PFT: Washington may be in the Mariota business

[MikeSr619]

 

[Shi no Tenshi]

Huge difference between being self-centered and egotistical.

Robert is self-centered...most of what he does is to elevate himself, sometimes to the detriment of the whole, but I don't doubt he is a nice guy.

Cutler is egotistical...he's a dick. Always about him, and **** you if it's not.

I can get behind that thought process, but sub out the words and my point stands

I mean, I don't necessarily agree with you on the magnitude of how he thinks of himself, but I can easily see why you think it. I just don't see how all that applies to that specific incident. I know very well you have plenty of other points to stand with though. We've all unfortunately be exposed to it for the past couple years. Here's to hoping things change this year, and if not...well, time to try again on the QB front.

At least this time, I have faith that the team will be built in a more solid fashion to help our QB out, so it doesn't have to be all about the QB saving us

 

[Bulldog]

The trouble with Robert was he came into the league and figured he was a leader, before he looked around and realized he had a lot to learn before he himself was anything close to a finished product. Instead of talking so much as a rookie to the media perhaps he should have been more humble and gone about his business with greater professionalism.

You come out as an attention hound and the media picks up on that and every little thing gets magnified.

He was as talkative in 2012 and 2013 as Joe Theismann was after winning a Super Bowl.

And we all know how talkie Joe can be.

 

[MikeSr619]

Maybe the problem is your expectations of a dude who was just who he was.

 

[micks113]

This has always puzzled me. Personally, I view this as not only the stupidest coaching decision in team history, but also the worst coaching decision in the NFL over the last 40 years.

I can't think of a single worse instance than trading away so much for one player, playing him on an obviously bad wheel, and absolutely crushing him in his very first season.

It amazes me that the contempt for Shanahan isn't equal to that for Vinny within our fan base. Maybe it will just take more time.

Yeah Shanahan really screwed that up royally. There was more than him involved as I remember. Wasn't Dr Andrews on the sideline? Didn't Shanny say Dr. said he was OK to go in? Didn't Dr. say he never said that? Didn't Griffin say he was OK to play? The whole situation was a mess and lacked any following of any player safety procedures that, at the time, I think the NFL was trying to make changes there. But Shanahan never owned up to it. Plus, he left a lot up to his son who did not answer to him like a OC should answer to head coach. I hated that nepotism. The son is to blame as well.

Anyway, it was on Shanahan for screwing up his career and as fans seem to have wanted, the offense was scrapped for a RGIII friendly offense that emphasized his physical talents. It paid off in the short run, but the experts knew all along you don't win in the NFL with a running QB.

By the way, in regards to Chip Kelley, No no and no he couldn't come in here and make something out of Griffin catering to his strengths. Hasn't anyone on here seen Chips press conference last week, where he emphatically said he did not want a running QB on his team. He wants a passing QB that can run, not a running QB that can pass. He has moved on from that type of QB. Look who's on his roster now for validation of that.

 

[micks113]

No. I would blame The Redskins for The Redskins' failures. I don't care who the QB is. If you pull Griffin and promptly go 1-3 with the next guy and then 1-4 with the next guy, it ain't Griffin. The team just sucks. I think what I get hung up on is blaming Robert's failures for the team playing like crap. All I'm doing is reminding, uh, revisionists, that the only season over the past eight years the team HASN'T played like crap is because of Griffin. Those of you thinking that removing him from the equation makes this team better may as well be saying 0-0=10.

I never said that and don't know who did. Removing Griffin doesn't make us better, he's the best we got, just not good enough. I thought the discussion here was about Gruden blamed for Griffin's shortcomings. And yes I do agree with you that every player and coach and front office was to blame for the debacle. Not just Griffin. THAT we can agree on.

I don't have a crystal ball but the next three years I see Griffin gone soon, maybe after this year, then Gruden will remain the transition coach until his fourth year, allowing time for McLovin to build the team into something that can contend. Then we bring in the new coach to run that team and make the playoffs. That's kind of where I'm at. This year a lost cause but am excited to see the front office overhaul, and the roster rebuild in progress. That makes me happy, but I'm not foolish enough to think we'll field a winner any time soon. I just hope we are not out of it by end of September. That sucks.

