QB or not QB

[Om]

Al Galdi pod this morning had Ryan Abraham of USCFootball.com on. A much different take on who Caleb Williams is than what we have been fed on social media.

Every year I'm amazed again at how quickly rumor and speculation become lore when it comes to the top QB's. What I will continue to hope is that, unlike under our previous regime, the people making the ultimate call this time will have the football acumen and perspective to make an educated decision.

 

[Boone]

You think crying after a big loss is a big red flag. That doesn’t make it a big red flag

I’m not advocating for him. I recommended listening to the comments of someone who has watched his whole career and knows a lot more about him than we do.

 

[MikefromOH]

I didn't mention that in my red flag post. I mentioned refusing to speak to media, his record, his ball security, and refusing to play in a bowl game.

The crying is something I don't like. My 10 year old cries when he loses ... sometimes

 

[Boone]

No, tomwvr did

 

[tomwvr]

You thinking crying after a big loss is a big red flag. That doesn’t make it a big red flag

I’m not advocating for him. I recommended listening to the comments of someone who has watched his whole career and knows a lot more about him than we do.

It just part of all the other issues. If you see everything it bring up a red flag. The other two qbs dont have these red flags.
And one of them played in the air raid offense in college. If we are going to run that offense that is who i would pick.

 

[Boone]

I think that IS who we’ll pick but it won’t be because of ‘red flags’, it will be because most GMs will likely view Williams as a rare QB talent and the Bears or someone who gives up a king’s ransom will take him with the #1 pick.

 

[Bulldog]

Not exactly in the “don’t want to” camp but I would be ok if that’s what they decide to do…

I don’t believe that, and I don’t think that’s really part of it for me.

For me I believe you can build a team different ways. I don’t believe you need a Patrick Maholmes or Tom Brady to win a Super Bowl or be a highly competitive team. I also laugh at the notion that there are can’t miss generational talents. They claim this shit all the time and it rarely works out. History is littered with busts.

If the 49ers front office is so smart (I think they are) and this stuff is so easy (I don’t think it is) then why did they whiff so hard on drafting their QB?

There’s a lot of smart people across the league doing this. And yet 9 other teams passed on Maholmes. You can find plenty of teams that passed on QB’s that turned out to be great. Same with other positions.

It’s hard. It’s hard to correctly evaluate these people. It’s hard to build an entire team that’s successful. This is a multi billion dollar league paying big money to smart people to figure this stuff out - and they miss all the time.

I scoff at the notion of can’t miss generational talent. So if Peter’s decides to pass on bringing in a rookie QB, because he thinks he needs to build a better foundation so when he finally does bring one in they can be successful, then I’m wholly on board that.

And ultimately I’m ok with believing Peter’s is way smarter at this than me, and giving him a chance to do this thing and see what the actual results are, before declaring decisions are bad. Even if that means not swinging at a QB right now, when there’s this much hype.

I agree its hard to find the position or it would be as easy as tanking and getting the #1 overall pick, etc.

But with the draft board set up with blue chip prospects near the top it's hard to see how a strategy of saying 'no quarterback in 2024' when we have the #2 pick and the chance to either select at that spot or move down to another in the top 15-20 and take someone else takes away a key leverage point for the organization in re qb talent.

There are historical outliers like Kurt Warner or Tom Brady out there that cost little to zero draft capital and produced HOF results.

But waiting on that type of 'find' later in the draft or even in the middle rounds with a Russell Wilson or Kirk Cousins is a longer shot.

Yes, teams passed on Mahomes. But he was still taken at #10.

Yes, teams passed on Herbert. But he was still taken at #7.

If you look at the teams that made it furthest in the postseason, Brock Purdy is really the only unheralded passer in that group advancing to at least the divisional round in the playoffs.

Most of these guys were first round draft choices, many in the top 15.

#1 picks
Mahomes
Goff
Allen
Love
Jackson
Stroud
Mayfield

So, in my mind if we are not taking a quarterback in Round 1 this year we will likely be back next year in Round 1 considering the position once again.

Except in 2025 we may not have the draft capital to make the kind of broad-based choice we have now.

EXCEPT FOR the #1/#1, we have the choice of ANYONE else.

That's a rare spot to be in.

 

[tshile]

I don’t fault anyone for refusing to play in a bowl game

Bowl games are a joke that’s only purpose is to put money in the sponsor and teams pockets. Football is a rough sport. And since colleges long ago gave up forcing a quality education on their players, in pursuit for more money for themselves, I really don’t feel right judging someone for not putting it all on the line in a meaningless game that only puts money in those other people’s pockets… under the guise of being a good team mate or being dedicated to the team.

I wish things were different, but they’re not. To me it’s like being mad at the LIV golfers when the US government and major corporations are in bed with the same people, and even some worse, all for the sake of an extra buck.


The whole system is corrupt to funnel money into the pockets of a few, at the expense of the players, so I have a hard time drawing a line and criticizing someone for not playing in a totally meaningless bowl game.

 

[MikefromOH]

I do. If I am a diehard fan and pay big money to fly where my team is going to play just to find out our starting QB and others are sitting out I'm pissed.

Injury is one thing; flat out refusal to play is another. This is a big issue to me with most college players, too.

 

[tshile]

Bulldog
I totally agree. That’s where I personally am.
I’m just providing a “but I’m ok if they decide to do something different” explanation. That’s all.

I’m not going to declare Peter’s and idiot and our team doomed if he passes on the current hype over QBs in the draft.

