PFT: Washington may be in the Mariota business

[Om]

John, all of that is true and fair. The injuries have had a major effect on his development and effectiveness so far. His recovery is hopefully complete as he heads into 2015, and it will allow him to move forward with confidence as he slides around the pocket making his reads.

 

[Boone]

John, all of that is true and fair. The injuries have had a major effect on his development and effectiveness so far. His recovery is hopefully complete as he heads into 2015, and it will allow him to move forward with confidence as he slides around the pocket making his reads.

And I'm certainly not putting that out there as some all-encompassing excuse for what amounts to 2+ years of underachieving. But it has been a significant factor. I also believe that Griffin hasn't been quite as woeful as most of us describe. I would characterize his play the last 2 years as average to below average compared to all NFL QBs, but given where he set the bar in year 1 it feels much worse than perhaps it was...

 

[Om]

Henry, it's a matter of degree. How much "struggle" is enough? How bad does a guy have to look, or how long can you go with him if he doesn't progress, before a team has to get him off the field? Is there such a point?

 

[micks113]

Seriously? Revisionism?

... seriously?

During that particular nine-game stretch Griffin won Rookie of the Week four times. We had a top five offense during that stretch. When you're losing games 28-31 and 31-38 while your QB scores 5 TDs, it's not QBs fault. Griffin played at an extremely high level all season long. We were losing because our defense was terrible. If there's any revisionism going on, it's not on the end of those who rightly recognize Griffin had an amazing rookie season.



If Gruden was brought in because he suggested he could put an offense together that Griffin could run then, yes, Gruden gets a nice big share of the blame here. He saw Griffin, a guy one year removed from the aforementioned and objectively supported Rookie of the Year season, and in all of one training camp and a few games said "screw it. I can't work with this guy." Whatever Griffin's shortcomings, and I know he has them, such a quick unwillingness or inability to adapt to the supposed centerpiece of our offense is not an encouraging sign. This isn't really about Griffin. In my opinion he's most likely done here. This is about Gruden, who I'd be more concerned about since he's likely not done here.

Now I wasn't in the room when Gruden was interviewed. Maybe he said "Dan, I don't like Griffin and he has to prove to me he's awesome or I'm cutting his ass." Or maybe he said "Dan, I am going into the season with an open competition at QB. I don't know Griffin and I don't care what he did when he was healthy." Hell, maybe he said "Dan, I know Griffin won Rookie of the Year but he secretly sucks so don't expect him to get a lot of slack from me."

But I'm guessing he didn't say that. And my impression is his impatience and his penchant for making short-term, reactionary decisions ... in a very public and sloppy manner I might add ... is going to be a problem going forward, regardless of who the Redskins' QB eventually turns out to be.

We know Griffin got the award. But I'll say it again, 3-6 was nothing to brag about. And I do put stock in Robert telling Alfred during the last game that he was MVP. From the horses mouth, I go with that. From that point onward, it was all about the injuries as the reason for performance. And I have said before, he is an injury bust first. But what made him special is gone, and once rehabed from the injuries, we can see his weaknesses in playing a prototypical, conventional QB position. Whether he prepared or not is for the coach to decide. And he decided. Better for him to have made that call than to keep Griffin under center and completely destroy his confidence and his future. But the apologists are hung up on blaming Gruden for Robert's failures.

As to your second paragraph, I don't know why Gruden was brought in here and nobody else does either, fan62 notwithstanding, no matter how much he wants to suggest otherwise. Remember this, Robert was already benched before Gruden ever arrived. Fact. I never heard anything remotely truthful that Gruden has said "I can't work with this guy". In my opinion, Gruden has given him plenty of chances, then at the end of 2015, we hear Griffin say....."well, I played last year without being healed from the ankle." Where I come from, that was another injury excuse only this time from Robert himself. Very disingenuous. What do you expect a coach to do if the player is playing these type games?

Fast forward to last month, Gruden says Robert is the #1 guy. Come on people, coach would not say that if what you all say is remotely true, that Gruden can't work with this guy. You better believe that Gruden is not mincing words about Robert during this important time for McLovin to game plan a roster. He must know how each player fits in to the big long term picture. I fully believe that Gruden will speak the truth to him, after all, its in the Redskins best interests (and Jay's) to do so.

