PFT: Washington may be in the Mariota business

[McD5]

Is that the same Chip Kelly who just traded a bit more than a 3rd round pick for Sam Bradford?

Yes. The same Chip Kelly that just dumped a 27 TD, 2 INT in 2013 Nick Foles without hesitation.

 

[Henry]

I think I get it now. For some posters, its all Gruden's fault that Griffin can't play the position. 2012 doesn't validate Griffin as a bonified QB. Skins were 3-6 before the streak, hardly worthy of ROY performance. Funny how Griffin apologists have revisionist history.

Seriously? Revisionism?

... seriously?

During that particular nine-game stretch Griffin won Rookie of the Week four times. We had a top five offense during that stretch. When you're losing games 28-31 and 31-38 while your QB scores 5 TDs, it's not QBs fault. Griffin played at an extremely high level all season long. We were losing because our defense was terrible. If there's any revisionism going on, it's not on the end of those who rightly recognize Griffin had an amazing rookie season.

Robert himself said at the end of 2012 that Alfred was the MVP. Fact....Gruden doesn't run a Shanahan scheme offense, Griffin can't run a Gruden based scheme offense. Not Gruden's fault, not Griffin's. One has free agency to look toward, the other a new roster. That's the way football go.

If Gruden was brought in because he suggested he could put an offense together that Griffin could run then, yes, Gruden gets a nice big share of the blame here. He saw Griffin, a guy one year removed from the aforementioned and objectively supported Rookie of the Year season, and in all of one training camp and a few games said "screw it. I can't work with this guy." Whatever Griffin's shortcomings, and I know he has them, such a quick unwillingness or inability to adapt to the supposed centerpiece of our offense is not an encouraging sign. This isn't really about Griffin. In my opinion he's most likely done here. This is about Gruden, who I'd be more concerned about since he's likely not done here.

Now I wasn't in the room when Gruden was interviewed. Maybe he said "Dan, I don't like Griffin and he has to prove to me he's awesome or I'm cutting his ass." Or maybe he said "Dan, I am going into the season with an open competition at QB. I don't know Griffin and I don't care what he did when he was healthy." Hell, maybe he said "Dan, I know Griffin won Rookie of the Year but he secretly sucks so don't expect him to get a lot of slack from me."

But I'm guessing he didn't say that. And my impression is his impatience and his penchant for making short-term, reactionary decisions ... in a very public and sloppy manner I might add ... is going to be a problem going forward, regardless of who the Redskins' QB eventually turns out to be.

 

[Boone]

I love you Boone, but I hate that argument. So if the guy sucks, we should keep him here for consistency's sake? Blah. Frankly, I'd rather start over sooner to get a jumpbon the situation. Just as I've said this off season if Gruden knows Griffin isn't the answer, trade him or release him. Why bring the drama back?

You may hate it - but it doesn't mean I'm not 100% right. How many times do we 'start over'? There is no crystal ball that allows the front office to know, with certainty, that ANY head coach will succeed here, and certainly not immediately. How many of the best head coaches EVER had very shaky starts in the NFL? A lot of them. I agree with you on Griffin, but it's not Gruden's call whether they send Griffin packing. They may have weighed all the factors and decided that it's prudent to give him that final year to shit or get off the pot. It's also possible Gruden would like to ship him but McLovin has said 'no, we're going to give it one more year'. I don't know and you don't know.

I think a person can become a better football coach through study, lots of work, exposure to great coaches, etc. Leadership is a bit trickier to me. Gruden possesed a startling lack of leadership, and I'm not sure how to fix that. As Al said, he's not good at getting the best from those around him and he isn't good at building towards a common goal.

You and Al don't know that. A HOF coach couldn't get decent play out of this squad the year before. We know this has not been a team gushing with talent. A harsh critic of Gruden (and I have been one) would say 'he communicated poorly last year'. That critic might say 'the playcalling was questionable', 'he didn't use his strengths to the teams advantage (giving up on the running game)', 'the team was undisciplined and mistake-prone', etc...I would point out that all of those things might easily be explained as rookie head coach growing pains.

Or at least he wasn't last year. He could turn it around, but I don't think he will. The evidence suggests we made a bad choice. Let's face it, we on this board have rightly skewered many of the other decisions Bruce Allen has made, not sure why this one is any better.