 

[micks113]

I didn't mean to imply that anyone here thinks McCoy is our future. I don't think anyone thinks that.

Except maybe Gruden.

I was just trying to explain why a backup may have looked more comfortable than a starter for a few games. It happens all the time.

The simple answer is that colt is veteran. That's why team put vets in backup roles and is preferred. Colt looked like he had been there before. Griffin looked lost as did Cousins. What you saw was experience, nothing more, nothing less. And compared to Robert that looked pretty good at the time.

 

[stevenaa]

Did Jason Campbell or John Beck ever have a 2012 season?

You guys seriously need to stop pretending it never happened. While it may (will) never happen again, it is important context here.

It happened but there is some context that is important. It was a new offense that teams didn't know how to defense, and it utilized his skills in a way that was never going to be sustainable. And it wasn't intended to be. It was supposed to be a bunch of stuff he was comfortable with why he learned the pocket game. He's lost some of his dynamic running ability due to the injuries and defenses are better able to defense it. The only choice is for him to be effective in the pocket. When I watch him play, I see missing key ingredients that I believe are natural and not learned. Pocket feel and anticipation on throws. I think you have this or you don't. I personally don't think 2012 foretells anything about his future potential because that was a one off that is not duplicable. He's shown no signs yet that he can learn what's needed, but with the injuries he's had little quality time on the field to do so. Hopefully this is the year he stays healthy and can show he is able to progress. It will have to be significant progress to overcome the contract situation.

 

[micks113]

Wow! Robert got us into the playoffs pretty much by himself in 2012. Was injured in 2013, and last year, was in the first year of a new offense when he dislocated an ankle in a freak accident. He showed signs of understanding Gruden's defense at the end of last season...even Gruden admitted that.

The team has invested in a qb coach. Now, if he's given half a decent o-line, Robert will come out and dominate...just watch.

Everyone throwing RG3 under the bus should probably focus on Gruden's short-comings. I suspect his ego is much, much bigger than RG3's, and a guaranteed contract probably makes him feel invincible.

Gruden has hired a DC who is suspect. He was wrong about Cousins. He was wrong about McCoy. He verbally slammed Alfred early in the season, and thought Haslett should have kept his job.

Oh, and for those who say we would have slammed Gibbs his first year, I'd remind them that the team offense improved immediately and the team finished on a strong note.

Gruden's squad was pathetic and ended the year in a hapless state.

Robert could end up being his savior.

Nobody said slam Gibbs in year 1. The analogy was that they were both rookie head coaches and all rookie head coaches suffer some adjustments to have to make. If you were witnessing the Joe Gibbs year #1, I distinctly remember that Joe said after the 5 game losing streak to start, and I quote him, that "I thought I was going to be fired". In that respect, Gruden probably had those same thoughts sometime during year 1. But also remember that Joe's team was far superior to Gruden's. But we stuck with him, like we should with a rookie coach. Its not the Squire, its Snyder, and I trust that he's learned that now.

Robert hasn't had much of a chance with his injury status. If we want to continue to look at that as root cause of his career thus far, remember this. Robert has not had one single year, that is 12 full months of good health. He has a one offseason, but that was not 12 months removed from the prior injury. Same with the ankle. He will have this offseason to work out, but still has not had a 12 month period of rehab before he is going to be thrust out there again. I want Robert to make it and with Gruden for 5 more years at least. I don't see it, Robert has had lots of bad luck and I don't think he'll ever be able to achieve his potential.

 

[Boone]

The simple answer is that colt is veteran. That's why team put vets in backup roles and is preferred. Colt looked like he had been there before. Griffin looked lost as did Cousins. What you saw was experience, nothing more, nothing less. And compared to Robert that looked pretty good at the time.

