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Screw you Mike Shannahan!

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Elephant

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Lots of good opinions - and here is mine...

In order to succeed in the NFL today, you need the right combination of players and coaches. Bill Belichik was a has-been until he was paired with Tom Brady. For whatever reason, that combo worked. Ditto for Shanahan/Elway. Same for Favre/Holmgren. McNabb/Reid too. Had none of these combos come to pass, chances are most of them would've been nothing more than serviceable, decent, and reliable journeymen.

I really believe there is more to Mike Shanahan coming to DC as head coach. Yes, it is to turn the franchise around. However, I think it is more than we know at this juncture and this is simply speculation from my own mind. So here goes...

Although they won't admit it publicly, the Redskins are in a rebuilding process and knew it the moment Coach Shanahan signed the contract. Go back to that first paragraph. Each one of those successful coaches were good coordinators, but nothing was certain when it came to the future. The only known coach was Belichik and his resume was sorely lacking. Coach Gibbs' first head coaching gig was with the Redskins. Too, he was an unknown.

The goal in DC is to get this franchise pointed in the right direction and hand it over to a good, young coordinator. Can you say nepotism? Normally, I would have a problem with such a scenario, but Kyle Shanahan should be ready to take the helm when the time comes. The team will have the many pieces in place and KS will be the young coordinator turned HC who leads them to the next level.

I may be saying things that are known to a certain extent, but KS can get the job done. It's a great short term and long term deal that could pay big dividends for the Redskins well into the future. For now, the common theme is patience and we need it more than ever. We have our Sean Payton in waiting. After the McNabb temp solution thing, KS will have his QB. Give it time - you will see. Have faith. Patiently endure. It will be worth it.

At the beginning of the season I mentioned Kyle was a likely heir apparent and I was pleased that we may have the scenario that I wanted all along, a young hungry coach with a Front Office that was stable and would give him the players that coach needed. Last year I was calling for Brian Shottenheimer or someone along those lines, Jim Hargaugh maybe. Earlier in the season when I saw that potential you spoke of in your post, I was excited.

The most frustrating part of this season, and it may be a short sighted vision, was that I saw us being a better team if we had stayed in the 4-3, perhaps even a Wild Card contender. I claim our defense would not be the worst in the league had we stayed in that scheme. It made little sense to play a scheme that would not work with the personnel we had. If you are trying to get players used to a scheme, great. But the majority of the players on this D will not even be here to have that experience in the coming years since they don't fit, nor will they.

I agree BB, we need patience for the long haul, but I am concerned for the future by the coaching staff's decisions that seem to have been foolish.

I do disagree with one claim you made. You claimed that those coaches and QB's would likely have not been what they were without each other. You are likely correct in stating Brady may never have been more, maybe not even McNabb. But John Elway was a Hall of Fame QB before Mike Shanahan ever came along. Just me being difficult. :beam:
 

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a thread is only as good as the people participating. if one only read the title they would say " geez that guys pissed" if they actually read the OP they will see several good talking points and stuff worth discussing. I actually like that, if everyone agreed , the thread would be filled with +1 and "this" but here even when people agree with some of what you write, they arent shy about disagreeing with what they dont.

I dont agree with some of the stuff that other people post, but thats why this forum is awesome, just because a mod doesnt agree doesnt mean ill get banned.
 

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Exactly Chris. I had the same exact thought.
 

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George Mason

Trust me, when this guy get's in the NFL he will be the next best thing since sliced bread. He's no VY or JR.
Vinny, is that you?


He's Jason Campbell 2.0. Putting up big numbers in a gimmicky offense. I am willing to bet any amount of money he will be a bust, and if we draft him with an early round pick I will give up on this team forever.
 

riggins44

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This past March many of us felt this would be a rough and rebuilding year. Our expectations were low. If we had drafted a QB to develop, then we would have expected rough days.

Then Shanahan and Allen traded for McNabb. Shanahan went on record saying we shouldn't lower our expectations. First game we played hard and beat the Cowboys, who most pundits said was best in NFC. So, much of the flak Shanahan is getting was brought on by himself.

I also will give Shanahan, the coaches, and Allen some time to prove they have a good plan in place. The switch to 3-4 was puzzling to me as well and not a big Haslett fan. Many point to we were a top 10 defense in previous years. This is like an old proverb..."there are 3 types of lies. Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics."