He could turn into the most successful head coach we've ever had - but writing him off after a shaky first season, man, I just don't understand that. Jay Gruden didn't create the effing mess that this franchise has been - it's not his fault that we are where we are. He could've done a number of things better. But to extrapolate from that that he can't and won't. I view that as unfair expression of fan frustrations. Final comment I'll make - other than Griffin's typical passive-aggressive 'who me?' veiled and probably self-serving comments to the media, name a player who has voiced concern over Coach Gruden, indicated he doesn't know what he's doing, or otherwise tried to undermine him, criticize him, or communicate in any way that he's not going to be a good head coach? We don't see, hear, or have any real idea what is going on in the locker room, on the practice fields, or elsewhere within this team. I personally think if Gruden were an incompetent head coach, vs. one who is adjusting to the role, we would be hearing a lot of those things from the people who actually know whats going on. I don't recall hearing any of that.

 

[SNF]

Yes. The same Chip Kelly that just dumped a 27 TD, 2 INT in 2013 Nick Foles without hesitation.

For Sam Bradford

 

[MikeSr619]

Bradford has had 2 acl surgeries...he should be automatically put on the bad qb list

 

[fansince62]

You may hate it - but it doesn't mean I'm not 100% right. How many times do we 'start over'? There is no crystal ball that allows the front office to know, with certainty, that ANY head coach will succeed here, and certainly not immediately. How many of the best head coaches EVER had very shaky starts in the NFL? A lot of them. I agree with you on Griffin, but it's not Gruden's call whether they send Griffin packing. They may have weighed all the factors and decided that it's prudent to give him that final year to shit or get off the pot. It's also possible Gruden would like to ship him but McLovin has said 'no, we're going to give it one more year'. I don't know and you don't know.



You and Al don't know that. A HOF coach couldn't get decent play out of this squad the year before. We know this has not been a team gushing with talent. A harsh critic of Gruden (and I have been one) would say 'he communicated poorly last year'. That critic might say 'the playcalling was questionable', 'he didn't use his strengths to the teams advantage (giving up on the running game)', 'the team was undisciplined and mistake-prone', etc...I would point out that all of those things might easily be explained as rookie head coach growing pains.



He could turn into the most successful head coach we've ever had - but writing him off after a shaky first season, man, I just don't understand that. Jay Gruden didn't create the effing mess that this franchise has been - it's not his fault that we are where we are. He could've done a number of things better. But to extrapolate from that that he can't and won't. I view that as unfair expression of fan frustrations. Final comment I'll make - other than Griffin's typical passive-aggressive 'who me?' veiled and probably self-serving comments to the media, name a player who has voiced concern over Coach Gruden, indicated he doesn't know what he's doing, or otherwise tried to undermine him, criticize him, or communicate in any way that he's not going to be a good head coach? We don't see, hear, or have any real idea what is going on in the locker room, on the practice fields, or elsewhere within this team. I personally think if Gruden were an incompetent head coach, vs. one who is adjusting to the role, we would be hearing a lot of those things from the people who actually know whats going on. I don't recall hearing any of that.

Boone...you're right if one wants to withhold judgment pending more on field play - that is a viable approach.

what we do have is the visible evidence - i.e., documented play - on the field last year that poor coaching and bad decision-making were major contributing factors to the final record. talent is one thing. accountability rests with the coaching staff - specifically the HC. that is an inescapable fact of life.

 

[fansince62]

Bradford has had 2 acl surgeries...he should be automatically put on the bad qb list

yea...but he hasn't had an ankle injury. and like other QBs....he didn't incur those injuries fighting on the field for his team: they all happened in brain-dead stunts that had nothing to do with winning football games and risking his body for his team. but, remember, Bradford doesn't tweet like some QBs do...so the decision Kelley made is grounded in wisdom.

crack me up!!!

Chip Kelley is an idiot who can't coach winning teams....that has to be it!

 

[Boone]

what we do have is the visible evidence - i.e., documented play - on the field last year that poor coaching and bad decision-making were major contributing factors to the final record.

Actually, I won't even concede this point. It's your perception that 'poor coaching and bad decision-making were major contributing factors to the final record'. It may or may not be a fact.

It's just as (if not more) likely that a lack of quality quarterback play, injuries, horrible defensive coaching, and a generally sub-par roster were the primary factors.

Of course Gruden is 'accountable'. But there's a reason NFL coaches get 3-5 year contracts. It takes time to transition a losing team to a more successful one. It takes time.

 

[Bulldog]

How long are people going to hang their hat on what Griffin did in 2012?

