rotation guy in gholston. at LB a decent OLB who flashed probowl ability when used at DE and was solid at OLB. an aging MLB who still played very well. and an underrated WLB who made a lot more plays coming off a knee injury than he should have.

the secondary had stone hands and mouthpiece and we had a free safety who couldnt cover and no strong safety to speak of.




so lets really look at what weve done.... starting with the front 7 we drafted Kerrigan to play olb, so we now have one young guy who will end up being a probowler (in 2009 it was Rak), we have another potentially good player on the dline who is out with a knee injury in Jenkins (in 2009 that would have been Jarmon),Carriker, a Veteran who has played pretty well at DE who is about to become a free agent. 2009 that would have been daniels) Bowen at DE is not as much of a playmaker as Carter was in 2009. Cofield is pretty much up and down, much like another DT we had, only without the absolute dominant play that we got in flashes but also without the brutal play we also got in flashes lol. we have neild for depth who is pretty much another gholston. we still have an aging MLB but he is a step slower, we have Rak who has regressed at olb and who still looks raw especially incoverage.

we did add atogwe but he has been injured a lot and landry has yet to look aas amazing as he did when he made every tackle last year.

so after all the work and resources and one year that we would all love to forget we have...

end-edge 2009 Carter with daniels and jarmon rotating with Rak by a wide margin
Tackle-edge 2009 we were much more solid against the run this is closer simply because bowen and cofield have been solid.
LB-edge 2011 simply because of Kerrigan , kerrigan 2011>Rak in 2009 London in 2009>london 2011 Rocky in 2009=Rak in 2011 all together edge 2011
CB edge 2009 Clos> wilson Hall 2009>Hall2011 backups 2009>2011
FS 2011 the backups are better than LL was in 2009
SS 2011 Landry even coming off injury was better than what we used in 2009

In 2009 we didnt have much Youth we had one young up and comer at LB/ de in Rak one young guy injured but who flashed potential in jarmon, no other young guys really stood out.

in 2011 we have one young up and comer at OLB in Kerrigan potentially one in riley, we have one young injured guy who flashed potential in jenkins.

we have almost completely turned the roster over, but we havent improved as much as people think, I think they compare us to last year and of course we have improved over that unit but we are about par with 2009 and after suffereing the way we did? I expected more far more.

 

[Henry]

average age of Defense 27.3 now...in 2009 the average age was 28.1.

already that is a year younger.

2009 sacks - 46 and 307 yards lost
2011 sacks - 27 and 194 yards lost

I think you were looking at how many sacks we gave up in 2009.

According to nfl.com we only had 40 sacks in '09. Good enough for eighth in the league. This year, with 27, we're third.

2009 INTs - 16 for 291 yards
2011 INTs - 15 for 263 yards

Again, according to nfl.com in '09 we only had 11 INTs for 185 yards.
This year we have 7 for 44 yards and a TD. We are ahead of '09, but not by as much.

2009 FF - 14 and 12 recovered
2011 FF - 7 and 6 recovered

we are a little behind pace there

In '09 we forced 17 and recovered 6.
This year we have forced 12 and recovered 6.

Again, an improvement.

Overall I think Ryman's assessment of our '09 defense is a little too rosy. In particular how much value he placed on Hayensworth. Fact is, no matter what we could have done, those '09 players would all be two years older now. Carter, as wonderful as he is, is 32 and at best would only be around for the beginning of a new era. Phillip Daniels is 38 now. He's not part of the equation either way. Griffin is 35. Carlos Rogers is now 30. Haynesworth is 30.

These guys were going to need to be replaced sooner rather than later anyway. Maybe we ripped the bandaid off harder than some here would have liked, but turnover was on the horizon. Seeing as our offense sucked either way it turned out not to matter. Now the defense is younger and on the rise (hopefully), rather than treading water into eternity.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

Oh don't get me wrong henry, we needed some changes on defence, I was one of the guys who was in the minority at the time saying very clearly that we needed to be more aggressive, however some guys around here seem to think that the slight improvements that we have seen statisticly were worth the one extremely bad year we had and ignore the fact that we delayed improving the offence for an extra year as well. my contention, (and I have yet to see it effectively argued against) was that the cost for such marginal improvement was too high and that we could have had similiar improvement merely by tweaking the scheme let alone by tweaking the scheme and adding players like kerrigan. the complete blow up on defence has yet to show any tangible benefit other than getting us some better draft position.

Mike, going from 28.1 to 27.3 is not a year younger and given that we completely changed the defence (what 3 starters remain?) and yet we are still middle of the Pack, says more about my point being closer to true than yours. You can cherry pick stats all you like but the fact remains, any improvements we made have been marginal at best. When you doa complete rebuild, you had better improve drastically. BTW before his 4.5 sack game, Carter still had 4.5 sacks and had less pass rush attempts, so thats a win on both fronts for Carter, now he has the total of our two best pass rushers combined in less rush attempts, we let him go for NOTHING. He was also a great character guy and a building block we could have kept and used FOR NOTHING.

yeah Jenkins flashed some potential before blowing out his knee, that and 50 cents doesnt get you a cup of coffee. Jarmon flashed some serious potential before getting hurt too.

 

[Goaldeje]

Ry, you gotta let it go. Some people agree with you, others don't. Move on, man. For every stat you offer, I could find one that argues the opposite of what you claim. The rest of your argument is completely subjective and open to each person's interpretation.

