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Screw you Mike Shannahan!

One of many experimental iterations ...

Boone

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This has been one of the toughest years to be a fan in recent memory, at least for me. Counter-intuitive maybe, but I know Shanahan is a solid coach, and Allen is a capable GM. That this doesn't translate to immediate improvement should be expected, but it's nearly impossible not to have optimistic expectations. I have been livid after at least 3 of our losses this season. And that's really not my style.

So I can understand the urge to rage and rip, even while rationally knowing it's ridiculous to expect success in year one of a huge front office and coaching transition.
 

Boone

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I like Shanahan and Haslett is a ? mark, but there is one thing i kind of question nowdays with Shanahan's style. Is it even possible in today's game to win with a run first style? When's the last time a running team has won the SB?

If you look at it from a statistical point of view. Your odd's have to be better passing the ball mostly. The rule changes where you can't breathe on a QB or WR gives you a high chance of getting a penalty against the D even if you're unsuccessful on a passing attempt.

I don't like the changes at all and personally think it's been bad for football purists, but it is what it is.
That is a great question that probably begs much closer examination...

Calling Brother Om...calling Brother Om.....
 

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Sure you can get to the SuperBowl with a running team. I think the media's coverage in favor of the passing teams such as the Colts and Saints has the general football fan's opinions skewed.

Within the last five years we have seen the Steelers twice, the Giants, and the Bears. Three of those years, the Steelers (twice) and the Giants (once) have won.

A running team can win, but IMO, they have to have a solid defense. Right now the Skins are not a run first team and they do not have a solid defense.

Also, the Colts have been struggling lately because they cannot run the ball. The Saints still pass more, but the threat of the run is there. It is very important to do both, or at least have that threat.
 

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Burgundy Burner, FTW :)

Thing is, while suppressing the urge to shout the 'F' word, we'd all like to evidence of that elusive 'P' word.

Progress.

That we aren't seeing signs of it, ANY sign of it, is disheartening. Any fan can accept rock bottom and wait for better days after a transition when they see progress. It's the lack of it that is so tough to endure.

Despite the fact that my gut told me from day one that McNabb was not part of the answer (not even a temporary part) and that Henry has been right all along - that the new leadership in Ashburn should've immediately committed to a youth movement in a major way - I will continue to preach patience.

You can't be handed onions and produce vanilla pudding. The Shanallens inherited a pretty bad team, and a culture fairly immersed in losing. Does that provide blanket amnesty for what appears to be a dearth of progress? Nope. They've made mistakes. I think McNabb was one of them, but I can still understand the move if they were convinced they'd seen enough of Jason Campbell (and who wasn't convinced?). Personally, I'd have rather we kept Todd Collins or given Colt Brennan a chance for the season, if only to avoid spending picks for McNabb even if he came relatively cheap.

I think the defensive switch was also a major miscalculation, but that the bigger miscalculation was bringing in Haslett who appears to have no answers so far. He could prove us all wrong in 3 years (if he lasts that long), but I'll be surprised if he does. I think Om nailed it early on - he's at best an average DC.

And I don't think Ryman could be more wrong laying the blame for the Haynesworth debacle on Shanahan. The Shanahans 'alienated' him? Are you kidding me? The guy is a waste of time. We should have cut our losses when we could. He's nothing but a wasted roster spot and a drag on this team.

I think the real measure of Shanahan and Allen is what we see this offseason. I think you may see a major infusion of youth. They overestimated the talent on this team - even with guys like Moss and Cooley. We need young talent across the board, and we need every draft pick we can dig up. We also need a young QB who is teachable. On defence I don't know what we do. Short of jettisoning Haslett and starting over, I am not very hopeful. And with all of the help we need on offense, I hate to use draft picks on the continued transition to the 3-4. Short of firing Haslett and going back to the 4-3, I think that's exactly what we'll do.

