PFT: Washington may be in the Mariota business

Well...I guess you could analyze it.

I'm ok with going off what I remember and saw. But, please, feel free to do the leg work and post it. I fully support it.
 
Boone said:
I could sub the word 'competence' for 'experience' there just as easily. Colt could run the offense as designed and Robert struggled to. I understand your point but I think it's a lack of progress and even struggling with basics that has a lot of folks (even homers like me who loved Griffin and desperately want him to succeed) doubting he can be the guy.
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Interesting. I definitely disagree. Of course you can say it, but it would be less accurate. Having two additional years of experience in the NFL at the quarterback position is valuable, especially if it's in a similar style offense. Of course someone would look more competent with something they've been working on for years vs. someone who is learning new concepts and a new way of playing the position. I'll give Robert a couple of healthy years in this style of offense, here or elsewhere, before judging competence relative to McCoy.
 
I'm not ragging on Griffin, but come on guys, Griffin looked BAD at times. And we are talking about his 3rd NFL year. McCoy was on a brand new team, so that was a factor against him. McCoy was better and it wasn't close. I think the reasons why say more about where Griffin was than about 'all the advantages' McCoy had based on experience. It's fine that you disagree.
 
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MikeSr619 said:
Well...I guess you could analyze it.

I'm ok with going off what I remember and saw. But, please, feel free to do the leg work and post it. I fully support it.
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Next time I'm the one making broad categorical statements, I'll be sure to do so.
 
Om said:
Next time I'm the one making broad categorical statements, I'll be sure to do so.
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I guess we can go back and forth on this all day but it doesn't make any sense to.

I don't like to he called out or told to prove something strictly because you don't like what I said. If it matters that much to you please feel free to do it.

I also get the weird dynamic of owner/poster that allows this to go down. I'm not looking for any trouble but I'm not going to stop what I'm doing either just because you want me to break down 16 games to fulfill your desires.
 
What are you talking about? One poster asked another if he might consider supporting a statement. That's it.

If you need to talk about it more, PM me.
 
I don't need to talk about it more. I was fine in my original statement. :)
 
Om said:
There are so many factors at play here ...

Russell Wilson to me is considerably ahead of Robert is in the pocket ... and light years ahead out of it. His elusiveness and knack for making the right throw or scramble "off schedule" are simply on a different level.

Russell Wilson has had defense and special teams working for him that are so much better than Robert has it's hard to over-emphasize. It's a different game when a non-pocket-specialist like Robert HAS to throw the ball.

Jay Gruden: Playing with a lead will help Robert Griffin III succeed - The Washington Post

Wilson's had the advantage of being able to continue running a hybrid offense because he's rarely playing uphill trying to mount a comeback. Robert seems like he always is.

Combine the two things ... Wilson's simply been better at making plays, PLUS he's had the benefit of a great D ... and it isn't surprising Wilson's success rate has been so much better.

I think his better pocket skills would have helped the Redskins be better the last couple of years, even given our pass pro issues ... but given how awful our D and teams have been, he may well have suffered the same kinds of difficulties having to play from behind and throw all the time that Robert has.

Interesting to think ahead on this a bit ... given the attention we've paid to rebuilding our D so far this offseason, perhaps Robert won't have to face playing uphill like that on such a regular basis, and Jay can actually call the kind of hybrid offensive game I think he'd like to be able to if Robert shows up healthy and rarin' to go ...
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I don't disagree with much here, expect to maybe suggest that Wilson being better both in and out of the pocket in his offense is most likely due to the fact, in addition to the aforementioned defense to lean on, that Wilson has had three uninterrupted years to run the same offense. Given the general consensus that Griffin was the better player when they were both running similar offenses in 2012, I don't think it unreasonable to think Griffin's upward curve would have been similar to Wilson's.

My point was only to note that 2012 should not be a footnote to be cast aside, as Griffin should have been able to develop into a Russell Wilson-calibre player had he been drafted by a team with a competent front office. And he may still do so, if the Redskins now have a competent front office. But so many things have gone wrong is such a short period of time. It's simply mind-boggling, and I hold little hope.
 
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Boone said:
I'm not ragging on Griffin, but come on guys, Griffin looked BAD at times. And we are talking about his 3rd NFL year. McCoy was on a brand new team, so that was a factor against him. McCoy was better and it wasn't close. I think the reasons why say more about where Griffin was than about 'all the advantages' McCoy had based on experience. It's fine that you disagree.
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Of course its fine that we disagree. And I don't see many 'advantages' listed for McCoy. He has had more experience. It is a factor. Griffin looked absolutely lost at times, McCoy looked better. I hope Griffin gets a chance this year and is able to demonstrate growth and competence to everyone's satisfaction.

I should add that what does scare me about what I saw from Griffin last year is his apparent total lack of pocket presence, as others have mentioned as well. I personally have no doubt that he could learn and grow as a pocket passer, and be much more than McCoy ever will, but he may very well need an offensive line that is a wall of protection to accomplish it, and I don't see that happening any time soon.
 
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No real argument, Henry.

I do happen to think Wilson is as natural and dangerous on the move as any QB I can ever remember seeing ... his elusiveness is something I can only really remember seeing in old Staubach and Tarkenton highlights. :)

That said, he has clearly benefitted from health. Moving like that is not just talent, it's having that talent uncompromised by injury.

For what it's worth, I've never been one to diminish what Robert did on 2012. He was phenomenal. My point in these discussions has simply been to point out the various reasons I don't think it's realistic to expect him to recreate that dynamic. My HOPE is that he'll continue to progress in the more traditional QB elements, while also re-integrating some of his run threat stuff.

