Oh what a difference a decent safety makes...

[McD5]

I mean, his slot on the 53 man roster, not "filling his shoes" at the safety position

We just signed Jerome Murphy. New thread created.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

if ANYTHING had to do with why a player is drafted Sean Taylor wouldnt have been picked up because of his combine performance, John Riggins wouldnt have been picked up because of his attitude, Doug Williams wouldnt have been taken out of Tampa Bay, and Santana Moss would have stayed in New Jersey.

you dont know jack...

are you for real?

Sean Taylor had ridiculous measurables and was a top end combine performer a man who is almost 230 pounds simply shouldnt have been able to move like ST. Riggins was a top rated back coming out of college who was known for his startling speed and quickness for his size, Doug Williams was a top rated QB who had a great combine and Santana Moss had a ridiculous 40 time. maybe you should try reading the argument before jumping in and looking stupid. nobody is saying combine times are the be all and end all, neither are pro day times, they just indicate speed or lack thereof.


Reed Doughty is on this team because he is a great special teams player who can fill in for short bursts at safety and he has heart, what he never had was speed, which was the argument that Jug and I were having. Jug Claims that Reed is fast and has "run step for step with the fastest receivers in the league" or some such burgundy goggled nonsense. it simply isnt true.

as for the "longest tenured player on the defence"? how many starts does he have during that tenure? he rarely got on the field last year.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

"If you were the football tactician, film analyst, or living room coach you think you are, you would have seen Reed MANY times in his career running step for step with the fastest receivers in the NFL (to include Terrell Owens, and quite a few others)"

This is what we are arguing, not his value to the team on specials, or his ability to spot fill at safety, I said Reed was slow and Jug decided to argue that fact, so I posted his combine numbers and jug posted his opinions. nuff said

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Because he didn't need to - his play on the field was enough. If all anyone had to go on was his combine, he would have been drafted top 10 for sure.

 

[Primus Porcus]

as for the "longest tenured player on the defence"? how many starts does he have during that tenure? he rarely got on the field last year.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/9759/reed-doughty


per espn he played in double digit games every year, except 08 when he was hurt... and last year he played in all 16 games, averaging almost 9 tackles a game.

As much as you like to toot your own horn about football knowledge, you must have a shortfall when it comes to the roots of the game. A safety should NEVER be in the position to make almost 9 tackles a game. That tells me that the linebackers, and CB's aren't doing their jobs. Safeties also shouldn't be relied upon in man to man coverage. Sean Taylor STRUGGLED in man to man coverage. He never was known for that. What he was good at was playing center field, and crashing the box. Reading a play and reacting. If safeties were good in man to man, they wouldn't be safeties, they'd be playing CB.

 

[Henry]

Reed is a solid backup. He's a mediocre starter who's solid in run support and pretty lousy in pass protection. It may be lack of speed or lack of vision or some other thing. But I don't think anyone can argue he's not a liability against the pass, and that makes him a mediocre starter at best. You can get away with putting him on the field if you've got guys around him but we have nobody.

I like Doughty. He's one of those guys who sticks around because he works hard and does whatever the hell the coach asks him to do. He'll never be a star but he continues to make himself valuable. Kinda like Rock Cartwright did for all those years. And for that reason it bugs me when people talk him down.

But he's not a great player. He's not good against the pass. If he were, our pass defense would be a lot better, as it suddenly was when Meriweather took the field. It's that simple.

 

[Jugband McGillicuddy]

I didn't say he was a great player. I like the guy a lot, but I'm a realist. What I said was that he is NOT slow. And I stand by that.

Again, being one of my favorite players since he started here, I watch him more closely than most do. That's not to say my opinion carries more weight; it doesn't. But Reed is one of those guys that if you're not looking for him, you're not going to see him. What he does, he does quietly. Well -- but quietly.

And I fully admitted that he has virtually no ball skills. When he's been beaten in coverage, it's been because the receiver makes the play on the ball, and Reed doesn't. I honestly don't remember anyone flat out smoking him step-for-step.

But whatever.

I'll give Ryman the last word, and apologize for the lengthy derailment and un-BGO-like posts I've made out of frustration.

 

[Henry]

I'm not picking any sides here, Jug. Just weighing in.

Like I said I think Doughty takes a lot of crap he doesn't deserve. He's a backup. I like him here as a backup. It's not his fault the starter was only healthy for one half of one game.

And at least he can play the run. There are plenty of backup safeties who can't even do that.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

As much as you like to toot your own horn about football knowledge, you must have a shortfall when it comes to the roots of the game. A safety should NEVER be in the position to make almost 9 tackles a game. That tells me that the linebackers, and CB's aren't doing their jobs. Safeties also shouldn't be relied upon in man to man coverage. Sean Taylor STRUGGLED in man to man coverage. He never was known for that. What he was good at was playing center field, and crashing the box. Reading a play and reacting. If safeties were good in man to man, they wouldn't be safeties, they'd be playing CB.

Sean Taylor STRUGGLED in man-to-man coverage? I think you can make your point without the hyperbole. Maybe it wasn't his strong-point, but to say he struggled at it is a little bit crazy. Now, maybe you're basing this on the fact that in the beginning he was apt to bite on a play-fake more often than not, but I don't think that speaks to his man-coverage skills.