In general, I think regardless of a lack of evident progress, we have to remember that we are 2/3rds of a season into a new regime's tenure. To expect them to turn things around that quickly is likely unrealistic. They deserve criticism, because the Redskins appear to be getting worse, not better. But that doesn't change the fact that we are very early on with a new coaching staff, new offense and defense, and things could improve with a new infusion of younger talent. I've got 3 years worth of patience in me. After that, I'm lighting my torch and joining the mob marching on D.C.

Boone at the start of your post I agree with you as I often do, any fan who has been through the wringer with this team should be able to see what we see even if they dont come to the same conclusions as some of us do. where we differ is in details, I am NOT going to be patient while we repeat the same mistakes, if we looked like we had learned something id be more likely to be patient, like Henry, I was willing to wait 3 seasons and take my lumps BEFORE they started making stupid moves.

My problem isnt with us being not very good, my problem isnt even really with some of the things that the new regime has done in regards to building a team, my problem is with hubris, in particular that of Mike Shannahan.

We can blame Haslett for the D, after all thats why he was hired but the truth is he was told to run the 3-4 by Shannahan, now its Hasletts fault for taking a lame duck job and not telling shanny to pound sand, but its all on shanny because he is the one who forced the 3-4. the only upside was that early on haslett got guys to buy in and play hard, something we hadnt seen in Blaches soft version of the 4-3. but we play unsound and look unprepared, worst of all we look worse week by week.

we are seeing no progress, none. now that the fluke turnovers arent coming and teams are ready for us to be playing unsound football, we are seeing what this team really is. out manned, out played, outcoached.

Now as for AH, when he is used correctly he is a beast, period, he is by far our best player, we paid a hundred million to get him. we have the players we need to put around him for the most part AND IF WE SIMPLY USED THEM PROPERLY we would at least be competitive on defence. why is it our nickle and goalline packages are so effective when he is in the game?

anyone who followed the AH debacle knew 2 very important things
1- haynesworth made it clear he was coming here because he didnt want to play nosetackle.
2- our management at the time had built a 4-3 team and were committed to using AH for maximum effect.

After that gong show where we bluffed and got called, well, obviously AH wasnt gonna be a guy you could build around in a position he isnt suited for and doesnt want to play.

Shannahan then decided to run a 3-4 despite the fact that his best defencive player balked at it and his next best defencive player had failed at it once already. I have stated ad nauseum why this was such a stupid move but the fact is that its directly on Mike and noone else. has the scheme failed? yes obviously. is there a 3-4 scheme we could have run? no not with this skillset on our players.

now does Shanny admit " hey I screwed up, lets do whats best for this team."? nope he sticks with this aborted mission and uses excuses like " we are building for next year." when the only startes in the front seven who should be returning are carriker unless we find someoen better and Rak who would be better as a 4-3 end.


You are right tho Boone, I shouldnt post when im angry, and right now im angry as heck, I just watched my favourite team get handled and get out everythinged by a rival who I hate. worse yet I dont see a light at the end of the tunnel. What I wanted to write was far worse than what I wrote.

as for anyone who doesnt want to read what I write? im ok with that, I dont have a blog, I dont care of people read it who dont want to discuss it, and if somoene makes a cogent point thats contrary to what i think I often will listen.
 

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I hate to sound like Snyder, but i would be making plans right now to mortage the franchise and get Cam Newton. I don't care how ridiculous it is. I would give up just about any 3 or more player's on this team, no draft picks though, to get this guy.
 

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I hate to sound like Snyder, but i would be making plans right now to mortage the franchise and get Cam Newton. I don't care how ridiculous it is. I would give up just about any 3 or more player's on this team, no draft picks though, to get this guy.

A guy who is of uncertain character is worth mortgaging the future to acquire? I see another JaMarcus Russell here, maybe Vince Young.
 

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A guy who is of uncertain character is worth mortgaging the future to acquire? I see another JaMarcus Russell here, maybe Vince Young.
Trust me, when this guy get's in the NFL he will be the next best thing since sliced bread. He's no VY or JR.
 

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This has been one of the toughest years to be a fan in recent memory, at least for me. Counter-intuitive maybe, but I know Shanahan is a solid coach, and Allen is a capable GM. That this doesn't translate to immediate improvement should be expected, but it's nearly impossible not to have optimistic expectations. I have been livid after at least 3 of our losses this season. And that's really not my style.

