Merril Hoge Finally Succumbs to Multiple Concussions, Goes Insane

[Lanky Livingston]

Lanky, Russell Wilson? Kaepernick? And while I like Matt Ryan, Flacco has accomplished more. And if we're being honest...Griffin has only proven he can be a better QB. He has yet to do what Joe Flacco has done.

It took Flacco 5 years, and many failures to get to this point. And as I pointed out, he's had some very good fortune this post season. Sometimes QBs just get lucky!

And yes - I believe the ceilings for Wilson & Griffin are exponentially higher than Flacco.

I am baffled by this...Joe Flacco was just the MVP of the Super Bowl and there is a suggestion that he is not as good as Russell Wilson?

Baffled? Up until this year Flacco was the biggest goat in Baltimore, lol. There are STILL questions about whether or not he is elite!

 

[Elephant]

It took Flacco 5 years, and many failures to get to this point. And as I pointed out, he's had some very good fortune this post season. Sometimes QBs just get lucky!

And yes - I believe the ceilings for Wilson & Griffin are exponentially higher than Flacco.

What you are calling failures, I would call success. 5 years in a row in the playoffs, 3 AFC Championships and a Super Bowl victory.

What about his misfortune last year with a dropped TD that would have sent him to the Super Bowl and an easy missed FG that would have at least tied the game and given them the opportunity to win in OT.

He took the Ravens to the AFC Championship game in his rookie season!

You say it took Flacco 5 years...it took Peyton 12. In that 5 years, Flacco has been to the AFC Championship game 3 times and won a Super Bowl. There are very few QB's in history who have accomplished this and you think Russell Wilson has a higher ceiling than that?

Lanky! Get your head out of the clouds!

Yes, Flacco has his issues that seem to be mostly in his psyche, but he has proven that he is a top 5 QB in this league.

 

[Elephant]

in that regards; better safety coverage and we aren't having the Flacco QB conversation at all. Peyton will still be considered better than him.

And if you had a vagina you'd be Goal!

 

[Elephant]

And if you had a vagina you'd be Goal!

oh man..can you imagine all the berry beers I could drink!!!

Too far Goal?

 

[Lanky Livingston]

What you are calling failures, I would call success. 5 years in a row in the playoffs, 3 AFC Championships and a Super Bowl victory.

He's also had one of the best teams in that span, so they did those things in spite of him, rather than because of him. Ravens have hands-down the best personnell guy in the NFL! That team is stacked.

What about his misfortune last year with a dropped TD that would have sent him to the Super Bowl and an easy missed FG that would have at least tied the game and given them the opportunity to win in OT.

He took the Ravens to the AFC Championship game in his rookie season!

You say it took Flacco 5 years...it took Peyton 12. In that 5 years, Flacco has been to the AFC Championship game 3 times and won a Super Bowl. There are very few QB's in history who have accomplished this and you think Russell Wilson has a higher ceiling than that?

Lanky! Get your head out of the clouds!

Yes, Flacco has his issues that seem to be mostly in his psyche, but he has proven that he is a top 5 QB in this league.

I mean, you're a Ravens fan, so there's no point in arguing with you. Those of us who see it a bit more rationally know Joe Flacco is not a top 5 QB in this league, and he's definitely NOT the best QB in this league. Neither was Trent Dilfer.

I noticed you conveniently didn't answer the goat comment! Up until this year, Flacco was the biggest goat in Baltimore!

 

[Goaldeje]

And if you had a vagina you'd be Goal!

Godddammit. I WAS on your side. Bastard. Flacco sucks!



If I had to pick Flacco or Wilson from here moving forward, I'd probably take Wilson, though it's closer than you think. Wilson had one nice year in an offense that no one had film on. If you think head coaches aren't instructing their D coordinators to dissect the pistol offense and find its weaknesses this off season, there's something wrong with you. I'd like to see one more year out of Wilson, though I do think he's a good QB.

(Griffin, by the way, negates this argument because I can see the kid's arm strength and intelligence. He will be able to switch back and forth between mulitple offenses if necessary)

If, however, I had to pick one QB to win one playoff/Super Bowl game for me, Flacco's up there pretty high. Above Peyton, probably above Brady. Granted I detest the Pats, so that may be clouding my thoughts here, but Flacco looked like the better QB in their head to head playoff matchup.

Listen, I am NOT a Ravens fan by any stretch. At best, I am indifferent. But I will admit Flacco is a hell of a QB WHEN IT COUNTS (playoffs). Go back and look at Peyton in the playoffs. It ain't pretty. To me, I'd rather miss the playoffs a couple of years because my QB is up and down, but know that every year we get in, we will have an excellent chance of winning it all, than know I will get to the playoffs every year, but have to have everything break right in order to win it all.