I could sub the word 'competence' for 'experience' there just as easily. Colt could run the offense as designed and Robert struggled to. I understand your point but I think it's a lack of progress and even struggling with basics that has a lot of folks (even homers like me who loved Griffin and desperately want him to succeed) doubting he can be the guy.

 

[Ax]

Exsqueeze me. Mr Buttinski here.

Nobody said slam Gibbs in year 1. The analogy was that they were both rookie head coaches and all rookie head coaches suffer some adjustments to have to make.

The problem with the analogy was that it insinuated that Gibbs had the same kind of a rookie season as Gruden. Nothing could be further from the truth. The only common theme was that they both were rookie head coaches. Their performances were nowhere near the same.

If you were witnessing the Joe Gibbs year #1, I distinctly remember that Joe said after the 5 game losing streak to start, and I quote him, that "I thought I was going to be fired". In that respect, Gruden probably had those same thoughts sometime during year 1.

Yeah, I was there. Joe said the same thing most of his career, during both stints, when things weren't going well. That's just old school concern about losing your job for perceived poor performance. He also didn't have a guaranteed contract. I doubt Gruden worried about getting fired at all. Even if he did, $35mil would have a soothing effect, don't you think?

But also remember that Joe's team was far superior to Gruden's. But we stuck with him, like we should with a rookie coach.

But also remember, Joe's coaching ability was far superior to Gruden's. I don't have a single doubt that Joe could have gotten more out this team, even his rookie year, than Jay did. Of course I can't prove that. We definitely need to stick with Gruden, for at least another season. Show some improvement, and he gets another year. If all he does is match last years lack of leadership, in game adjustments, diarrhea of the mouth at the microphone, and unwillingness to use what he has instead of pining for what he doesn't, then he should be fired.

 

[MikeSr619]

I could sub the word 'competence' for 'experience' there just as easily. Colt could run the offense as designed and Robert struggled to. I understand your point but I think it's a lack of progress and even struggling with basics that has a lot of folks (even homers like me who loved Griffin and desperately want him to succeed) doubting he can be the guy.

I remember gruden changing plays and catering to colts style yet when Griffin came in it was a very strict "my way only" approach. He was very hypocritical in how he handled colt differently than any other qb and it was pretty obvious he favored colt

 

[Boone]

I remember gruden changing plays and catering to colts style yet when Griffin came in it was a very strict "my way only" approach. He was very hypocritical in how he handled colt differently than any other qb and it was pretty obvious he favored colt

I think all of the factors are intertwined. Gruden is watching the QB more closely than anyone (and unlike us, knows what the QB is supposed to be doing on every call). I think it's much more likely he handled the QB's differently based on what he was seeing, vs. favoritism or having some agenda. In other words he may we'll have favored Colt, but the basis for that might've been because Colt was following the plan, executing plays as designed, and Robert wasn't.

 

[Henry]

It happened but there is some context that is important. It was a new offense that teams didn't know how to defense, and it utilized his skills in a way that was never going to be sustainable. And it wasn't intended to be. It was supposed to be a bunch of stuff he was comfortable with why he learned the pocket game. He's lost some of his dynamic running ability due to the injuries and defenses are better able to defense it. The only choice is for him to be effective in the pocket. When I watch him play, I see missing key ingredients that I believe are natural and not learned. Pocket feel and anticipation on throws. I think you have this or you don't. I personally don't think 2012 foretells anything about his future potential because that was a one off that is not duplicable. He's shown no signs yet that he can learn what's needed, but with the injuries he's had little quality time on the field to do so. Hopefully this is the year he stays healthy and can show he is able to progress. It will have to be significant progress to overcome the contract situation.

Again, Russell Wilson runs a similar offense, has for three years, and has gone to back-to-back Superbowls with it, as recently as ... a month ago? Since Wilson has started the Seahawks have ranked 1st, 2nd and 2nd in rush attempts, 32nd, 31st and 32nd in pass attempts, and have never been higher than 26th in passing yards. This past season he rushed for 850 yards. It's not some basic pro-pass game with some read-option sprinkled in. It's a VERY run-heavy offense that relies on Wilson's run-threat to give him time to throw the ball.

