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Kel Varnsen

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How many people would have rather had Matt Ryan or Baker Mayfield, than Carson Wentz ?
I'm not saying I necessarily would, but I think it's worth considering.
Mayfield is a hard no. If this coaching staff can’t make Wentz successful, then they wouldn’t have any shot at making Baker successful. So I’d much rather have Wentz over Mayfield.

As for Ryan, the issue is if he is good this year, you still have no future. Will it run out next year when he has a huge cap number? So the longterm upside is not there. He may be good this year, but this team wasn’t ready to win this year. With Wentz, if he’s good, he has more years on the contract with a team friendly out and is younger.

On the salary cap side, Wentz is 28 million this year and can be cut after this year with no dead cap if he fails. If he succeeds, you have him for 2 more years at 26 and 27 million. Ryan is only 18 million this year, but is 35 million next year with an 18 million dollar cap hit if he’s cut. So he has to be really good next year to make up for that big number.

Bottom line for me is that Wentz was the smarter choice. It remains to be seen if he will be the better player this year, but I am of the belief it was the better choice when it had to be made.
 

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How many people would have rather had Matt Ryan or Baker Mayfield, than Carson Wentz ?
I'm not saying I necessarily would, but I think it's worth considering.
I would definitely take Matt Ryan over Wentz 5 years ago. Now? Probably not.

Personally, I prefer Mayfield over Wentz. Mayfield was hurt last year and he was not at his best. I think he is getting an unfair rap. I think the Browns made a big mistake letting him go.

Wentz had impressive stats last year, but he fumbles a lot. I believe he's had more fumbles than any QB over the past 5 - 6 years, because he has a tendency to hold onto the ball too long. QB ratings don't take that into account.

And Wentz makes REALLY bad decisions under pressure, as he demonstrated in the two games against the Titans and Jaguars last season. That left handed pass at his own goal line against the Titans? That's as bad as it gets.

I'm actually a big Heinicke fan and I would rather see him start over Wentz. I thought Heinicke showed a lot of promise last season in his first year as a starter. I think he would be even better this season. I'm disappointed that he won't be the starter.
 

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I would definitely take Matt Ryan over Wentz 5 years ago. Now? Probably not.

Personally, I prefer Mayfield over Wentz. Mayfield was hurt last year and he was not at his best. I think he is getting an unfair rap. I think the Browns made a big mistake letting him go.

Wentz had impressive stats last year, but he fumbles a lot. I believe he's had more fumbles than any QB over the past 5 - 6 years, because he has a tendency to hold onto the ball too long. QB ratings don't take that into account.

And Wentz makes REALLY bad decisions under pressure, as he demonstrated in the two games against the Titans and Jaguars last season. That left handed pass at his own goal line against the Titans? That's as bad as it gets.

I'm actually a big Heinicke fan and I would rather see him start over Wentz. I thought Heinicke showed a lot of promise last season in his first year as a starter. I think he would be even better this season. I'm disappointed that he won't be the starter.
I'm with you on Heinicke. I believe his performance suffered last year, when we became decimated with injuries and covid cases, leaving him with little protection up front, and little weapons, as I recall. I would have liked to see him get at least a chance with this upgraded offense surrounding him.
My issue with Wentz is people keep pointing to 2017, as if Wentz is suddenly going to regain the same form he had 5 years ago.
Heinicke is criticized for his height, yet he is listed as one inch taller than your namesake, who got our first Super Bowl win :)
 

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I'm with you on Heinicke. I believe his performance suffered last year, when we became decimated with injuries and covid cases, leaving him with little protection up front, and little weapons, as I recall. I would have liked to see him get at least a chance with this upgraded offense surrounding him.
My issue with Wentz is people keep pointing to 2017, as if Wentz is suddenly going to regain the same form he had 5 years ago.
Heinicke is criticized for his height, yet he is listed as one inch taller than your namesake, who got our first Super Bowl win :)
I completely agree. I think the coaching staff gave up way too quickly on Heinicke. The last 5 - 6 games of the season were a total disaster for this team, due to covid and injuries to the offensive line. Heinicke should not be judged based on that. I hope he gets another chance with this team.

