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PFT: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess

i argue it because i have (in my opinion) a firm grasp of nfl contracts, and how taking money spread out over years in caps season and dropping them into an uncapped year is not in any way the same as not meeting (what would be) the cap floor for one year.

it's my opinion. i'm not claiming to be an expert. i just think you're wrong in saying the bucs did the same thing. they're not even close in my opinion.

The Bucs wanted to spend more on free agents, but were limited by the physical amount of cash they had.

The Redskins wanted to spend more on free agents, but were limited by the amount of money they could spend.

Same problem, different reasons for it, and different solutions. The Salary "Cap" is a bit of a joke anyway, since the majority of teams never even approach it - which is the reason they have a salary floor in the first place.
 
So you honestly believe that the long term advantages the bucs got from not hitting the floor were the same as the advantages the redskins got by clearing up future cap space?

My opinion is that they're not even close.
 
So you honestly believe that the long term advantages the bucs got from not hitting the floor were the same as the advantages the redskins got by clearing up future cap space?

My opinion is that they're not even close.


In terms of the salary cap? No. But only because the Bucs were never even close to the salary cap in previous years. In terms of the amount of money they could spend? Most definitely.
 
How do you figure this? Not saying we didn't have some seriously bad business decisions under Vinny but how do you figure we were going to be haunted for 4-5 years?
well the contract with haynesworth was a 7 year contract made in 2009
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3939011

so it'd be good through 2016 (which is 4 years from now)

at the same time hall's contract was a 6 year deal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeAngelo_Hall#Washington_Redskins

i guess i should have said 3-4. some of that money was bonus money that we could get out of by cutting them, but some of it was guaranteed.
 
In terms of the salary cap? No. But only because the Bucs were never even close to the salary cap in previous years. In terms of the amount of money they could spend? Most definitely.

to be honest i had no idea they were 40+ million under the floor until i just looked it up.

it doesn't, at first, change my opinion only because i think having to spend 40 million in one year is a detriment, not an advantage; they're going to have to seriously overpay some players to cover that. there just aren't enough quality free agencies to fill that gap, given roster limits.

but i'll have to think about it, i may change my opinion :)
 
well the contract with haynesworth was a 7 year contract made in 2009
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3939011

so it'd be good through 2016 (which is 4 years from now)

at the same time hall's contract was a 6 year deal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeAngelo_Hall#Washington_Redskins

i guess i should have said 3-4. some of that money was bonus money that we could get out of by cutting them, but some of it was guaranteed.

But we could have cut ties with either player at anytime and accelerated the cap it to be over and done with in 2 years.
 
Fair point. I guess haynesworth would have been 1 more year of suffering for it, and hall would be 3-4 from the time of the move to restructure, unless we cut him right away.

I'm still not sold on the idea that bucs somehow benefited anywhere close to the way the redskins did. But it doesn't really matter, we're allowed to have different opinions. Thats wy we post on message boards and don't oversee NFL arbitration hearings :)

and i still don't think the redskins did anything wrong, or that the NFL is in the right, or that any of this has to do with what the NFL sees as 'competitive balance'. :)
 
But we could have cut ties with either player at anytime and accelerated the cap it to be over and done with in 2 years.
We have our winner folks!

Also, revenue sharing, who's spirit was also at play during the uncapped year, was meant for clubs to have equal amounts to SPEND ON PLAYERS!

Not put it in their ****ing pocket.

Their violating the "spirit" of the rules is EXACTLY what we're accused of.

So, you punish everyone, or no one. You don't single out division rivals.
 
...Also, revenue sharing, who's spirit was also at play during the uncapped year, was meant for clubs to have equal amounts to SPEND ON PLAYERS!

Not put it in their ****ing pocket..
Brilliant, that simple statement is the crux of the whole argument.
 
We have our winner folks!

Also, revenue sharing, who's spirit was also at play during the uncapped year, was meant for clubs to have equal amounts to SPEND ON PLAYERS!

Not put it in their ****ing pocket.

Their violating the "spirit" of the rules is EXACTLY what we're accused of.