So I can understand the urge to rage and rip, even while rationally knowing it's ridiculous to expect success in year one of a huge front office and coaching transition.
I think the frustration is that either: a) there was improvement early on, but a marked decline lately, or b) the improvement we saw early was smoke and mirrors, a fake, and due only to the league not being familiar with Shanahan and Haslett's new schemes, ala Zorn in '08.

Either way, it sucks. The FO is sending mixed signals, and the perception is that they don't know what they are doing, and/or don't have a plan. I'm not asking for the FO to detail out their plan to us, but it sure as hell would be nice to know that they have one. Cause right now, I'm not so sure.

I like the idea in your previous post of a major youth movement next year, but how do we acquire more draft picks? As it stands now, we are stuck with an inaccurate, aging QB who simply isn't getting the job done in any way, shape or form. This is particularly difficult for me to type, as I have been one of McNabb's biggest supporters, and I hate admitting the Eagles fleeced us, but it certainly looks that way right now.

I guess Boone, I would ask why should we patient, and what are we being asked to be patient for? If there was a genuine, honest to God youth movement, I'm good with that. I would be honestly fine going 3-13 next year if the average age of our starters was 23-24. But first, there is NO indication that is on the horizon, nor is there any plan (apparently) for how to get there.
 

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The 4-3 being good was a mirage how many times did a team march down the field and score a td on us to win a game over the last 6 years plenty.

The switch to the 3-4 this year makes perfect sense in that it allows players to get a feel for it so that when we acguire more players that fit the system it will be run better and we wont have a drop off

Fixing this team in one offseason is impossible but we made good strides and some good draft choices this offseason with a few minor FA pickups will help out tremoundously.
umm at the risk of being rude, you are wrong on a couple of your basic premises and it not opinion.
1- the 4-3 was solid, we are built to play it and we are far better when we do, the SCHEME that blache ran was not aggressive enough. Blache actually had the interior line two gapping a lot which was NOT the best way to use AH, and he didnt use our best pass rusher at the position he is natural at. how many blowouts have we had this season? how many times have we relied on plays that were either fluke or out and out effort that got a play made DESPITE the scheme?

2- no, running the 3-4 does not make perfect sense, it makes no sense and anyone who has told you that either doesnt understand defence or drank the koolaid. you say we are allowing players to "get a feel for it"? which players?
name me 4 non secondary players who will play a significant role on this team in a 3-4. defence is not like offence, the time it takes to learn defences is mostly time spent on terminology and a little on basic alignments, the rest is technique and memory. However certain players are suited towards playing certain schemes, and we have only 2 players currently in our front seven who benefit from being a 3-4 and we have several who are hurt by it. If we had a roster that was filled with 20 year olds all competing for a spot and learning the game at the NFL level you might have been able to at least be a bit correct about this, but we are OLD, we are almost all veterans who are not gonna change their skillset in their mid or late thirties. worst of all, if we run a 3-4 next year? it will be all new players and guess what? we get another year of "learning the systems" and "getting a feel for it"

teams who run 3-4 defences after making the switch are almost always succesful because of two major factors, the teams doing it usually research the heck out of it and make sure they have the basic blocks and commit huge resources to it in the initial stages AND THEY HAVE THE RESOURCES TO COMMIT. did you know we are in the top 3 worst switches to a 3-4 all time, (past 8 years)to go with atlanta a few years back and Buffalo this year?

This team made the switch based on a guys hunch, a guy who has never displayed any defencive knowledge and who made several classic rookie mistakes in judging his talent to do so.


We have too many holes, our Oline needs a major revamping, our receiving core needs revamping, our running backs need an infusion of talent, our secondary needs some depth and talent, now by going to a 3-4 we need to replace at least 5 out of seven starters and still add depth.

I am passionate about this, because I feel most of our fans have been fed a lot of crap by the media and by the staff who all perpetuate this crap about " building for next year" you build a team for the long haul, you draft, you sign players and you fit your schemes around them, you dont scheme around players you dont have. does that make more sense to you if I say it that way?
 