Based on statistics we were a top 10 defense last year, but finished 4-12. This year we are dead last, but 5-7 with 4 games to go. In the end the only real statistic that matters is wins versus losses.
 

riggins44

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Ryman to be perfectly honest, I would say both are at fault the past 2 years. The offense this year has been a little better, but overall the team hasn't been consistent.

We can point to the switch as a steep learning curve, but this team has regressed. At some point you have to stop blaming the system. There comes a time when the players have to be held accountable.

The 3-4 defense didn't miss tackles. Guys were out of position and being pushed around. On offense coaching didn't drop passes or fumble. The players need to accept some responsibility as well. This mess has been a total team effort.

As a friend of mine said this morning, "The Redskins could scrimmage themselves and still lose."
 
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Rymanofthenorth

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riggins, the defence was not at fault last year, it was actually a decent unit. the offence ? im not sure it actually has improved at least statisticly.

as for the switch, im not saying the 3-4 is completely at fault but its putting our guys in poor positions to play football, early on we overcame that through playing hard with fire, we got some turnovers and it hid how bad this scheme is.

bottom line the 3-4 isnt responsible for guys missing tackles but its responsible for them starting out in bad positions, being at bad angles and often for missing assignments. the scheme itself is unsound because haslett is putting a premium on being unpredictable instead of being sound.
 

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I could see the defense having growing pains early in the season, but we're at the point where the 3-4 schemes should be kicking in. What worries me is we have seemed to regressed. You would think we would show some progress.

I know some of it lack of talent and or having round pegs in square holes. Landry and even Rogers could have made a little difference. Early in the year we kept mistakes to a minimum and let the other team make the critical error. Now we are beating ourselves as much as anyone.

Guess what this team is missing is a Ray Lewis, or Peyton Manning, or Tom Brady. They probably need a leader that will get in their face, hold them accountable, and keep everyone focused.

Ryman, guess I am disappointed we're even having this discussion 12 weeks into the season. I'm not a chicken little or ready to fire everyone person, but I am disappointed in the collective group.
 

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I could see the defense having growing pains early in the season, but we're at the point where the 3-4 schemes should be kicking in. What worries me is we have seemed to regressed. You would think we would show some progress.

I know some of it lack of talent and or having round pegs in square holes. Landry and even Rogers could have made a little difference. Early in the year we kept mistakes to a minimum and let the other team make the critical error. Now we are beating ourselves as much as anyone.

Guess what this team is missing is a Ray Lewis, or Peyton Manning, or Tom Brady. They probably need a leader that will get in their face, hold them accountable, and keep everyone focused.

Ryman, guess I am disappointed we're even having this discussion 12 weeks into the season. I'm not a chicken little or ready to fire everyone person, but I am disappointed in the collective group.
dude...we have no d-line. it's horrible. ryman is exactly right..they made a shift and attempted to square the circle by signing over-the-hill types or so so players (carricker). it was a huge crapshoot that produced ZERO return.
 

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riggins, the defence was not at fault last year, it was actually a decent unit.
"Decent", yeah, I will take that. In my world "decent" is the same as "OK" and "alright". It isn't bad but it isn't lights out either. And yeah, that describes what we were defensively last year. The yardage and sack stats were good but that was about it. There were few turnovers and no one I know ever expected a stop when the team absolutely had to have one.

I'll tell you what I see right now. Two things. First, I see a defense in desperate need of its MVP back, that's what. The Skins right now are suffering worse without Landry than the Steelers did without Polamalu, and that is saying something. Landry appears to mean that much to this unit. I'm not saying the unit is great when he is in there but is a damn site better than when he is out. Second, I see a 3-4 without the single most important piece, a solid NT. Kemo might get back into form and handle it next year and he might not but he is definitely not the answer right now. Al was never the answer at NT and anyone who thought he was was smoking some good stuff. A Jay Ratliff or Kris Jenkins at NT changes the whole outlook of this crew. It instantly makes the guys we have playing DE better and more dangerous. That, in turn, spreads back to the LBs. But the guys we have manning the position right now can be handled mano e mano with just a center. That no worky in this defense.
 
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Rymanofthenorth

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I could see the defense having growing pains early in the season, but we're at the point where the 3-4 schemes should be kicking in. What worries me is we have seemed to regressed. You would think we would show some progress.