I mean, Heinicke played nearly perfect games against both Tampa Bay and Carolina. And he was also the best player on the field against the Giants (first game), Falcons, and Raiders. Anyone who shows that kind of potential in their first season as a starter should be given another chance, in my opinion.

And Heinicke reminds me a lot of Theismann, I'm glad you brought that up. I think he has a lot of the same intangible qualities that Theismann had, just great playmaking instincts. It's not all about size and arm strength.
 

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I would definitely take Matt Ryan over Wentz 5 years ago. Now? Probably not.

Personally, I prefer Mayfield over Wentz. Mayfield was hurt last year and he was not at his best. I think he is getting an unfair rap. I think the Browns made a big mistake letting him go.

Wentz had impressive stats last year, but he fumbles a lot. I believe he's had more fumbles than any QB over the past 5 - 6 years, because he has a tendency to hold onto the ball too long. QB ratings don't take that into account.

And Wentz makes REALLY bad decisions under pressure, as he demonstrated in the two games against the Titans and Jaguars last season. That left handed pass at his own goal line against the Titans? That's as bad as it gets.

I'm actually a big Heinicke fan and I would rather see him start over Wentz. I thought Heinicke showed a lot of promise last season in his first year as a starter. I think he would be even better this season. I'm disappointed that he won't be the starter.
First of all - welcome to the site! We have a great group here and hope you stick around. I hear you on Wentz (and younger Matt Ryan). None of us knows which version of Wentz we’ll see in B&G. But I’ll keep saying it, last years version of Wentz would be the best QBing we’ve had in ages.

I love Heinicke. Guy is all moxie, grit, and toughness. But you can’t criticize Wentz for poor decision-making without also acknowledging it’s been a major issue for Heinicke. As much as I root for and love Heinicke, he just doesn’t have the arm to be a starter at this level. I like the comparison to Theismann but he doesn’t even have the arm Joe did. With Heinicke in the game, a good third of Turners playbook gets shelved because Taylor can’t make those throws.

If Wentz struggles or goes down, Heinicke will be the guy. But I think we’ll see the same things we’ve already seen. A super competitive gutsy leader who will play his heart out but who forces the ball at times and just can’t deliver the ball on a number of routes.
 

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First of all - welcome to the site! We have a great group here and hope you stick around. I hear you on Wentz (and younger Matt Ryan). None of us knows which version of Wentz we’ll see in B&G. But I’ll keep saying it, last years version of Wentz would be the best QBing we’ve had in ages.

I love Heinicke. Guy is all moxie, grit, and toughness. But you can’t criticize Wentz for poor decision-making without also acknowledging it’s been a major issue for Heinicke. As much as I root for and love Heinicke, he just doesn’t have the arm to be a starter at this level. I like the comparison to Theismann but he doesn’t even have the arm Joe did. With Heinicke in the game, a good third of Turners playbook gets shelved because Taylor can’t make those throws.

If Wentz struggles or goes down, Heinicke will be the guy. But I think we’ll see the same things we’ve already seen. A super competitive gutsy leader who will play his heart out but who forces the ball at times and just can’t deliver the ball on a number of routes.
Thank you for the warm welcome. I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree regarding Heinicke vs Wentz.

Most of Heinicke's mistakes come in blow-out losses, when Washington is already getting crushed by 20 points or more. That's when Heinicke starts making much riskier throws. In close games, Heinicke is rock solid the vast majority of the time.. Washington easily could have finished 3 - 14 last year if Heinicke had not played great against the Giants, Falcons, Bucs, and Panthers, which were all very close games. I think most NFL starters would have finished worse than 7 - 10 starting for this team last year. The Washington defense was just terrible last year, the worst I've seen in the 40 years that I've watched them.

I don't have nearly as much confidence in Wentz in close games. That Titans game and Jaguars game last year left a bad taste in my mouth about him.