Rymanofthenorth

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I think the frustration is that either: a) there was improvement early on, but a marked decline lately, or b) the improvement we saw early was smoke and mirrors, a fake, and due only to the league not being familiar with Shanahan and Haslett's new schemes, ala Zorn in '08.

Either way, it sucks. The FO is sending mixed signals, and the perception is that they don't know what they are doing, and/or don't have a plan. I'm not asking for the FO to detail out their plan to us, but it sure as hell would be nice to know that they have one. Cause right now, I'm not so sure.

I like the idea in your previous post of a major youth movement next year, but how do we acquire more draft picks? As it stands now, we are stuck with an inaccurate, aging QB who simply isn't getting the job done in any way, shape or form. This is particularly difficult for me to type, as I have been one of McNabb's biggest supporters, and I hate admitting the Eagles fleeced us, but it certainly looks that way right now.

I guess Boone, I would ask why should we patient, and what are we being asked to be patient for? If there was a genuine, honest to God youth movement, I'm good with that. I would be honestly fine going 3-13 next year if the average age of our starters was 23-24. But first, there is NO indication that is on the horizon, nor is there any plan (apparently) for how to get there.

exactly this is exactly how I feel (aside from supporting Mcnabb who I have never liked lol)
 

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Trust me, when this guy get's in the NFL he will be the next best thing since sliced bread. He's no VY or JR.

On November 21, 2008, Newton was arrested on felony charges of burglary, larceny and obstruction of justice after allegedly purchasing a stolen laptop from a student at the University of Florida. He was subsequently temporarily suspended by the team after the laptop was in fact found to be in his possession.

No thank you!
 

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Gotta say im with elephant on newton, hes a talent but 1- he wont be much of a pro qb and 2- he has serious character issues.

hes like a vince young/ mike vick only not as fast as vick. good in college, marginal as a pro unless everything is built around him.
 

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On November 21, 2008, Newton was arrested on felony charges of burglary, larceny and obstruction of justice after allegedly purchasing a stolen laptop from a student at the University of Florida. He was subsequently temporarily suspended by the team after the laptop was in fact found to be in his possession.

No thank you!
I'm with El on this one. Though I do think Newton will be a hell of a talent, he is not someone I would want on my team. All the stories about his father, his father's church and all that make me incredibly wary about him representing my team, talent or not.
 

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Havent heard anything about newtons dad guess im gonna go google lol

I should say, we will know after this offseason if we need to go in a different direction or not, it will be all about showing us if he has a plan or if he is just winging it. im not very hopeful though.
 

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This is not what a rebuilding team looks like. This is what a typical Redskin team looks like.

This team looks exactly like it has for the past decade. A nice streak of wins here and there, and then nothing for long stretches. This season looks a lot like '08. Some unexpected wins early and then the team settles into the excruciating practice of slowly bleeding out. This loss to the Giants looks no different that a half dozen other losses to them over the past few years.

That said, I don't see a point in replacing Shanahan or even Haslett right now. They should at least be given the chance to clean the mess up, even if the preliminary effort looks, well, not good.

Honestly, I'm starting to think this team won't go anywhere as long as Snyder owns the team. The way this team still plays and the way the front office still refused to take the draft seriously, I am finding it harder and harder to believe Snyder is sitting back doing nothing.

Maybe this offseason will prove me wrong. That's pretty much all I have to hang my hat on at this point.
 

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And there's always the most obvious possibility of them all: the fortunes and fate of the Washington Redskins are beyond the grasp of man.

Because God hates Daniel Snyder.
 

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Lots of good opinions - and here is mine...

In order to succeed in the NFL today, you need the right combination of players and coaches. Bill Belichik was a has-been until he was paired with Tom Brady. For whatever reason, that combo worked. Ditto for Shanahan/Elway. Same for Favre/Holmgren. McNabb/Reid too. Had none of these combos come to pass, chances are most of them would've been nothing more than serviceable, decent, and reliable journeymen.