So, you punish everyone, or no one. You don't single out division rivals.


this , and Lankys post are the most valid posts in this thread, we dont give them money to pocket it or to hold on to, if anything the players union should be freaking out at teams who didnt spend to the floor, BECAUSE THATS MONEY THATS SUPPOSED TO GO TO PLAYERS. TEAMS WHO DIDNT GET TO THE FLOOR EITHER POCKETED THAT MONEY OR THEY USED IT THIS YEAR TO GRAB FREE AGENTS a year later.
 
this , and Lankys post are the most valid posts in this thread, we dont give them money to pocket it or to hold on to, if anything the players union should be freaking out at teams who didnt spend to the floor, BECAUSE THATS MONEY THATS SUPPOSED TO GO TO PLAYERS. TEAMS WHO DIDNT GET TO THE FLOOR EITHER POCKETED THAT MONEY OR THEY USED IT THIS YEAR TO GRAB FREE AGENTS a year later.

Exactly, so what did these teams do with their equal revenue share
 
(Further thoughts, cross-posted on ES http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?363869-Espn-NFCEast-Blog-Giant-s-Mara-quot-Skins-got-off-lucky-quot-OP-Updated-w-follow-up-links&p=8919271&viewfull=1#post8919271)

But we don't know what's in the league's contract with each team. What if that contract gives the Commissioner (with or without a vote of all teams) authority to make adjustments to any team's cap in the interest of maintaining competitiveness? Then, Goodell just says "It's not a penalty, it's an adjustment. Your contract with the league says I can make adjustments." Just because it's unfair (particularly to fans) doesn't mean it's illegal.

I've been through the NFL Constitution and Bylaws, and I don't see anywhere that the Commissioner or Management Council Executive Committee has any authority to adjust salary cap--other than as a penalty under Article VIII for "conduct detrimental to the league" and for conduct "affecting the competitive aspects of the game." But that's a penalty for a violation of the rules, which the NFL has repeatedly stated has not been imposed. Setting aside antitrust/collusion issues and setting aside procedural irregularities about imposing a penalty under 8.13 and 8.14 (e.g., penalties can only be imposed after notice and a hearing, and I believe the penalty could only come about under 8.14 through the Management Council as a whole (each team without a conflict of interest) voting to increase the punishment beyond that the Commissioner is expressly entitled to impose under 8.13), the NFL would likely have the power to do this under the Constitution and Bylaws (presumably subject to some kind of reasonableness assessment by the System Arbitrator). Even if so, the potential antitrust claim would remain as a background issue (that might be foregrounded), and I'd think Burbank would properly assess whether this non-penalty "adjustment" is anywhere authorized in the Constitution and Bylaws, and if somehow it's an authorized power, whether it was exercised through proper procedures, and if exercised through proper procedures, whether it was (by a clear preponderance of the evidence) substantively reasonable.

Maybe there's something else in the Constitution and Bylaws or CBA, outside of the 8.13/8.14 penalty that would authorize the cap hit, but I haven't found it (and I haven't seen anyone else point to it), or maybe there's some kind of residual power in the Commissioner and/or Management Council. But I don't see it.

Also, if this is not a penalty, but is only to rectify competitive imbalance, there is no basis whatsoever for charging us the full $36 million (let alone losing draft choices); there is no way to justify precluding us from having wiped clean the amount of the cap hit for AH and DH that would have been absorbed in the 2010 league year if the renegotiations had not occurred/not been approved by the League (I believe something like $7.4 million of the $36 million). Moreover, there is no way to justify our being forced to absorb the $36m hit half this year and half next. Instead, at most we should be required to have those cap hits that would have been imposed if the renegotiations were not approved pro-rated into 2011 and future years (very roughly $7million per year for this year and the next three years). At absolute most, that would be sufficient to rectify any legitimate (non-punitive) competitive balance concerns; the far greater cap hit imposed on us is undeniably a penalty, and the NFL simply did not use the process necessary to impose a penalty, or even purport to impose a penalty.

Moreover, the 2011 CBA expressly states that the salary cap is to be the same for all clubs. (One could argue that this does not mean that it forecloses an adjustment to the cap as a penalty, but at least it suggests that altering the cap as a matter of course to reestablish perceived competitive balance is highly concerning.)