Defenses do not adapt to QBs that can do that, especially one that has a RB to keep the defense honest ... which the Redskins have had. Wilson has two things going for him that Griffin did/does not: He has an amazing defense to rely on, and he knows when to slide/throw the ball away. That's it.

Your point about Griffin being injured and slowed down is exactly right. We haven't seen Griffin do anything like 2012 because he was slowed down in 2013 and dislocated his ankle in 2014. The guy may be injury prone beyond repair at this point. But if he's not, he is capable of running a very effective offense in this league. Wilson does it. He could do it. At the VERY least, until Griffin learns to adapt to a more traditional offense himself.

And if Griffin or Gruden or the other powers that be insist on forcing him to abandon what's been working, the team needs to be patient. For whatever reason, in typical Redskin fashion Griffin has been asked to run three different offenses in three years. Under the circumstances, watching 3 or 4 or 7 games in which Griffin looks utterly lost and saying "He can't play" is, in my opinion, crazy. Sorry.

When healthy the kid has the tools to be a fantastic QB at this level. He's BEEN a fantastic QB at this level. He may be broken physically and psychologically beyond repair at this point. I'm sure the Redskins will find out this year.

 

[Om]

There are so many factors at play here ...

Russell Wilson to me is considerably ahead of Robert is in the pocket ... and light years ahead out of it. His elusiveness and knack for making the right throw or scramble "off schedule" are simply on a different level.

Russell Wilson has had defense and special teams working for him that are so much better than Robert has it's hard to over-emphasize. It's a different game when a non-pocket-specialist like Robert HAS to throw the ball.

Jay Gruden: Playing with a lead will help Robert Griffin III succeed - The Washington Post

Wilson's had the advantage of being able to continue running a hybrid offense because he's rarely playing uphill trying to mount a comeback. Robert seems like he always is.

Combine the two things ... Wilson's simply been better at making plays, PLUS he's had the benefit of a great D ... and it isn't surprising Wilson's success rate has been so much better.

I think his better pocket skills would have helped the Redskins be better the last couple of years, even given our pass pro issues ... but given how awful our D and teams have been, he may well have suffered the same kinds of difficulties having to play from behind and throw all the time that Robert has.

Interesting to think ahead on this a bit ... given the attention we've paid to rebuilding our D so far this offseason, perhaps Robert won't have to face playing uphill like that on such a regular basis, and Jay can actually call the kind of hybrid offensive game I think he'd like to be able to if Robert shows up healthy and rarin' to go ...

 

[MikeSr619]

I think all of the factors are intertwined. Gruden is watching the QB more closely than anyone (and unlike us, knows what the QB is supposed to be doing on every call). I think it's much more likely he handled the QB's differently based on what he was seeing, vs. favoritism or having some agenda. In other words he may we'll have favored Colt, but the basis for that might've been because Colt was following the plan, executing plays as designed, and Robert wasn't.

To me it seemed like he ran with colt yet with Griffin it was strictly pocket passing. Whether you believe he knows more or not it's silly not to play to one guys strengths yet play to them with a player who can't do it like the first one can.

 

[Om]

Mike, why not look at some of the game logs from last year and see if there's a clear disparity in the kinds of play-calling Jay used with Robert vs Colt--most importantly when the games were still close?

 

[MikeSr619]

I'm not gonna do that. I'm perfectly content in knowing I'm not making this up or mistaken in it. We all saw it last year and in chat it was a hot topic week after week.

That is until colt was put on the IR for being used prematurely and hurt seriously

 

[MikeSr619]

Nfl network is saying that gruden needs to let Griffin play from the gun some, run some, and be who he is. To try and make him a pocket passer is silly and counter productive.

They said his footwork needs a lot of work but that gruden can't expect to completely change a qb in 2 seasons.

 

[Om]

Looks like the NFL Network doesn't want to analyze game logs either.

Or account for injury.

Or assess performance on those rare occasions that come up in NFL games when a QB actually has to drop back and throw the football.

It's a common theme.