 

[Boone]

I think Williams takes a lot of cues (rightly or wrongly) from his father who is an overbearing bull in a China shop type like the Ball’s father (and perhaps to a lesser degree, RG3’s dad.

Not many athletes have the balls to eject their father from a controlling position or go against their ‘advice’ and wishes.

I suspect one can’t assess Williams actions to date or during this draft period without looking closely at Dad’s influence.

 

[tshile]

I do. If I am a diehard fan and pay big money to fly where my team is going to play just to find out our starting QB and others are sitting out I'm pissed.

Injury is one thing; flat out refusal to play is another. This is a big issue to me with most college players, too.

I totally expect a fan to feel that way.

And I totally expect Peter’s to bring a way better set of analysis tools and decision making to the table, than what is (usually) an emotional, tunnel vision view that fans have.

I don’t give a shit if their fans are mad he didn’t play. I couldn’t think of a thing I care less about.

I care whether he’s the best option for us, in the NFL, where every game matters and he’s being paid adequately (based on what the market says about qb pay)

 

[Bulldog]

No, I see your point. And to it I don't think Peters and Quinn brought in so many offensive coaches like Kingsbury and Johnson that have experience with rookie or first year starters to pass on the position in 2024.

Unlike Ron, I think both of these guys realize the key to success is identifying the leader of the offense and getting him in the building as soon as possible to move forward.

 

[Boone]

As we get into energetic conversations about what the team should or shouldn’t do, good to remind ourselves that we have no influence on any of it. The front office will do what it decides to do and we can choose to trust them or not. That’s about it.

 

[Primus Porcus]

I dont know man, there were a lot of the same character concerns about Johnny Manziel.

RG3 had very little character concerns coming out, in fact there were major supporting stories regarding him because of the military background of his family.

I think us as fans have a lot less experience analyzing, but we also see a lot of flags at times.

personally I feel like Williams has a major bust concern, and it's got absolutely nothing to do with his talent (or his race). It may ultimately not play out that way, but i've also seen how a volitile personality can find a way to fail in the NFL. There have been plenty that thrive on it, but not everyone. Fair or not, there are all kinds of stories that have come out making you wonder what his motivations truly are.... I dont know the kid, i can only react to the things we've seen... but again, none of that is race related

Deshaun Watson just got the BIGGEST contract in the history of the sport in regards to guaranteed money
Patrick Mahomes
Jordan Love
Tua
Jalen Hurts
Dak Prescott
Jacoby Brisett
Lamar Jackson
C.J. Stroud
Geno Smith
Justin Fields
Russell Wilson
Kylar Murray
Desmond Ridder
Bryce Young
Anthony Richardson
Josh Dobbs
Tyrod Taylor
P.J. Walker


All guys that had prominent roles as QB in 2023, and not all of them are considered elite beyond reproach. Ultimately I think owners want to win, and I don't think that's jaded by color anymore. Is everything perfect politically speaking? I don't even want to get into that as we've always avoided it on the board, but regarding the position of QB.... I don't think anyone on the NFL is going to pass on a guy that gives them a better chance to win because of their color.

 

[MikefromOH]

Well, I know what I'm saying will translate to more than tunnel vision or emotional. You see it with a lot of players just taking rest games or not being team players. Selfishness is a big red flag.

I also follow USC football since my family is out there and lifelong fans. We've talked football since aikman vs Peete was the big rivalry so I'm not tunnel visioned, either

 

[Bulldog]

Sometimes, though, what seems like the reasonable and most likely direction to take is exactly the one the organization takes

 

[Boone]

Listen to that Galdi podcast. I didn’t hear a peep about a volatile personality.

 

[tshile]

Boone
The father thing bothers me.
We have other examples of that, and I’m not quite sure any of them ended well.

On that note - the whole investing in being a “brand” is another red flag to me, when I see it.

 

[Bulldog]

I dont know man, there were a lot of the same character concerns about Johnny Manziel.

RG3 had very little character concerns coming out, in fact there were major supporting stories regarding him because of the military background of his family.

I think us as fans have a lot less experience analyzing, but we also see a lot of flags at times.

personally I feel like Williams has a major bust concern, and it's got absolutely nothing to do with his talent (or his race). It may ultimately not play out that way, but i've also seen how a volitile personality can find a way to fail in the NFL. There have been plenty that thrive on it, but not everyone. Fair or not, there are all kinds of stories that have come out making you wonder what his motivations truly are.... I dont know the kid, i can only react to the things we've seen... but again, none of that is race related

Deshaun Watson just got the BIGGEST contract in the history of the sport in regards to guaranteed money
Patrick Mahomes
Jordan Love
Tua
Jalen Hurts
Dak Prescott
Jacoby Brisett
Lamar Jackson
C.J. Stroud
Geno Smith
Justin Fields
Russell Wilson
Kylar Murray
Desmond Ridder
Bryce Young
Anthony Richardson
Josh Dobbs
Tyrod Taylor
P.J. Walker


All guys that had prominent roles as QB in 2023, and not all of them are considered elite beyond reproach. Ultimately I think owners want to win, and I don't think that's jaded by color anymore. Is everything perfect politically speaking? I don't even want to get into that as we've always avoided it on the board, but regarding the position of QB.... I don't think anyone on the NFL is going to pass on a guy that gives them a better chance to win because of their color.

To be fair though Manziel had drug problems which helped to derail his career. And his talent is nowhere near the level of Williams, projecting to the next level.