You are right about one thing. This is not about Griffin, or Gruden, its about the Redskins and what's best for this franchise now that the staff and front office has been overhauled. What's best for the team usually comes with collateral damage. Most of the times we like to say the coach and QB are connected at the hip and in the event of failure both go. I don't know that that is the case this time, I don't think Gruden wants to go down with Griffin. And furthermore, I don't think the whole 2015 season is going to have to play out for us to know. We start out slow once again like we always do, and I can assure you Griffin will be pulled. It won't take the whole season, I give it the first three games before we get an inkling what is about to happen. The debacle will be in play if we are 1-3 or 0-3 to start.

 

[Om]

And I'm certainly not putting that out there as some all-encompassing excuse for what amounts to 2+ years of underachieving. But it has been a significant factor. I also believe that Griffin hasn't been quite as woeful as most of us describe. I would characterize his play the last 2 years as average to below average compared to all NFL QBs, but given where he set the bar in year 1 it feels much worse than perhaps it was...

John, I think maybe more than many here, I was on board with the assessment Jay had of Robert's play when it came very specifically to his understanding and execution of the most basic elements of the drop-back passing game. His assessment meshed almost viscerally for me with what my own amateur eyes were seeing.

That feeling was reinforced by other analysts and observers as well ... lots of them ... to the point I thought it was pretty widely accepted that Robert, for whatever reasons, wasn't just failing to progress, but was in truth "not even close," as Jay so infamously said.

Brother, I hope I was wrong, an Jay was wrong, and all the analysts were wrong. Or at least, if they weren't, that Robert comes out this spring and shows us all that what we thought we saw was aberration or illusion, and he really is the guy we so giddily made t-shirts and slogans about such a short time ago.

Because if he is, I don't believe even the Jay Gruden some around here seem to believe he is could screw it up.

 

[fansince62]

Actually, I won't even concede this point. It's your perception that 'poor coaching and bad decision-making were major contributing factors to the final record'. It may or may not be a fact.

It's just as (if not more) likely that a lack of quality quarterback play, injuries, horrible defensive coaching, and a generally sub-par roster were the primary factors.

Of course Gruden is 'accountable'. But there's a reason NFL coaches get 3-5 year contracts. It takes time to transition a losing team to a more successful one. It takes time.

all good points...and I seeded a response in an earlier post anticipating this: we didn't see any evidence of corrections being made early, mid or late season. the same problems persisted throughout. btw.....as an example....constant screens behind the los that only work a couple times out of every 5 or 6 and routinely bad calls on 3rd and long are...IMO....coaching indicators.

reducing to bare minimum vis what led to the poor play we saw last season....the arguments from Day 1 have basically centered around two camps:

1) we have a new coach saddled with limited talent overall and poor QB play. accountability for the product on the field can't be assigned to him. that's what lies at the heart of what many are saying.

2) we have a coach who was hired to fix problems based on HIS past performance and supposed skills who was part of the problem. he ran a merry-go-round at the QB position, allowed the defense to continually commit very basic mistakes (i.e., as the leader didn't DIRECT it be corrected - e.g., the communication issues in the secondary), botched up his media presence.

McL will eventually restock the roster and we will have a winner. Gruden can get his offense to work certainly better than what we saw last season - there is too much talent on that side of the ball not to. so long as I am here, however, I will keep to the theme I know to be true: this guy is not a leader.

 

[fansince62]

I'm not sure how you "scheme around" an NFL QB who can't handle the basics of a passing game. Particularly if he can't, or won't, run the ball effectively enough to make that the foundation of the offense.

I don't think his reticence to run the read-option is alleged, either, so I guess maybe that's where aren't seeing the same things.

I see a guy who thrived when the read-option was new, he was on fire physically, and what he was asked to do in the passing game was very, very basic. But when a combination of his health, (alleged) reticence to run the ball and defensive adjustments limited that effectiveness, and he was asked to also develop his skills as a pocket passer ... he didn't or couldn't. I mean, really, and beyond any shadow of doubt, didn't or couldn't. Beyond asking the rest of the team to "take their lumps" while zigging to his zagnut.