I know some of it lack of talent and or having round pegs in square holes. Landry and even Rogers could have made a little difference. Early in the year we kept mistakes to a minimum and let the other team make the critical error. Now we are beating ourselves as much as anyone.

Guess what this team is missing is a Ray Lewis, or Peyton Manning, or Tom Brady. They probably need a leader that will get in their face, hold them accountable, and keep everyone focused.

Ryman, guess I am disappointed we're even having this discussion 12 weeks into the season. I'm not a chicken little or ready to fire everyone person, but I am disappointed in the collective group.

the turnovers we got early on due to playing unsound football masked a fatal deficiency in this defence, we simply cant stop anyone. What this team is missing is not leadership, Fletch did a solid job of that, whats its missing is the correct players to run what Shannahan wants.

12 games in is not when the light should be going on, you can see 3-4 games in if a team is gonna be able to run certain schemes, all I need is 2 games, (because one may actually be a fluke) after 3 I KNOW if something is gonna work, after 4 if you dont know, you shouldnt be coaching.

we panicked and signed guys like Holliday, Kemo, and resigned Daniels and expected them to all have major roles, 2 of those guys were past their prime 4 years ago, and one is coming off a brutal injury. Carriker we got for a sing because he failed in St louis and in all honesty he is decent but more of a backup calibre IF WE HAD ANYONE ELSE lol.

Im with you though, I dont wnat to fire everyone, I want to fire haslett, I want Shannahan to admit he screwed up and go back to a 4-3 even a simple one to end the year, and I want the damn team to at least look like they care.
 

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"Decent", yeah, I will take that. In my world "decent" is the same as "OK" and "alright". It isn't bad but it isn't lights out either. And yeah, that describes what we were defensively last year. The yardage and sack stats were good but that was about it. There were few turnovers and no one I know ever expected a stop when the team absolutely had to have one.

I'll tell you what I see right now. A defense in desperate need of its MVP back, that's what. The Skins right now are suffering worse without Landry than the Steelers did with Polamalu, and that is saying something. Landry appears to mean that much to this unit.

I'm not saying it is a great unit when he is there but you can't tell me you don't see a huge difference in it with him in the line up.

we werent getting stops when Landry was in most of the time, and we were ranked terribly when he was playing, its bad news when a saftey leads the league in tackles. I will say he is far better this year though because he is being used correctly, too bad we cant say the same about AC, AH, and Rak.

this team was ranked 5th playing a weak soft scheme, just imagine if we had simply ramped up the aggression and continued with the same players. we didnt suddenly all take suck pills, this team has talent its just not being used properly. take fletch, the guy is a fast pursuit LB who excels in tracking guys down, now he is either making tackles 10 yards downfield or being forced to take on Olinemen. great.
 

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Im with you though, I dont wnat to fire everyone, I want to fire haslett, I want Shannahan to admit he screwed up and go back to a 4-3 even a simple one to end the year, and I want the damn team to at least look like they care.
This is the problem in a nutshell. We all wish the team acted like they cared half as much as we do.

Granted I am old school and prefer the 4-3, but Shanahan wants to run the 3-4. He is the boss and right or wrong sometimes you have to do what the boss wants. At some point regardless of scheme the players need to play. Until now I never realized how much we miss and need Landry. The defense could be a lot better if we tackled better and Haynesworth would play at a high level on a consistent basis. To me Haynesworth is the Randy Moss of defense.

I look at the Patriots and their record with only 2 losses. Their defense is ranked #32 in yards allowed and passing yardage. They are winning regardless of defensive ranking. Difference is their players give 110% effort.
 

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lol I completely agree. it galls me that people who get to actually do my dream job, dont seem to care as much as we do.

as for Shannhan being the boss, I agree, but sadly he doesnt seem to "get it" its not about him getting his way, although I genuinely think he would be happier losing "his way" then admitting he was wrong and winning. the team is suffereing in lots of aspects, I believe (as do other guys who coach) that the poor tackling and missed assignments are because guys are thinking and not playing instinctively anymore, guys dont simply become crap players in one season not when it suddenly EVERYONE BUT LANDRY who looks like they are rookies. thats down to the scheme and coaching which scares me.