And arm strength is vastly overrated at the NFL level. Every QB has a very good arm. Otherwise, they wouldn't be in the league. Playmaking ability and mental toughness are far more important factors for a successful NFL QB and Heinicke has that in spades.
 

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WELCOME!!!

This is going to come across like i'm bashing Heinicke, and I promise I'm not. I love the kid and his game, and I will root for him for the remainder of his career.

That said, Heinicke had a MAJOR knock about his decision making. He has had some games that have left us with our own face in our own hands because of decisions he's made and throws he's attempted. He appeared to be improved last year... but there were still some 'OH MY GOD" moments


The following play was a QB sneak up the middle that Heinicke tried to go over the top and couldn't... turned the ball over on downs.



I Promise this isn't an Anti- Heinicke post, it's just a post to point out some short comings of a guy. Wentz had two bad games to end the year, but not many people talk about Indy vs Baltimore. Indy had a 3 score lead in the 2nd half of that game and lost in OT. The defense completely failed. In that same game he lead 2 drives to get the Colts within FG range in the 4th quarter only to have 1 FG blocked and another missed. That loss counts the same amount toward the missing of the post-season as the late games.

I think they both have their restrictions, and they're actually a lot more alike regarding style of play. Heinicke has always been a guy to buy time and try to go Brett Favre... Wentz is the same way.... Wentz just has the arm to make 'all' the throws, which changes the dynamic of the defense Wentz can simply do things Heinicke cant.. If Wentz goes down, or can't hack it... Heinicke is there.. if Turner uses Wentz's abilities 'correctly'' this offense is much more dynamic and explosive with him than it has been since AT LEAST Kirk, and possibly even longer than that.
 

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In my opinion all we need to do is compare salaries to see which one is more worth it.
 

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In my opinion all we need to do is compare salaries to see which one is more worth it.

It's a valid point, but I still think there is a very hard ceiling with Heinicke.. and the ceiling with Wentz is much higher because of the arm.

If Wentz performs at a level we could have achieved with Heinicke under center... it's going to be a bad look. I personally think the risk was worth it, but they better be right
 

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I love what Heinicke did for this team and we can can sit here and and micro critique aspects and situations of both Wentz and Heinicke ( which by the way ST film breakdown was great !) but sometimes your going to simply run into someone who's just better then you which clearly in imo Wentz is the better QB.
 

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I love what Heinicke did for this team and we can can sit here and and micro critique aspects and situations of both Wentz and Heinicke ( which by the way ST film breakdown was great !) but sometimes your going to simply run into someone who's just better then you which clearly in imo Wentz is the better QB.
I've seen no clear evidence that Wentz is better than Heinicke, at least not in the past few years.

I also don't think the sample size is big enough for Heinicke yet to reach that conclusion. He has only started 1 season worth of games. No QB plays their best during their first season as a starter. On-field experience is very important for any QB, regardless if they're a #1 pick or an undrafted free agent like Heinicke.
 

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It's not completely a fair comparison, but when I see Heinike I often think about Rex Grossman. Both were big Brett Farve fans and both were hustle guys. Grossman was a bit more of a risk taker, but where I really see them the same is both saw the field and understood the field. The throws that get them in trouble were often the right ones to execute if they had Brett Farve's arm. Their eyes don't understand that they lack the velocity and strength to make the throws Farve did. That's why so many bombs where McLaurin was wide open became 50/50 jump balls by the time The ball arrived. Their minds are willing. Their arms can't quite do it.
 

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It's not completely a fair comparison, but when I see Heinike I often think about Rex Grossman. Both were big Brett Farve fans and both were hustle guys. Grossman was a bit more of a risk taker, but where I really see them the same is both saw the field and understood the field. The throws that get them in trouble were often the right ones to execute if they had Brett Farve's arm. Their eyes don't understand that they lack the velocity and strength to make the throws Farve did. That's why so many bombs where McLaurin was wide open became 50/50 jump balls by the time The ball arrived. Their minds are willing. Their arms can't quite do it.
I never really bought the "great arm" argument about QBs. After all, Favre threw more INTs than any QB in history. His great arm did not prevent that from happening.