And while I'm ruminating, here are some further thoughts, some of which I've raised in the 80+ page thread. A) The argument that "the NFL approved the contracts so we win" is not very strong; B) there's a reason that no one has raised why it's actually a lot stronger than people realize, but C) it nonetheless is not terribly strong. As to A), the NFL approved the contracts in the uncapped 2010 year (in 2009?) because the contracts did not violate the CBA then in place; that's almost entirely distinct from the question whether the Skins' overall conduct in 2010 could be thought in 2012 to have undermined competitive balance and thus warrant an adjustment. In fact, however, B) the argument is stronger than I've seen it articulated by anyone b/c the Commissioner is entitled (under 8.14(A) of the 2011 CBA, and I'm virtually certain under the prior CBA) to disapprove player contracts not just if they violate the then-existing salary cap, but also if he finds them to be "in violation of or contrary to the NFL Constitution and Bylaws," or if the Commissioner believes the player or Club has "been guilty of an act or conduct which is or may be detrimental to the league...." In other words, the Commissioner did have the power in 2010 to reject AH's renegotiated contract if he believed it upset competitive balance and warranted a penalty. Nonetheless, C) the Commissioner had the power to do it--but I don't see terribly much force to the argument that because he had the powerr to find the conduct detrimental to the NFL in 2010, he forever lost the power to determine it be detrimental or competitive balance-altering at some other point (i.e., I doubt there's any reason to believe the law of the case precludes his later deciding to exercise a power he didn't earlier choose to exercise). Given B), there is something to the argument that the Commissioner's changing his mind two years later is fundamentally unfair. But--note that all of this language empowering the Commissioner to disapprove contracts is parallel to the language that expressly authorizes the Commissioner and Management Council to impose penalties (if they follow certain processes)--and that is not what they are claiming to have done here.

Also, in thinking about this further, there is strong reason to believe that the NFL would have been entirely within its rights to put rules into the 2011 CBA (if agreed to by the NFLPA) that would have imposed (non-penalty) cap consequences for teams that had wiped clean pending cap hits during the 2010 season (i.e., the Skins). No antitrust problem, because it's in the CBA, and no basis for our grousing (too loudly) because we did know there was the possibility that we wouldn't get away with dumping the cap space--wouldn't get away with it if the subsequent CBA imposed cap consequences, which it didn't. If the 2011 CBA had spelled out cap consequences, then, to be fair, there's a strong argument that that isn't the league colluding (unlawfully) in 2010 during an uncapped season outside the CBA, it's the league (lawfully) colluding in 2011.

But the 2011 CBA does not impose cap consequences for cap-dumping actions taken in 2010. Indeed, it expressly permits teams to have cut players or traded players during the 2010 league year and thereby to have accelerated/wiped clean their entire cap hit during 2010 (which is what we undoubtedly would have done with AH if we'd known that was our only way to get rid of his cap hit, rather than renegotiating). And the 2011 CBA sets forth the cap consequences for "preexisting contracts"--i.e., those entered into, or renegotiated, prior to the 2011 league year--and does not impose any cap consequences for preexisting contracts unless those contracts would impose salary cap consequences into 2011 and beyond under the salary cap terms of the prior CBA. AH's and DH's renegotiated/preexisting contracts do not impose salary cap consequences under the terms of the prior CBA.

Thus A) there's an airtight argument that the 2011 CBA expressly permits wiping entirely clean pending salary cap hits in 2010 through a slightly different mechanism (cutting/trading, as opposed to renegotiating), so it's very hard to see how there's such a disruption of competitive balance by renegotiating that taking the renegotiation route (and trading AH before he ever plays another down for us) warrants this huge consequence, and B) there's a strong (but not airtight) argument that the 2011 CBA does not authorize cap consequences for renegotiated contracts prior to the 2011 league year that don't impose salary cap consequences into 2011 and beyond under the rules of the prior CBA (especially folding in the fact that the 2011 CBA states that each team is to have the same salary cap space).

The question remains whether it's permissible for the NFL and NFLPA to get a do-over of the 2011 CBA, two years later, through informal channels, without a full vote, and with the NFL throwing in the leverage of moving cap space from 2014 and 2015 into this year as the price for the NFLPA signing off on the adjustments, and at the 11th hour before free agency, and very likely in conflict with the 2011 CBA, A) as a matter of antitrust law, and B) under the NFL Constitution and Bylaws, which is presumably what Burbank will be focused on.
 
Thanks for the effort romberjo!

So my question is this, since it is apparent this is going to the arbitrator, who employs the arbitrator? Do both sides pay his expenses/costs?

And when the arbitrator makes his decision, will there be any further action available or is part of the agreement for both sides to abide by the decision?
 
Good questions El. I also wonder what our compensation will be, should we win? Clearly, I would expect most if not all of the cap space to be replaced, but these actions have definitively hurt our ability to sign FAs this offseason, and I would think we should be entitled to something additional.

Romberjo, excellent work, thank you. Your point about spreading the cap hit and subsequent penalty over the length of the contract is something that has been bothering me, and I'm glad you addressed it. Thanks again, really nice read.
 