Whenever camp finally does start, it won't be soon enough.
 
Boone said:
In regards to none of the other QBs having any better luck than Robert - I think that's false. McCoy looked like an All Pro by comparison and if it weren't for the injury might still be our presumed starter. Cousins, while clearly fragile in terms of confidence, still looked far superior to Griffin despite throwing picks at will. Both McCoy and Cousins looked capable of running the offense as designed. Robert did not in my opinion.
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disagree Boone.

none of them looked like winners. McCoy is a career loser who lacks arm strength....that is...as folks like to say around here....a fact. Cousins wets his pants every time the pressure is really on....and in the process expands the Skins roster to the opposing team's secondary. if this team is gonna compete for championships, IMO, then the QB to get it done aint on this roster.
 
Boone said:
I'm not ragging on Griffin, but come on guys, Griffin looked BAD at times. And we are talking about his 3rd NFL year. McCoy was on a brand new team, so that was a factor against him. McCoy was better and it wasn't close. I think the reasons why say more about where Griffin was than about 'all the advantages' McCoy had based on experience. It's fine that you disagree.
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McCoy had one good game - and the reality is he threw an idiot pick in that game in the endzone - a very tight game. the d won that game...McCoy was good enough not to lose it. glad he beat dallas...but claiming he looked good because he didn't fair as badly as griffin is not a ringing endorsement.
 
True fan. I never really liked McCoy and was surprised at his success here. He's a guy you want on your roster and hope he doesn't get into the game. But that means Griffin has to be the guy to be in the game. Where I'm at with Robert is....let him be himself use him to his talents run him to death...I don't care. Just like running backs, run them and then run them some more. Then we move on, but I don't want to witness his pocket passing game. We can be more creative than that with him. Gruden has to get with that program.
 
Here are the actual facts:

McCoy came in for Cousins (as he imploded) in the Titans game and went 11/12 for 128 yards and a TD
McCoy then won us the Dallas game, going for 25/30 and 300 yards
Griffin was given the start against the Vikings (probably a mistake), went 18/28 and we lost on the road.
Against the Bucs, we got stomped, with Griffin going 23/32 and throwing 2 picks. Great!
Against the 49ers, we again got trucked, with Griffin completing just 11/19 for 106 yards. More impressiveness.
Gruden has seen enough, and Colt comes back against the Colts. He throws for almost 400 yards, completing 31/47 passes, 3 TDs, and no INTs.

Are we seeing a trend yet?

Against the Rams, Colt played poorly (aka, in line with Griffin's typical performance in 2014), completing 20/32 for 200 yards with a couple of picks, getting injured in the process.

So, no, he didn't have '1 good game'. He played great in relief against the Titans, he outright won us the Dallas game, he played fantastic against the Colts, and he had a poor showing against the Rams. Those are the facts.
 
True, and the other thing is that the goal here is for Scot to put together a team that can win a championship.

Keeping Griffin and simply having him run himself into the ground like hamburger meat isn't going to net this team a title down the road. That's a formula for having a 7-9 type team, better than last year, but still very mediocre and drafting out of the top picks in 2016.

The Wizards got into that kind of 'do loop' back in the late 1980's and 1990's where they ended up finishing 40-42 every year and picking #12 or #13 overall.

Too low to get an elite player that would help turn the franchise around or to make a trade for an impact veteran.

We don't want that to happen here.

Either the team decides Griffin can improve and develop or we need to get rid of him.
 
I'd rather not pattern the Redskins after a perennial laughingstock like the Wizards.

Besides,there's no comparison between the NBA and NFL drafts. In the NFL,impact players can be found outside the top five to seven picks, unlike the NBA.

2015 is the year that Griffin needs to shit or get off the pot.
 
Be careful, over the recent period, the Wizards have been a better team than the Redskins. The Redskins have in fact been the laughingstocks of the NFL along with the Raiders and Bucs for making bad picks, bad free agents moves and bad trades.

The Wizards made the playoffs 4 straight years, blew up the team after Arenas ties were cut, and now are 40-28 and on their way to another playoff appearance.

Redskins have a long way to go catch up to the other area teams.

Nationals are better.

Caps are better.

Wizards are better.
 
This conversation happens every once in a while but it always remains the same:

DC belongs to the skins. It will never change unless the team moves away.
 
micks113 said:
True fan. I never really liked McCoy and was surprised at his success here. He's a guy you want on your roster and hope he doesn't get into the game. But that means Griffin has to be the guy to be in the game. Where I'm at with Robert is....let him be himself use him to his talents run him to death...I don't care. Just like running backs, run them and then run them some more. Then we move on, but I don't want to witness his pocket passing game. We can be more creative than that with him. Gruden has to get with that program.
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If Griffin can't operate from the pocket, he needs to go away ASAP. We can still utilize his athletic ability, but you can't have a QB that can't be at least average in the pocket.
 
I don't want Griffin in the pocket. He doesn't get production from there. I want him to morph into more Wilson-like or Romo-like. Mobile throw on the run know your second reads at all times, then make the play and avoid injury. That's what I want out of Griffin. That doesn't mean pistol or tricked up offense. We can be more creative. Griffin can be more versatile and Gruden can improve his playcalling. Like in Cinn. Gruden's forte was the defense didn't know what play was coming. He was out coaching the opponent. We need to get back to that and utilize Griffin to do it. IMHO
 
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