I've seen the replays from last season. I never saw plays where McLaurin was "wide open" downfield. I thought Heinicke made several excellent throws downfield last season. When you are throwing a ball deep near the end zone, you also have to be careful not to throw the ball out of the end zone or out of bounds. That's why you sometimes have "jump balls".

I've seen every QB underthrow the ball sometimes, regardless of their arm strength.
 

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Interestingly, I remember hearing/reading that the long ball isn't the best example of arm strength. It's that mid-throw where you have to zip it in.

I still think Heinike is one of the best Cinderella stories we've had. Something happened around midseason. I'm not sure if it was injuries or if defenses figured him out and Turner wasn't able to come up with a plan B, but the journey from his sister's couch to midseason emergency QB to going toe to toe with Tom Brady to almost pulling a team that for the first half of the season played no defense to a winning record, was admirable. He's a great underdog story. It's just that the glass slipper doesn't quite fit.

If it did he wouldn't have been signed to a 2 million dollar contract. There would have been a bidding war on him last year or this year his agent while feeling out teams would have demanded a trade knowing there were a number of QB hungry ones out there who'd bid for him. The league verdict seems to be that Heinike can't quite get it done. My view is that he is a below average starter and a very good back up.
 

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Interestingly, I remember hearing/reading that the long ball isn't the best example of arm strength. It's that mid-throw where you have to zip it in.

I still think Heinike is one of the best Cinderella stories we've had. Something happened around midseason. I'm not sure if it was injuries or if defenses figured him out and Turner wasn't able to come up with a plan B, but the journey from his sister's couch to midseason emergency QB to going toe to toe with Tom Brady to almost pulling a team that for the first half of the season played no defense to a winning record, was admirable. He's a great underdog story. It's just that the glass slipper doesn't quite fit.

If it did he wouldn't have been signed to a 2 million dollar contract. There would have been a bidding war on him last year or this year his agent while feeling out teams would have demanded a trade knowing there were a number of QB hungry ones out there who'd bid for him. The league verdict seems to be that Heinike can't quite get it done. My view is that he is a below average starter and a very good back up.
It was covid and the injuries that just kept piling up, especially to the offensive line.

The Washington defense gave up 35 points in the first half against Dallas. That was the final nail in the coffin for this team last season. No QB is going to be successful under those circumstances.

The Washington defense was the worst last year that I've seen in the 40 years that I've been watching the team. That's why they lost 10 games. If the defense was just average last year, then Heinicke would still have his starting job.
 

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I do think that's possible. Like I said, I think Heinike is an NFL starter. I just fit him in the bottom third.

I have no idea where I put Wentz. Maybe top half? If he gets his act together could be higher.
 

Kel Varnsen

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It was covid and the injuries that just kept piling up, especially to the offensive line.

The Washington defense gave up 35 points in the first half against Dallas. That was the final nail in the coffin for this team last season. No QB is going to be successful under those circumstances.

The Washington defense was the worst last year that I've seen in the 40 years that I've been watching the team. That's why they lost 10 games. If the defense was just average last year, then Heinicke would still have his starting job.
Probably not the best game to brag on Heinicke. After the defense forced a punt on the opening possession of the game, Heinicke threw an INT on a really terrible pass. McLaurin beats Diggs and is wide open. The pass is late, underthrown, and to the inside where Diggs has position. He is able to catch up and make the easy INT. If the ball is thrown sooner, deeper, and to the outside where McLaurin has position, it's a foot race between McLaurin and Diggs to see if it's a TD. But it didn't happen, the pass was intercepted, and Dallas scores a few plays later. He also threw a pick 6 a few possessions later. At the end of the 1st quarter, it's 21-0 with 14 of Dallas points coming off interceptions. That game was terrible on all fronts and in all areas of the game, but Heinicke himself really crapped the bed in the 1st quarter digging the team a huge hole.