 

[Goaldeje]

And yet you all are arguing for Wilson?

 

[Goaldeje]

Fine. Got you and Lanky confused.

Your mom gives good head. Nice enough compliment?

 

[Elephant]

He's also had one of the best teams in that span, so they did those things in spite of him, rather than because of him. Ravens have hands-down the best personnell guy in the NFL! That team is stacked.

Are you going to sit here and tell me that the Saints weren't stacked, the Packers, especially the Pats and this year the Broncos? Come on Lanky. Those are the 4 best QB's other than Joe in the last 5 years.

The fact is, the Ravens talent wise in many positions are lacking compared to the earlier Ravens' teams that were consistently winning. And without Flacco, that dominant defense had not reached the AFC Championship since they'd won the Super Bowl.

He is not the best QB in the league. I will not claim that, but you would be hard pressed to convince me, and many others now that he's won the SB, that there are more than 5 QB's in the league better than he is. I would put him at #5.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Are you going to sit here and tell me that the Saints weren't stacked, the Packers, especially the Pats and this year the Broncos? Come on Lanky. Those are the 4 best QB's other than Joe in the last 5 years.

The Saints were without their HC, and their D was good for one year. No, they were not stacked. Their D has been atrocious for several years now; they've just been able to outscore people to win games.

Yes, the Broncos have gotten good the past couple years, because they were terrible for a couple years post-Shanahan, and they signed PEYTON MANNING. That's how it works, usually, its a cycle. But the Ravens don't cycle; they are competitive every single year, thanks to Newsome.

I feel like this is a pretty silly argument, because I'm not saying Flacco isn't a good QB. Top 10 is nothing to sneeze at. But you're kidding yourself if you think he's the 5th best QB in the NFL right now.

The fact is, the Ravens talent wise in many positions are lacking compared to the earlier Ravens' teams that were consistently winning. And without Flacco, that dominant defense had not reached the AFC Championship since they'd won the Super Bowl.

He is not the best QB in the league. I will not claim that, but you would be hard pressed to convince me, and many others now that he's won the SB, that there are more than 5 QB's in the league better than he is. I would put him at #5.

Well, then we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I would put Brady, both Mannings, Brees & Rodgers ahead of him for sure.

 

[tshile]

edit: ok, so the conversation has gone far past where I thought it was when I replied.

So instead i'll leave you with this.

my best quarterback is better than your best quarterback

 

[tshile]

that hurts mike :\

 

[Elephant]

Well, then we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I would put Brady, both Mannings, Brees & Rodgers ahead of him for sure.

I would put him above Eli... the other 4 are about right.

 

[tshile]

Not to add to the actual argument over Flacco, but more to the argument of what is an 'elite' qb...

I keep hearing people reference his super bowl mvp and how he played. He played great, in fact he played great throughout the playoffs.

But to me an elite QB is not one that plays well in one game - even if it's the super bowl. It's not one that plays well one season - even if it ends in a super bowl.

To me an elite QB is (to steal a line from Kevin Shenhan this afternoon) one where it's newsworthy if he has a bad game. It's news worthy if he doesn't carry the team. An elite QB performs at the highest levels all of the time, every year (with some growth at the start of his career and some decline as he reaches retirement, of course).

Using one game, or one season, to classify someone as an elite QB is why Eli Manning has a contract he'll never be able to live up to. Don't get me wrong, he's a better QB than I ever game him credit for, but he's not going to live up to that contract. Flacco wont live up to whatever the Ravens give him either.

 

[Elephant]

But t-...have you been paying attention to the argument?

In 5 seasons he has taken his team to the playoffs...3 times to the Conference Championship. He's made 3 Pro-Bowls (not much stock, but still...you were excited when they named RG3). He was a dropped pass, perfect pass I might add, away from the Super Bowl last year.

Each season he has gotten better in every category, which appears to be a criteria you use.

It all culminated with a Super Bowl victory where he was an MVP this year.

I am not ready to put him in Tom Brady or Peyton Manning class, but for those who say he is only top 10 and not top 5 are actually placing potential ahead of facts. Lanky said both Mannings...I would put Joe and Eli pretty close, but Joe has not gone from Super Bowl Champ to not even making the playoffs. We'll see how next year pans out.

For now, he has gotten progressively better since his rookie year where he took the Ravens to the AFC Championship losing to the eventual SB winners.

 

[tshile]

El -
No, not really. I've only paid attention to the time it was given on the radio while I was at lunch, and bits and pieces here and there as well as this thread.

I also don't follow the ravens. I saw their playoff games, and the game where they played the redskins, and that is it.