End of the day I don't believe the bulk of the fault for that is/was on the coaching staff. As with most things though, this one is unlikely a simple either/or ... still, if I had to put my own money on which side of the equation earned the preponderance of the blame, it's on Robert.

Good news is he has a chance to utterly and completely change a whole lot of minds this year. I hope like hell his eyes hold up from all the studying he best be doing.

so...I will run by you what others toss at me...and also note a contradiction:

1) How do you know Griffin's mindset and what he will/won't cooperate with?

2) We do know after 2012 there were dueling banjos in the media over statements from the Griffin camp that he wanted to run less and adapt more to conventional pocket passing techniques. that doesn't fit the meme.

per Mike's post...I think he has a valid point vis not enough time. Griffin does have issues anticipating - no doubt in my mind. but, were I in his shoes, and in synch with just about every QB we have had since 1992 - these QBs get gunshy after repeatedly getting pounded in the pocket. this isn't something that started with Griffin. there have been some lulls (e.g., Thomas o-line years), but overall it's been open season on Skins QBs.

 

[fansince62]

John, I think maybe more than many here, I was on board with the assessment Jay had of Robert's play when it came very specifically to his understanding and execution of the most basic elements of the drop-back passing game. His assessment meshed almost viscerally for me with what my own amateur eyes were seeing.

That feeling was reinforced by other analysts and observers as well ... lots of them ... to the point I thought it was pretty widely accepted that Robert, for whatever reasons, wasn't just failing to progress, but was in truth "not even close," as Jay so infamously said.

Brother, I hope I was wrong, an Jay was wrong, and all the analysts were wrong. Or at least, if they weren't, that Robert comes out this spring and shows us all that what we thought we saw was aberration or illusion, and he really is the guy we so giddily made t-shirts and slogans about such a short time ago.

Because if he is, I don't believe even the Jay Gruden some around here seem to believe he is could screw it up.

OM...as a thought experiment....do you think there is zero probability a coach like Chip Kelley could not evolve an offense and groom Griffin to be a successful QB? because I have heard a lot of analysts say he could. aside from what Henry has stated, which I agree with, the other factor in all of this is that, by all appearances, Gruden decided very early on it was going to be his way or no way. he was not going to adapt his offense - in short, he tacitly decide he was more than ok to let the circus we observed last season play out its logic.

 

[Bulldog]

Griffin is working out with his guru Terry Shea so we will have to see.

All I remember about Shea is the last time he said Griffin was working in his footwork and looked good, he came in and was dreadful in his technique and execution.

 

[Henry]

We know Griffin got the award. But I'll say it again, 3-6 was nothing to brag about. And I do put stock in Robert telling Alfred during the last game that he was MVP. From the horses mouth, I go with that. From that point onward, it was all about the injuries as the reason for performance. And I have said before, he is an injury bust first. But what made him special is gone, and once rehabed from the injuries, we can see his weaknesses in playing a prototypical, conventional QB position. Whether he prepared or not is for the coach to decide. And he decided. Better for him to have made that call than to keep Griffin under center and completely destroy his confidence and his future. But the apologists are hung up on blaming Gruden for Robert's failures.

No. I would blame The Redskins for The Redskins' failures. I don't care who the QB is. If you pull Griffin and promptly go 1-3 with the next guy and then 1-4 with the next guy, it ain't Griffin. The team just sucks. I think what I get hung up on is blaming Robert's failures for the team playing like crap. All I'm doing is reminding, uh, revisionists, that the only season over the past eight years the team HASN'T played like crap is because of Griffin. Those of you thinking that removing him from the equation makes this team better may as well be saying 0-0=10.

As to your second paragraph, I don't know why Gruden was brought in here and nobody else does either, fan62 notwithstanding, no matter how much he wants to suggest otherwise. Remember this, Robert was already benched before Gruden ever arrived.