I really believe there is more to Mike Shanahan coming to DC as head coach. Yes, it is to turn the franchise around. However, I think it is more than we know at this juncture and this is simply speculation from my own mind. So here goes...

Although they won't admit it publicly, the Redskins are in a rebuilding process and knew it the moment Coach Shanahan signed the contract. Go back to that first paragraph. Each one of those successful coaches were good coordinators, but nothing was certain when it came to the future. The only known coach was Belichik and his resume was sorely lacking. Coach Gibbs' first head coaching gig was with the Redskins. Too, he was an unknown.

The goal in DC is to get this franchise pointed in the right direction and hand it over to a good, young coordinator. Can you say nepotism? Normally, I would have a problem with such a scenario, but Kyle Shanahan should be ready to take the helm when the time comes. The team will have the many pieces in place and KS will be the young coordinator turned HC who leads them to the next level.

I may be saying things that are known to a certain extent, but KS can get the job done. It's a great short term and long term deal that could pay big dividends for the Redskins well into the future. For now, the common theme is patience and we need it more than ever. We have our Sean Payton in waiting. After the McNabb temp solution thing, KS will have his QB. Give it time - you will see. Have faith. Patiently endure. It will be worth it.
 

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Interesting way of looking at it BB. I learned a long time ago never to believe the conventional wisdom though. It was almost universally believed that Gregg Williams was not only being groomed to succeed Joe Gibbs, but that he had it stipulated in his contract. That proved to be utter bull**** when Gibbs finally called it quits. Not only was he not the heir-apparent, he wasn't even a legitimate candidate.

That's not to say that there haven't been conversations about young Kyle. And I'll keep an open mind about that possibility down the road. I just don't know that I buy into it being 'the plan'.

I'll be honest with you. When it comes to the Daniel Snyder-owned Redskins, I'm not sure there ever has been 'a plan', other than the one with 'Marketing' stamped across the top of it.

I'm very hopeful that, if Bruce Allen really does have the authority he's purported to have, that this may finally change.
 

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There wasn't a single good reason to switch to the 3-4 defense. Our personnel is lacking.

The driving point of any three front based defense is the nose tackle. Where I coach, we run the 3-3-5. We have solid nose tackles at both the JV and varsity level, so we can run the defense. We ideally would like to run a 4-4, but we have a ton of linebacker/athlete types guys and not as many linemen. So we stick with the 3-3-5. I can tell you we'd find another option if we lost our nose tackles.

We don't have a nose on this team. Kemoeatu is injured and at best below par. We are probably short on every defensive end as well. The only one who really fits is Carriker and he's backup grade.

Our linebackers are either aging or not a fit. I love Brian Orakpo, but he's still learning how to play linebacker. His play today should show everyone that. He's a very good pass rusher, a mediocre linebacker.

We have a ton of holes on both sides of the football.

But, the defense is compounded by the addition of Jim Haslett. Haslett in the last ten years, since 2000 has allowed over 24 points per game, and over 335 yards per game. Sure, he's also averaged 1.84 turnovers a game in that time span, but what good is that if you're giving up over 24 points a game? And not shocking to me, Haslett has stayed near his average in points allowed, but has allowed a ton more in the yards per game department.

We have some serious issues with this team and not a whole lot is going right. This offseason, assuming we have football next year, is crucial for Shanahan. I think he's going to see the need for a true rebuild and begin to part way with some of our more "classic" pieces.

But we'll see. I refuse to condemn Shanahan other than his insistance that we run a 3-4 defense (which Haslett has decided to make a 2-gap scheme, which is as far from a 4-3 as you can get...) but I wouldn't mind seeing Haslett back in the UFL next year... Or Dallas' defensive coordinator :)
 

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Isn't that the crux of the problem Boone and BB? We keep hearing about changes being made and then go out and trade for McNabb giving up draft picks in a move that now reeks of desperation. I know it is easy to second guess, hindsight being 20/20 and all. I was willing to, and did, give the Fo leeway with McNabb because I thought surely they know more than any of us about how to run a franchise.

I swear to God it looks like a pack of freaking monkeys could do better sometimes.
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