You can win with a poor defence, but you had better have a scary offence. they allow more passing yardage because teams are always behind and trying to come back by passing the ball so its a bit misleading.
 

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Shanahan is like most Super Bowl winning coaches. The media tells them how great they are and after a while they start buying into the praise and develop large egos. You can pretty much same the same about the egos of today's players.

The trick is to get these ego's, multi-millionaires, and type A personalities to work together.

I just believe it is less about schemes versus just doing your job to the best of your ability every day.
 

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football is not like life, in life we choose where we work, we choose what we do for a living, you dont take a ditch digger and ask him to be a heart surgeon. in football players are told for the most part where they will be playing, with only a few superlative ones who can choose. supposedly coaches want to win at all costs and will put players in the best possible position to do so. im not seeing that here and it stings.

I know several high level coaches who havent become martinets, look at guys like coughlin, it took him almost getting fired but he smartened up. there are very few martinets who sustain success in the NFL, it works in college, not in the pros.

I have no doubt some people will be dancing around in their dunce hats saying " yay we suspended AH " but anyone with a brain can see this could and should have been avoided, and now yet again we have nothing to show for a hundred million dollar free agent. yeah im stoked.

I will give you this, I wish you were right.
 

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Shanahan should have made cutting Haynesworth a pre-condition of taking the job.

This was originally Snyder and Cerrato's mess - promising Haynesworth he could play in a 4-3 in the future when they didn't even know if the next coach would run the scheme.

And Shanahan, sans ego, should have started himself off without the albatross around his neck that Haynesworth represented.

But as in so many things a 57 year old coach that is used to getting his own way balked at trading or releasing a talented player because HE was the one who could turn the situation to advantage.

Well, I think Mike has learned to eat a bit of humble pie.

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck :)

Now, that Haynesworth and the un-ending arguments over the 3-4 and 4-3 are in the rear view mirror perhaps we can get a slant on McNabb.

The team traded #2 and #3 picks for McNabbb and supposedly he doesn't fit the system on offense, has horrible mechanics and isn't smart enough to run the 2 minute drill.

So, if any of those things is really the case then why is he here? :)
 

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Bulldogs twin,

I cant say I disagree with how you put your views either, Shannahan seems to be getting a pass froma lot of people right now because "someone else signed the headache" in my mind when you take over a team, you take over a team, good and bad, its your job to make it work, whether thats cutting guys or adjusting. he didnt adjust anything. he has his system and we will run it come hell or high water.


Now as for Mcnabb, I was against it from the start, I was seriously hoping we grabbed him to trade for Bradford. IMHO he has never been a franchise type qb and his numbers bore that out other than one superlative season in 2006. He is aging badly and wasnt great to start with, add to that , his skillset superficially looks like John elway (mobile, big arm) but when you look at it carefully, unlike Elway he didnt throw to his wideouts a lot and threw far more to his TE and RB than elway ever did, he also lacks elways accuracy and elways ability to throw the ball away. in Philly they used to throw the ball 65% of the time because Mcnabb needs to be in a rythym to be effective.

I get pilloried for my views on Quarterbacks and have even been called a racist once because I said it would take a miracle for me to draft a black qb. My favourite player (non redskin) was Warren Moon who in my opinion is the only superlative Black Qb who has ever played in the NFL but he is the only Black QB I have ever seen who sustained success and didnt need to have a talented team around him to win.

I am a firm believer in odds, and the odds say that a white Corner or wideout is less likely to be an all pro and a Black QB is less likely to be all pro too I am not sure why, but I dont argue with the odds.

Mcnabb was overrated because of his race imho, the media wants very badly to have a black QB become a franchise player because it would give credence to the whole "all men are created equal in all things" bs that we are fed. they did the same thing with Cunningham who again had only one superlative year (with minnesota when he had moss and carter and a great oline) Mcnair (who was solid to good but never even approached greatness) and Vick (who until recently was a gimmick player who had flashes of success and truly horrid play). Finding a great QB is tough and no matter anyone tells you, you have to follow history and be very careful as the mike bishops, heath shulers, and Ryan leafs far outnumber the Mannings and Brees's.

I think after seeing the 3-4 debacle and the fact that he only looked superficially at Mcnabb, I would question Shannahans personelle acumen, frankly he didnt really build denvers roster either.
 

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