There are things Sean Taylor struggled at, this is true. Sean Taylor struggled at choosing the right crowd to hang out with. Sean Taylor struggled at reigning in his emotions at time (e.g. forearm to TO's jaw), and ST struggled at going for the big hit instead of playing the ball sometimes.

But man-to-man coverage? This is a guy who ran down the field step-for-step with Randy Moss in his prime, then out-leapt him for the ball, knocking it away. That doesn't happen if you struggle in man-to-man coverage.

Also, just FYI - safeties are often relied upon to cover WRs down the field - its the basic premise of the cover-2 defense.

 

[Primus Porcus]

Sean Taylor STRUGGLED in man-to-man coverage? I think you can make your point without the hyperbole. Maybe it wasn't his strong-point, but to say he struggled at it is a little bit crazy. Now, maybe you're basing this on the fact that in the beginning he was apt to bite on a play-fake more often than not, but I don't think that speaks to his man-coverage skills.

There are things Sean Taylor struggled at, this is true. Sean Taylor struggled at choosing the right crowd to hang out with. Sean Taylor struggled at reigning in his emotions at time (e.g. forearm to TO's jaw), and ST struggled at going for the big hit instead of playing the ball sometimes.

But man-to-man coverage? This is a guy who ran down the field step-for-step with Randy Moss in his prime, then out-leapt him for the ball, knocking it away. That doesn't happen if you struggle in man-to-man coverage.

Also, just FYI - safeties are often relied upon to cover WRs down the field - its the basic premise of the cover-2 defense.

cover 2 is based on the safety defending a ZONE. The play he made against moss... he wasnt lined up on him from the Line of scrimmage. He was defending the deep ball and, as i said "playing center field." He had PHENOMINAL ball skills. He was able to read and react VERY well. Man to man coverage is not based on a player running with a receiver on a fly route.


Maybe what i'm trying to say here is being misunderstood. That was not a slight against Taylor. It was a reference that maybe the bashing of Reed is unjust because the popular bash on him was that he sucks in the pass defense, when the times he's been exposed, and you've seen him get beat, usually is because the CB miss an assignment, leaving Reed one on one, or trying to make up for a blown assignment. Sean Taylor rarely played man to man. If you watch his plays, there are VERY few times that he was the only person around the receiver... and that's what a safety's job is, and when he was the most effective. Read and react towards the ball. A safety shouldn't be man to man on a player because that's not what they are out there for.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Right, I think we are arguing terminology, and mostly agree on the concepts. In the cover-2 you're right, the safety has a zone, but if the CB releases the WR downfield, the safety may have to run with him and essentially play man-to-man at that point.

Also, ST was often asked to cover TEs man-to-man IIRC, and was good at it.

I think Jug is mostly right - Reid is usually in a position to make a play, however he's not quite athletic enough to do so. A glaring example is the game-winning TD to Andre Johnson a couple years ago; Reid was right there, covering him, but had zero chance to out-leap Andre. To be fair, most DBs do not, but still.

 

[Neophyte]

Also, ST was often asked to cover TEs man-to-man IIRC, and was good at it.

Shockey has been quoted as saying the toughest defender he ever faced in pass coverage was Taylor in daily practices at the University of Miami.

 

[Jugband McGillicuddy]

Also, Jason I was just ribbing you about Reed. I didnt mean a big **** storm to start up.

I'm sorry about that, bro.
Posted via BGO Mobile Device

You're good, Mike. Unless you ever apologize to me again for anything. Then we're gonna have a problem.

I have a problem being as civil as I should with topics that are important to me. It's caused me problems on other boards, and I'll do a better job of avoiding that here than I did last night. Well, I'll try to anyway.

 

[Primus Porcus]

You're good, Mike. Unless you ever apologize to me again for anything. Then we're gonna have a problem.

I have a problem being as civil as I should with topics that are important to me. It's caused me problems on other boards, and I'll do a better job of avoiding that here than I did last night. Well, I'll try to anyway.

and what would you want to go and do something like that for....

 

[Fear The Spear]

Jugband has his own special stopwatch, that is the only one to consistently gauge Doughty's 40-time consistently at 4.21.
Let's just say the calibration on his stopwatch is off by a full second

 

[Jugband McGillicuddy]

and what would you want to go and do something like that for....

Meh, IMO, BGO is hallowed ground. That's why I don't start threads much, and I try to use a far more respectable tone than I did last night. But I will say this. The sooner you ****ers realize that I'm always right, the easier that will become.

 

[Jugband McGillicuddy]

Jugband has his own special stopwatch, that is the only one to consistently gauge Doughty's 40-time consistently at 4.21.
Let's just say the calibration on his stopwatch is off by a full second

And you have a link to his 5.21 40?

 

[tshile]

But I will say this. The sooner you ****ers realize that I'm always right, the easier that will become.

Good luck. I've already tried this approach. Some hard headed people here

 

[Jugband McGillicuddy]

Good luck. I've already tried this approach. Some hard headed people here

Right?

BTW, what happens if you and I ever disagree? Would the universe survive?

 

[tshile]

I'm right by default.