We all love Heinicke's heart and his desire, but he just doesn't have it to be a good NFL QB. And as far as comparing him to Wentz, there is no statistical or video analysis that shows that Heinicke is the better QB. I have my concerns with Wentz, but as was pointed out earlier, if Wentz puts up the same numbers as last year, this team can win 2 or 3 more games which puts them in playoff position. There is a reason they brought in Wentz and it's because they knew that they got all they could from Heinicke and it just wasn't enough. I'd love to see him succeed as he is such a great guy to root for, but he's very limited in what he can do and it shows during the games.
 

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Probably not the best game to brag on Heinicke. After the defense forced a punt on the opening possession of the game, Heinicke threw an INT on a really terrible pass. McLaurin beats Diggs and is wide open. The pass is late, underthrown, and to the inside where Diggs has position. He is able to catch up and make the easy INT. If the ball is thrown sooner, deeper, and to the outside where McLaurin has position, it's a foot race between McLaurin and Diggs to see if it's a TD. But it didn't happen, the pass was intercepted, and Dallas scores a few plays later. He also threw a pick 6 a few possessions later. At the end of the 1st quarter, it's 21-0 with 14 of Dallas points coming off interceptions. That game was terrible on all fronts and in all areas of the game, but Heinicke himself really crapped the bed in the 1st quarter digging the team a huge hole.

We all love Heinicke's heart and his desire, but he just doesn't have it to be a good NFL QB. And as far as comparing him to Wentz, there is no statistical or video analysis that shows that Heinicke is the better QB. I have my concerns with Wentz, but as was pointed out earlier, if Wentz puts up the same numbers as last year, this team can win 2 or 3 more games which puts them in playoff position. There is a reason they brought in Wentz and it's because they knew that they got all they could from Heinicke and it just wasn't enough. I'd love to see him succeed as he is such a great guy to root for, but he's very limited in what he can do and it shows during the games.
The point is that Wentz cannot put up the same numbers as last year. This offense is not as good as the Colts' offense. Having Jonathan Taylor at RB helped Wentz a lot. He is the best RB in the league. And the Colts still weren't able to make the playoffs.

I wasn't bragging about Heinicke's performance in the Dallas game. I was pointing out how awful the WFT defense was in that Dallas game, just like it was in numerous games last year.

I can easily pick on Wentz's game-breaking mistakes last year, just like you're doing with Heinicke. Until Heinicke throws a left-handed INT from his own end zone like Wentz did last year, I think I'll have the upper hand in that debate.
 

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Wentz was the #2 overall pick at one point. He was, and is, supposed to play like a top tier starter.

Heinicke came in during desperate times and played his best. This team didn't really do much to help develop him and basically dumped him for a past their prime QB.

I'm pretty nervous of Wentz considering the issues he's had just this week alone in camp.
 

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The point is that Wentz cannot put up the same numbers as last year. This offense is not as good as the Colts' offense. Having Jonathan Taylor at RB helped Wentz a lot. He is the best RB in the league. And the Colts still weren't able to make the playoffs.

I wasn't bragging about Heinicke's performance in the Dallas game. I was pointing out how awful the WFT defense was in that Dallas game, just like it was in numerous games last year.

I can easily pick on Wentz's game-breaking mistakes last year, just like you're doing with Heinicke. Until Heinicke throws a left-handed INT from his own end zone like Wentz did last year, I think I'll have the upper hand in that debate.

I would beg to differ regarding the offense not being as good...

Indy had a bottom 5 rated O-line last year. We had top 6. Now I will absolutely admit that I don't think we're 'that good,' but I think we are a step above that O-line. Nelson is an absolute stud, but as a whole I think we're better.

Taylor is possibly the best RB in the game right now so no argument there. Other than him, I think we have a clearly 'more talented' set of skill position players. Allie-Cox is a good TE but I don't thnk he's a level above Logan Thomas. As far as WRs go, I'd take our WR over theirs any day of the week.


I promise I'm not trying to berate you, I love the good back and forth.
 

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