Yeah. And the coach who benched Griffin was fired. You don't think Griffin and his role on the team was discussed at all in coach's interviews?

Fact. I never heard anything remotely truthful that Gruden has said "I can't work with this guy". In my opinion, Gruden has given him plenty of chances, then at the end of 2015, we hear Griffin say....."well, I played last year without being healed from the ankle." Where I come from, that was another injury excuse only this time from Robert himself. Very disingenuous. What do you expect a coach to do if the player is playing these type games?

When I put that i quotes, I wasn't ACTUALLY quoting Gruden. I was alluding to reports like this:

Report: Jay Gruden is done with Robert Griffin III - CBSSports.com

Stuff like that was going on all season long. It was a sloppy mess. I wasn't even looking for Redskins news last season and I could hear it.

Fast forward to last month, Gruden says Robert is the #1 guy. Come on people, coach would not say that if what you all say is remotely true, that Gruden can't work with this guy. You better believe that Gruden is not mincing words about Robert during this important time for McLovin to game plan a roster. He must know how each player fits in to the big long term picture. I fully believe that Gruden will speak the truth to him, after all, its in the Redskins best interests (and Jay's) to do so.

We'll see. I don't know what Gruden wants or doesn't at this point. It seems to change week to week, or someone changes it for him. Who knows?

You are right about one thing. This is not about Griffin, or Gruden, its about the Redskins and what's best for this franchise now that the staff and front office has been overhauled. What's best for the team usually comes with collateral damage. Most of the times we like to say the coach and QB are connected at the hip and in the event of failure both go. I don't know that that is the case this time, I don't think Gruden wants to go down with Griffin. And furthermore, I don't think the whole 2015 season is going to have to play out for us to know. We start out slow once again like we always do, and I can assure you Griffin will be pulled. It won't take the whole season, I give it the first three games before we get an inkling what is about to happen. The debacle will be in play if we are 1-3 or 0-3 to start.

I'm guessing Griffin's leash will be extremely short this year. And I'm not even saying it shouldn't be.

All I'm saying is that The Redskins effed this up badly and there's no excuse for it. Griffin should be further along than he is and it's not all his fault. I hope if and when Griffin does get the axe that Gruden (or whomever is telling Gruden what to do) handles the next guy a lot better.

 

[McD5]

Where did the whole "Gruden needs to run different plays that cater to RG3's skills" come from? The QB can't execute the most basic of plays, so it must be the coach?

From Cooley:

“What we are going to do is we are going to give incomplete to the entire offense,” Cooley said. “Because I don’t know how to grade them….I can’t grade the pass game. Our quarterback does not allow a proper grading of the pass game, because there was something I’ve never seen go on on a football field before."

"I made a star, and said some of this would make a high school coach mad. Some of this is really easy stuff.”

These guys are going to really struggle with the idea of how are we going to block for this guy? I don’t know how to block for this guy. He’s going to make us look bad. Because he’s setting up at nine yards, and I’m giving up a sack, but my entire career has been based on the idea that an edge set at nine yards is good enough for a quarterback to step up and throw the ball. He will not.”

“If I’m Sean McVay and Jay Gruden right now — no joke, if I’m them right now — I’m sitting in an office on a Tuesday, scratching my head and saying I don’t know what we can put in. We’re really struggling to execute and get the ball in the right direction on easy plays. Like, EASY plays. So I don’t know what we install.

 

[MikeSr619]

Who is Cooley? He's never won anything and has never coached a damn thing. If we're talking pottery of frat boy antics he's the guy I go to. But we're talking coaching.

 

[fansince62]

And that proves what?

I suppose this needs to be drawn out: there are two kinds of people in the world...those who get the most out of people...and those who **** on them and move on.

we each hold our own pov on where the p[layers in this little drama fall.

sidebar: the same result transpired regardless of who QB'd. draw your own conclusions.

 

[Om]

so...I will run by you what others toss at me...and also note a contradiction:

1) How do you know Griffin's mindset and what he will/won't cooperate with?