Carter bothers me too. I like him a lot, still follow him in NE (and I effing hate NE), and was thrilled for him with his game last week. But that's life. The only other point I will argue is that you say we should have made more of an improvement, but the fact is we went with a total rebuild and were dead last in the league in total defense last year. This year, we are middle of the pack, which to me is a pretty damned good improvement. I am more than satisfied with the improvement the D has made thus far, and am looking for the O to make similar strides next year.

Oh, and Jenkins would have dropped the average age even more, btw.

 

[Henry]

Oh don't get me wrong henry, we needed some changes on defence, I was one of the guys who was in the minority at the time saying very clearly that we needed to be more aggressive, however some guys around here seem to think that the slight improvements that we have seen statisticly were worth the one extremely bad year we had and ignore the fact that we delayed improving the offence for an extra year as well. my contention, (and I have yet to see it effectively argued against) was that the cost for such marginal improvement was too high and that we could have had similiar improvement merely by tweaking the scheme let alone by tweaking the scheme and adding players like kerrigan. the complete blow up on defence has yet to show any tangible benefit other than getting us some better draft position.

Ry, the point isn't whether or not what we did was worth the results. The point is, here we are. Our strategy in the '10 offseason was terrible. That's not up for debate. What we're talking about is what we're doing now. Was the '11 offseason merely the continuation of that terribleness or the beginning of a new plan? I think it was the latter, and given that, the way we are playing this season should have been expected. The time to howl at the moon should have been in the offseason when it was obvious we had put ourselves so far into a hole that it would take years to dig ourselves out. (And believe me I howled louder than anyone ... except maybe you. )

My point is now at least we are digging in the right direction. Even that is a refreshing change from the way we've done things over the past decade and change.

Because of that I think looking at this team now, as it is, and holding our entirely predictable losses up as proof that this team is doomed to failure forever (or into the foreseeable future) is a mistake.

Lamenting our awful moves of the past is fine. I do it all the time. But I don't think it's necessarily relevant to what we are doing now and what we are going to do in the future.

 

[Neophyte]

I apologise, but I cant be more clear as to why this changeover was a failure, we did an entire revamp and ended up with .... a decent defence, nothing special. if this was a success after adding so many new players, we should be at the very least a top 10 unit. if we arent next year, then its an abject failure no matter what any pollyannas say. and our offence had better vastly improve. no more excuses, nowhere to go but up.

But we are a Top 10 unit on defense in the only stat that counts...Points Allowed per Game. We are 9th in the league at 19.8 points per game.

Just imagine what this D might be if it ever got to play with a lead? That is something that has not happened since Oct 2nd when we played the Rams.

 

[Elephant]

But we are a Top 10 unit on defense in the only stat that counts...Points Allowed per Game. We are 9th in the league at 19.8 points per game.

Just imagine what this D might be if it ever got to play with a lead? That is something that has not happened since Oct 2nd when we played the Rams.

You mean like against Dallas earlier in the year when they had the lead mid-way through the 4th quarter and Kyle Shanahan continued to throw the ball instead of running it at the end of the 3rd quarter and well into the 4th continually putting our defense back on the field only to give up FG after FG eventually relinquishing the lead?

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

ok there is a bit of a communications disconnect here.

I use the stats from 2009 as compared to this year because thats what I am comparing, comparing this year to last year is worthless the drop off we had already proved my point, now we need to determine the worth of the switch by comparing where we were to where we are, I was already correct about the fail of the switch as we dropped significantly the year after we switched that can no longer be argued, what I am trying to do is show people that despite the massive changes, and despite the resources committed, the improvement from the 2009 season to now was not very much.

I saw that too Mike, I think nfl .com stats are different espn goes by hwta the team says nfl goes by nfls statistician.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

You mean like against Dallas earlier in the year when they had the lead mid-way through the 4th quarter and Kyle Shanahan continued to throw the ball instead of running it at the end of the 3rd quarter and well into the 4th continually putting our defense back on the field only to give up FG after FG eventually relinquishing the lead?

exactly, the 2009 team wasnt an offencive juggernaut either.

 

[Henry]

I give up. There's definitely a disconnect here and I feel like a representative from the Redundant Department of Redundancy. I'm done repeating myself. Have a nice thread.

 

[Elephant]

I give up. There's definitely a disconnect here and I feel like a representative from the Redundant Department of Redundancy. I'm done repeating myself. Have a nice thread.

Yeah, it's OK Henry. We can agree to disagree. I just don't see Shanahan as the savior many thought he was. That's all. I see another 5 years of mediocrity at best. "Here's hoping I am wrong!"

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

LOL Henry its all good at least you argue with facts, the reason im wondering if we are digging in the right direction is that we still seem to want to sign and play old guys. I think that too many people are fixated on our "improvement" from last season, when they should rightfully be asking " are we better than we were before we tore it all down" tearing it all down and getting better is good, change for the sake of change not so much. I believe the end of this season and the offseason will determine a lot, (I know being Captain obvious) but I also believe that ignoring the massive mistakes already made or whitewahsing them is foolish as well. Sadly I don't feel as bullish on this regimes future as some of you guys do.

 

[Henry]

Yeah, it's OK Henry. We can agree to disagree. I just don't see Shanahan as the savior many thought he was. That's all. I see another 5 years of mediocrity at best. "Here's hoping I am wrong!"

I guess I never did see Shanahan as the savior. (I've known too many saviors. )

I could see five (or more) more years of mediocrity. I just don't think it's a given yet. That's really the only difference.