Romberjo, excellent work, thank you. Your point about spreading the cap hit and subsequent penalty over the length of the contract is something that has been bothering me, and I'm glad you addressed it. Thanks again, really nice read.

Me as well. It just feels like that part of the punishment was purely punitive - it wasn't about enforcing the "spirit" of the salary cap, it was about crippling the Redskins ability to sign Free Agents this year. I think if they had meted out the punishment the way romberjo described, there would have been a whole lot less of a fuss about it. But $18M a year (after first saying we could distribute it anyway we felt) is just a punch in the gut!
 
I think the NFL has known all along that this penalty wouldn't stick long term but would draw out long enough this year to screw us out of any significant shopping spree (hence the 11th hour announcement). By the time we do get this straightened out most if not all of the quality FA's will probably be off the market. It's the NFL's way of playing tit for tat with the whole competitive balance thing. We screw them over one year and they screw us over this year and we're even and back on a level playing field so to speak. It's rife with reasons for everyone to cry foul but I wouldn't put it past the NFL at all.
 
Romberjo, you are a lawyer and can read between these lines far better than me. I've gone through your post several times and it seems as if this came solely from the executive committee and not from the league office. They, along with Mara being the driving force, came up with this idea and ratified it.

It became "official" when the NFLPA accepted it. At that juncture, Commissioner Goodell had his hands tied and simply enforced this new rule - this is my interpretation (correct me if I'm wrong). It is now up to the arbitrator to determine if the committee is allowed to make and enforce such rules.
 
Thanks for the effort romberjo!

So my question is this, since it is apparent this is going to the arbitrator, who employs the arbitrator? Do both sides pay his expenses/costs?

And when the arbitrator makes his decision, will there be any further action available or is part of the agreement for both sides to abide by the decision?


The arbitrator's decisions is the final say at the NFL level. You can appeal it into US court and have a US Judge oversee the case. There's lots of speculation that neither the skins/boys nor the NFL want to go past the arbitrator though, for business reasons.
 
I had originally thought that perhaps the league would work with the Skins to reach an agreement BEFORE the arbitrators ruling. That, obviously, will not happen now that the rest of the teams voted to keep the ruling intact. With a unified front and feeling they were within their rights to impose the penalty, we have no choice but to wait on the ruling.

I have a question as to whether the league "warned" the teams not to dump cap in the uncapped year IN WRITING or if these were just verbal warnings. Would verbal warnings be legally enforceable? For that matter, would written warnings be enforceable?
 
Romberjo, . . . I've gone through your post several times and it seems as if this came solely from the executive committee and not from the league office. They, along with Mara being the driving force, came up with this idea and ratified it.

It became "official" when the NFLPA accepted it. At that juncture, Commissioner Goodell had his hands tied and simply enforced this new rule - this is my interpretation (correct me if I'm wrong). It is now up to the arbitrator to determine if the committee is allowed to make and enforce such rules.

Yes, that's basically my impression--but that's only from reading press (mostly involving rumors) about how it happened, not from any particular legal knowledge.

Also, minor point--there is a further step before it gets to court--under the CBA, there is an Appeals Panel that has (somewhat limited) power to review the decision of the System Arbitrator (Burbank).

And I don't think there's anything stopping the League/Management Council from negotiating a settlement, even after the owners' ratification vote--something that should have happened in the first place. They haven't hinted at any willingness to do so, though, which surprises me a bit (i.e., if I were they, I would propose a settlement that imposed the (non-penalty) cap hit we would have suffered if our AH and DH contracts had remained in place, without renegotiation).

Finally, I think the verbal versus written warnings is largely a red herring. The Skins never agreed to anything, so it's not an agreement/contract at all. The reason nothing was in writing in 2010 was in all likelihood that the NFL was looking to protect against an antitrust claim (by the NFLPA) of collusion (seeking to depress salaries during the uncapped year). The NFL's argument will be that they didn't collude in 2010 (when it would not be protected from antitrust challenge, given that it was not approved by the NFLPA in a CBA), indeed they approved those contracts in 2010. Instead, they're now colluding (lawfully) in 2012 (lawful under antitrust, because with the approval of the NFLPA). And the NFL's argument is that it's not unfair, in terms of competitive balance, to re-adjust the salary cap in 2012, based on conduct in 2010, because we were warned in 2010 that the NFL might well agree with the NFLPA down the road to impose such consequences.

My post a couple of pages ago explains why I think the NFL's potential argument expressed in the prior paragraph is entirely unconvincing. But that paragraph I think explains the NFL's argument better than they've explained it.
 

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