2) We do know after 2012 there were dueling banjos in the media over statements from the Griffin camp that he wanted to run less and adapt more to conventional pocket passing techniques. that doesn't fit the meme.

per Mike's post...I think he has a valid point vis not enough time. Griffin does have issues anticipating - no doubt in my mind. but, were I in his shoes, and in synch with just about every QB we have had since 1992 - these QBs get gunshy after repeatedly getting pounded in the pocket. this isn't something that started with Griffin. there have been some lulls (e.g., Thomas o-line years), but overall it's been open season on Skins QBs.

1) Same as you or anyone else--distilling the information available. Hopefully objectively and without agenda.

2) No idea what this means.

OM...as a thought experiment....do you think there is zero probability a coach like Chip Kelley could not evolve an offense and groom Griffin to be a successful QB? because I have heard a lot of analysts say he could. aside from what Henry has stated, which I agree with, the other factor in all of this is that, by all appearances, Gruden decided very early on it was going to be his way or no way. he was not going to adapt his offense - in short, he tacitly decide he was more than ok to let the circus we observed last season play out its logic.

There is zero probability of few things mankind has yet been able to conceive. So ... no.

The rest is your conjecture. And not, in my opinion, objective or without agenda.

 

[Om]

So here's a thought ... imagine what this place might be like if we DO draft Mariota?

We're going to need a bigger boat.

 

[Shi no Tenshi]

Where did the whole "Gruden needs to run different plays that cater to RG3's skills" come from? The QB can't execute the most basic of plays, so it must be the coach?

From Cooley:

“What we are going to do is we are going to give incomplete to the entire offense,” Cooley said. “Because I don’t know how to grade them….I can’t grade the pass game. Our quarterback does not allow a proper grading of the pass game, because there was something I’ve never seen go on on a football field before."

"I made a star, and said some of this would make a high school coach mad. Some of this is really easy stuff.”

These guys are going to really struggle with the idea of how are we going to block for this guy? I don’t know how to block for this guy. He’s going to make us look bad. Because he’s setting up at nine yards, and I’m giving up a sack, but my entire career has been based on the idea that an edge set at nine yards is good enough for a quarterback to step up and throw the ball. He will not.”

“If I’m Sean McVay and Jay Gruden right now — no joke, if I’m them right now — I’m sitting in an office on a Tuesday, scratching my head and saying I don’t know what we can put in. We’re really struggling to execute and get the ball in the right direction on easy plays. Like, EASY plays. So I don’t know what we install.

You know as well as anybody that context is important to Cooley's comments there. That diatribe was in direct response to Griffin's comments that week. You have cherry picked those quotes completely out of context, and that does not help your argument, it harms it.

I know you have better material to pull from than that

 

[MikeSr619]

Honestly, if we draft the same style qb as Griffin but don't overhaul our line we are going to be the very definition of insanity.

Doing the same thing over and over yet expecting a different result.

 

[fansince62]

well...that is a state we all occupy.

I fundamentally agree with Henry - this organization has trashed yet another player from the moment Shanahan left him on the field when everyone else knew he was done for the day...acknowledging the player had a role in it. since then...the franchise circus has done the rest.

and, yes, I believe Griffin has the smarts and talent that he can become a bona fide pocket passer - perhaps not in the three weeks Gruden expects - but successfully nonetheless. and, yes, I think Chip Kelley would figure out a way to get it done. he seems more creative and flexible to me.

 

[McD5]

Fan, was Gibbs 2 a poor coach because Jason Campbell never became more than average?

Did Shanahan hold John Beck back from the hall of fame?

Did Beck fail because he was never Shanahan's guy, or because Shanahan didn't call the right plays for him?

And no, the same result didn't transpire with the other QBs. Nothing remotely close to some of the comments you see above in my previous post.

 

[Henry]

I think some of you are under the impression that I'm lobbying for Griffin or something. I'm not. I saw part of that Tampa game and I think I even said afterwards he looked broken. He is broken. Personally I think he's done.

But where did "cater to Griffin" come from? Again, from the fact that he did produce at one time in a different scheme. If he can't even run the most basic plays of the current one, it might be a good idea to not run it until he can. Or just be done with the guy.