It's just my opinion on it - I look at a QB and make a decision based off what I've seen, both on the field and stats wise. I've found over the years that most people don't agree with me; sometimes I wind up being right, sometimes I wind up being wrong.

I thought McNabb was overrated. I think Cutler is a fraud. I think Brees is really over rated. I thought Eli was barely above mediocre - I've since come to conclusion I was wrong. I thought Philip Rivers was eventually going to be considered elite.

I just go back to how many QB's I'd take before Flacco without question and how many I'd consider taking over him if I were to start a team today to play for next year. He's too far down my first list and there's too many names on the second list for me to use the word Elite for him.

I may change that over the next 4-5 years, his career is just getting started he should be just entering his prime as a QB. But right now... I just can't :\

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Using one game, or one season, to classify someone as an elite QB is why Eli Manning has a contract he'll never be able to live up to. Don't get me wrong, he's a better QB than I ever game him credit for, but he's not going to live up to that contract. Flacco wont live up to whatever the Ravens give him either.

I keep hearing Redskins fans bash Eli Manning, and I'll admit, I bash him too for his goofy Manningface. But to say he hasn't carried the Giants over the past 5 years is pretty homeriffic, IMO. This season was the first season he didn't throw for over 4,000 yards in four seasons; he hasn't thrown for less than 3,200 yards except his rookie season. He threw for close to 5,000 yards last season. He's got two superbowl trophies in the past 5 years!

Let's be honest with ourselves here - if he had done the exact same things with the Redskins over the past 5 years, we'd be talking about him as a first-ballot hall of famer.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

But t-...have you been paying attention to the argument?

In 5 seasons he has taken his team to the playoffs...3 times to the Conference Championship. He's made 3 Pro-Bowls (not much stock, but still...you were excited when they named RG3). He was a dropped pass, perfect pass I might add, away from the Super Bowl last year.

Come on El, get real. Just like Redskins fans let their homerism get in the way of their evaluations of Eli Manning, you're letting your Ravens homerism cloud your judgment of Flacco. You keep throwing out this "5 years in the playoffs" line like Joe Flacco is the sole reason for it. Yes, offensive competence helped them make the playoffs for 5 years straight, but this team has been carried by its defense & its rushing game since 2000! Offensive competence also helped them win a superbowl in 2000 - are you going to say Trent Dilfer was a top 5 QB also?

He couldn't complete 60% of his passes this year, and that's with one of the better screen games in the NFL. He's barely a career 60% passer. As far as "each season he has gotten better in every category," he was only 57% in 20011, down from 62.6 in 2010, down from 63 in 2009. Bottom line is, he's not that accurate.

In the 5 seasons that Flacco has "carried" the Ravens, their defense has finished out of the top 10 in points allowed ONCE, finishing THIRD every year except for this one, when they lost many players to significant injuries. Same for yards allowed. This defense is a thing of beauty, a masterpiece created by the REAL reason for the Ravens success, Ozzie Newsome. To say Joe Flacco is the reason the Ravens have made the playoffs 5 years straight is like saying the guy who sold Van Gogh his canvas is the reason his paintings are so magnificent. Come on, man!

It all culminated with a Super Bowl victory where he was an MVP this year.

An honor he probably shouldn't have won. And I wouldn't put TOO much stock into it, Tom Brady was Super Bowl MVP throwing for 145 yards and 1 TD.

 

[tshile]

I keep hearing Redskins fans bash Eli Manning, and I'll admit, I bash him too for his goofy Manningface. But to say he hasn't carried the Giants over the past 5 years is pretty homeriffic, IMO. This season was the first season he didn't throw for over 4,000 yards in four seasons; he hasn't thrown for less than 3,200 yards except his rookie season. He threw for close to 5,000 yards last season. He's got two superbowl trophies in the past 5 years!

Let's be honest with ourselves here - if he had done the exact same things with the Redskins over the past 5 years, we'd be talking about him as a first-ballot hall of famer.

I'm not saying he's bad. I'm saying I don't think he'll live up to a 100+million dollar contract.

The only QB in the game right now that could qualify as living up to that contract over the last 5 years, in my opinion, is Brady. Even that's debatable to me. Rodgers may wind up having a career that justifies that kind of contract, but I'm not sure.

100+ million is a lot of money.

 

[McD5]

Flacco or RG3?

The fan in me sees a lot of upside in RG3. His ceiling seems to be higher.

The realist in me wonders if RG3 will ever lead us to 3 NFC championship games, and win a SB in his career. I would be pretty thrilled about that.

I wonder what a real NFL GM would prefer. A Flacco who seems to have ice in his veins during the playoffs, and who has never been injured? Or a RG3 who has already had 2 ACL surgeries and a concussion?

Which one is really the best bet for the next ten years?