A number of players in the NFL have a single season that sets team marks and unfortunately due to injury, poor habits or other circumstances never comes close to repeating that performance.

Anyone think Gordon is going to catch 1,400 yards in passes again?

Think Nick Foles, despite being in my opinion a solid quarterback, is again going to throw 7 tds in a game or go for 27 tds and only 2 picks in a season?

At some point you have to admit when guys do something they likely will not match again.

 

[MikeSr619]

Bro, you bring up the 80s daily. I kind of think you should have a little more leeway than 3 years if you want to keep talking beathard lol

 

[Henry]

How long are people going to hang their hat on what Griffin did in 2012?

A number of players in the NFL have a single season that sets team marks and unfortunately due to injury, poor habits or other circumstances never comes close to repeating that performance.

Anyone think Gordon is going to catch 1,400 yards in passes again?

Think Nick Foles, despite being in my opinion a solid quarterback, is again going to throw 7 tds in a game or go for 27 tds and only 2 picks in a season?

At some point you have to admit when guys do something they likely will not match again.

That's all just ducky.

I would like to think, however, that points on Griffin and Gruden can be solidly made without making outlandish comments such as Griffin only got playing time because he was a high pick, or that he wasn't REALLY Rookie of the Year because we lost some games in 2012.

The simple fact is that Griffin easily had the single best year any Redskin QB has had in the past 15 years. Maybe the past 20 years, and an argument could be made for the past 30 years. It had nothing to do with where he was drafted, nothing to do with our record over the first nine games of that season, or anything other than his play was simply phenomenal. Period.

And some of you seem to be SO anxious to move on from him that you'll make **** up just to pretend it didn't happen.

Look, if it's time to move on from Griffin then so be it. But if that's the case make it in this reality, the one where Griffin has actually produced as an NFL quarterback as recently as two years ago. Maybe he never will again. I tend to think that's the case. The Redskins have collectively destroyed him beyond repair, in my opinion. But don't pretend he was never any good. Because he was. We all saw it. It wasn't that long ago.

 

[Om]

Henry, there are questions I have based on what I think your take is on Robert:

1) how does his alleged unwillingness to reprise his 2012 role as a real read-option running threat fit it?

2) how do the injuries and their clear impact on his ability to "make plays" with his legs fit it?

3) are you concerned with his apparent inability and/or unwillingness through 2014 to progress from the single-read success he had success with in 2012, to the more challenging passing aspects required of a prospective long-time starter in this league?

Not looking for a dissertation, obviously, but I'm not sure I'm clear on your position about Robert heading into 2015 in terms of whether or not he can be or even should be the same guy he was in 2012? Or even if would be realistic to hope for that, given the evolution defenses have already made in dealing with Kyle Shanahan's read-option offense Robert took the league by storm with then?

 

[Om]

Since we're "going there" on Robert ... just saw this from Tandler today. Pretty much mirrors exactly what I've been thinking and saying.

Need to Know: What would a good 2015 for Redskins? RG3 look like? | Rich Tandler's Real Redskins

Let’s look at this in terms of the middle ground. To some Griffin doubters nothing short of a combination of and RG3 2012 and a vintage Tom Brady type of performance would remove their misgivings. All he has to do is line up properly behind center and complete a pass every once in a while and he’ll be fine in the eyes of the more loyal Griffin fans.

But to most reasonable people, a group that includes Jay Gruden and Scot McCloughan, Griffin has to show substantial progress as a pocket passer. That doesn’t mean he can’t run and roll out and do the occasional read option. But he does need to be able to drop back and throw a pass before the receiver is out of his break and trust that he will be there to catch the pass. At no point can Griffin run out of bounds six yards behind the line of scrimmage before throwing the ball away. If he is looking at his first read that receiver is open he needs to pull the trigger on the pass or, if not, be successful in finding an alternative.

And Griffin doesn’t have time to waste in getting better. This can’t wait until November. He has to hit receivers coming out of their breaks in OTAs. If we’re at training camp and we see him hold onto the ball and pump and hesitate and scramble around, he’s in trouble. If we’re seeing that, Griffin might not make it to the regular season as the starter.

Don’t get me wrong; he doesn’t have to master pocket passing right away. But he does have to show some solid signs of progress

In short, Griffin needs to be competent. Last year he was not, at least not often enough to remove doubts.

It’s up to him. If he doesn’t get it done he has nobody to blame but himself.

 

[MikeSr619]

I agree with all that. My only concern is that the OL will still suck and his 3 seconds to read a defense will get him blasted.

He has to get better no doubt but so does the line. They're extremely tied together

 

[Henry]

Henry, there are questions I have based on what I think your take is on Robert:

1) how does his alleged unwillingness to reprise his 2012 role as a real read-option running threat fit it?

I think it's alleged. I think the Redskins have no problem throwing anyone and everyone under the bus as it suits them. I think this tactic, so far, particularly applies to our Head Coach at the moment. As well as the previous Head Coach. I think Griffin may very well be a pain in the tush to work with, but I am not privy to anything other than rumor to substantiate that. Rumor generated by the aforementioned under-bus-throwing-team.

I also think that Russell Wilson runs the read option just fine. He almost won back-to-back superbowls with it, and I see no indication that the league has caught up with it. I think given Wilson's success that it should be entirely possible to run a version of the read option that doesn't involve Griffin running 12 times a game, or going out for passes. I know nothing about what Gruden and Griffin talk about when no one else is listening, but I'd like to think a Head Coach worth his salt could find a some sort of happy medium with a disgruntled QB who has shown he can produce in this league. As opposed to just throwing up his hands and saying '**** it.'

2) how do the injuries and their clear impact on his ability to "make plays" with his legs fit it?

As above, I would like to think a professional level coach and QB can find a place in the middle where injuries could be mitigated.

3) are you concerned with his apparent inability and/or unwillingness through 2014 to progress from the single-read success he had success with in 2012, to the more challenging passing aspects required of a prospective long-time starter in this league?

Not looking for a dissertation, obviously, but I'm not sure I'm clear on your position about Robert heading into 2015 in terms of whether or not he can be or even should be the same guy he was in 2012? Or even if would be realistic to hope for that, given the evolution defenses have already made in dealing with Kyle Shanahan's read-option offense Robert took the league by storm with then?

Sometimes I think I'm taking crazy pills. This is what I said three years ago when we drafted Cousins. Remember that glorious thread?

Maybe some of you have missed the past 40 years but I've seen this fanbase chew up and spit out plenty of QBs. The leash around here is VERY short. And make no mistake, the Cousins pick makes Griffin's leash shorter. It does. Offseason love-fests don't last long into the regular season. What seems unimaginable now can be very real after a few ugly losses.

I think what I'm saying, if I'm saying anything, is that Griffin WILL have a stretch of bad play. I think unless he really is the Greatest QB Of The Modern Era he's going to look like crap for long stretches this year. I know this may surprise some, but he may need a year to develop before he becomes the amazing phenom we all expect.

Griffin most likely IS over-hyped and won't look like superman this year. He most likely ISN'T who most fans think he is right now. "Who know, maybe Cousins is" ... we could very well hear that. A lot. Hell, you just said it. And I don't think that's something we should be thinking about this year. Not this year.

Now, because of injury and/or a some changes in the offensive scheme those stretches of bad play to which I referred were delayed a year. But here we are.

I'd like to think I'm some sort of Amazing Kreskin, but it's not that complicated. The leash on young QBs is insanely short these days.

What do I expect from Griffin? Honestly, I have no clue. This team has so battered him physically and psychologically that he may now just be a shell of the player he once was. I suspect you'll find that out relatively soon this next season. I do find it humorous, however, that the blame for his struggles is somehow placed all at his own feet. As if there's never been a 22 year-old prima donna in this league before. I swear, if the Redskins can't figure out how to handle a young Diva without crushing him into a fine paste, they ain't going anywhere for a LONG time.

 

[Om]

I don't know, Henry. The notion that Robert has woefully under-performed in terms of showing progress reading defenses and pulling the trigger effectively comes from a whole lot of sources beyond the team. His lack of pocket awareness (in stark contrast to the aforementioned Wilson), lack of recognition of defenses and route adjustments, timing ... it hasn't been just Mike, Jay and the Redskins talking. It's been analysts from all over the place. It's been a whole raft of objective observers doing very specific film breakdowns.

At some point, doesn't all that smoke probably mean fire?

Even I, one of RG3's biggest supporters, came to recognize there was some serious disconnect between all his physical gifts, and his looking absolutely and utterly lost in the pocket so often the last 2 years.

I'm not exonerating the team--they've made enough mistakes for a lifetime the past couple of decades. And maybe they could have tried even harder to teach Robert how to drop the right amount of steps ... and feel the pass rush and move effectively ... and pull the trigger on time to the right man ... but to assume they didn't beat their heads against the wall to do just that to me is kinda of a crazy pills deal too. Because if they hadn't, it would mean they didn't want him to succeed on some level ... which means we then have to ask ... why?

So they could fail with him?

Anyway. I think Tandler nailed it. All we need in 2015 to see is progress. We'll know quite soon.

 

[Henry]

Kid may very well suck in the pocket. That's not what I'm talking about.

If he sucks in the pocket, scheme around that until he doesn't. If he disagrees, sit him until he agrees, and tell the world he's still too hurt to play. Or here's a crazy idea: Let him take his lumps. The team was FOUR AND TWELVE and from what I could tell it wasn't even close to all Griffin's fault. Think we couldn't afford to let Griffin learn on the job in a throwaway season considering it was his first season in this offense?

What this team and this coach have done has ****ed this situation up beyond all recognition. Personally, I don't see it being salvaged. I hope McCoy's neck feels better.

 

[Om]

I'm not sure how you "scheme around" an NFL QB who can't handle the basics of a passing game. Particularly if he can't, or won't, run the ball effectively enough to make that the foundation of the offense.

I don't think his reticence to run the read-option is alleged, either, so I guess maybe that's where aren't seeing the same things.

I see a guy who thrived when the read-option was new, he was on fire physically, and what he was asked to do in the passing game was very, very basic. But when a combination of his health, (alleged) reticence to run the ball and defensive adjustments limited that effectiveness, and he was asked to also develop his skills as a pocket passer ... he didn't or couldn't. I mean, really, and beyond any shadow of doubt, didn't or couldn't. Beyond asking the rest of the team to "take their lumps" while zigging to his zagnut.

End of the day I don't believe the bulk of the fault for that is/was on the coaching staff. As with most things though, this one is unlikely a simple either/or ... still, if I had to put my own money on which side of the equation earned the preponderance of the blame, it's on Robert.

Good news is he has a chance to utterly and completely change a whole lot of minds this year. I hope like hell his eyes hold up from all the studying he best be doing.

 

[Boone]

There is another factor in Griffin's lack of success since 2012 that we often give too little attention to - and that's that he's spent half that period injured or coming off major injury. And the impact of that isn't just about being limited when he does return (although that was almost certainly the case for most of the 2013 season, and at the end of the 2014 season). The ACL tear and the ankle injury both limited his practice/prep time in major ways. The ACL robbed Griffin of an entire off season and pre-season of prep for the regular season. I believe having to devote that entire period to rehabbing for what was in retrospect an ill-advised and hurried return set Griffin back a year or more in his development. On top of that, he was never right that year, I don't care what anyone says. He couldn't plant fully on that leg, couldn't put anything on his throws, and (I believe) he was skittish, distracted, and unsure he could count on the knee. Again, that was a setback.

I thought Griffin looked more like the 'old' Griffin at the start of 2014 until the ankle injury occurred. He looked more confident, was getting passes off more aggressively, and was even using his feet effectively until the ankle went. That play was emblematic of one of Griffin's ongoing problems, being unwilling to call a bad play a bad play and live to fight on another down. The ankle injury wasn't 'his fault', but it should not escape anyone that it occurred on a desperate sideline diving pass attempt where had he just headed out of bounds normally, we might not even be having this conversation. When Griffin came back (again, likely before he was fully healed) he looked exactly as one would expect a QB who hadn't played in 2 months to look.

I'm not sure anyone can reasonably assess whether Griffin can transition to a more traditional role and become an effective QB - it would require him to be healthy for a full season, and we just haven't had that opportunity.

 

[Henry]

Again Mark, as I said three years ago if the Redskins drafted a QB and expected him to be Superman out of the gate that's on the Redskins. If we, as fans, expected him to be Superman that's on us.

As I said three years ago, the odds were that the kid would struggle. And it would look ugly. And we'd have hordes of fans screaming for his replacement.

And we'd need to be patient.

What I kept hearing in response was "Griffin isn't going to struggle. And if he does, the Redskins paid such a huge price they'd have no choice but to be patient."

Well ok. I'm not seeing patience. The Redskins didn't get halfway through one season with Gruden before he was trashing the kid, in a most public fashion.

Did the Redskins NOT know what they were getting when they spent four draft picks on Griffin? Did Gruden not know what he was getting when he signed on the dotted line? Did the Redskins not tell him?

What. The Hell. Is going on over there?

Seriously?