How will you 'fan' the rest of the way - pray for wins or hope to lose out?

[Riggo44]

Ok grandpa, where’s the data from THIS YEAR!?

Well, A. You brought a point from three years ago, so... and B. Our whole team is hurt, jackass.

Kinlaw is exactly who the media thought he was, inconsistent. We’re league low in turnovers, historically bad on defense. Where are all great players you’re arguing for?

They're all hurt, dumbass. You're the one saying the roster was better, I have pointed where it was not. Instead of just repeating your same generalized statement--where are all the great players from Rivera we are regretting letting go? Prove me wrong.

Who has “produced” this year. Green Bay undressed us. Dallas too. We thought we won a Cracker Jack prize beating the Chargers, turns out they stink.

Well, as I said previously, Samuel has out produced any receiver not named McLaurin, who currently hurt, but had an all-pro year last year. He had a those before, under Rivera, right? Bill has out produced Gibson. Tunsil has out produced Leno. Conerly has out produced Wiley. Biadasz is better than Gates...I feel like I said all this already. I'm still waiting to hear how Rivera's roster 2-53 was better other than hearing about 3-4 players who currently blow. Ertz is old and can't run, but still better than Logan Thomas. Sinnot was hurt yesterday, but still better than famed Rivera pick Cole Turner. I wonder why Dallas beat us? Oh yeah, no one was healthy. Meanwhile, what did they do to Rivera every year?

You’re yelling and name calling, but what data do you have? So far I’m an F-18 to your crop duster perspective. But you swear you’re flying…

Keep thinking that. You've said absolutely nothing, proven nothing, just keep saying the same thing over and over again. But keep them coming. I work for the Government and things haven't picked up so I have the time to smack your dumbass around some more.

You're either a troll or an idiot. Or both. I have no problem reminding you of that every time you say something stupid.

 

[Riggo44]

I just got done saying make your case without the insults. We can make sure folks do that if you really want us to go there. Argue energetically but knock off the insults.

Both of you can dial it back a bit. The personal stuff has it’s place…but this ain’t it.

You're right, I am done. I am blocking my first person here. He is not worth my time or energy.

 

[lovemaskins]

I just got done saying make your case without the insults. We can make sure folks do that if you really want us to go there. Argue energetically but knock off the insults.

I’m done, I was trying to have a spirited debate, got a little tired of being called stupid and idiot. A man only has so many cheeks to turn.

 

[SkinsInSATX]

 

[Boone]

No one wants anyone to be ‘done’. Just eliminate the personal insults guys. It’s not as hard as it seems. Write your response but before hitting ‘post’ delete the personal insults

We really are all friends here who want the same damned thing. We differ only in how to get there and whose fault it is we are not yet there.

 

[SkinsInSATX]

No one wants anyone to be ‘done’. Just eliminate the personal insults guys. It’s not as hard as it seems. Write your response but before hitting ‘post’ delete the personal insults

We really are all friends here who want the same damned thing. We differ only in how to get there and whose fault it is we are not yet there.

 

[BayouBrave86]

We have a franchise QB at the end of the day finally (just needs to stay healthy) but everyone is getting injured this year. So that’s something to be thankful for. They’re incredibly hard to find. Play whatever youth we have for the rest of the season trial by fire style and let’s roll into next season fully healthy.

 

[SkinsNumberOne]

We have a franchise QB at the end of the day finally (just needs to stay healthy) but everyone is getting injured this year. So that’s something to be thankful for. They’re incredibly hard to find. Play whatever youth we have for the rest of the season trial by fire style and let’s roll into next season fully healthy.

Well, I would also say, evaluate your coaches. Last year was a great season but JD's phenomenal play as a new rookie QB masked a lot of issues on O and D.

This year is a more pure eval, oh yeah, except for the ridiculous amount of injuries! Still, I think you need to find ways to evaluate your coaches this year too, and I think there are ways. Everyone, every year, should be looked at to ensure their jobs are being done to the highest standard. That's the fastest way to get to the final goal here.

 

[BayouBrave86]

Well, I would also say, evaluate your coaches. Last year was a great season but JD's phenomenal play as a new rookie QB masked a lot of issues on O and D.

This year is a more pure eval, oh yeah, except for the ridiculous amount of injuries! Still, I think you need to find ways to evaluate your coaches this year too, and I think there are ways. Everyone, every year, should be looked at to ensure their jobs are being done to the highest standard. That's the fastest way to get to the final goal here.

100% , I’m not really impressed with this coaching staff even with the injuries and Kliff was running Jayden way too much.

 

[Neophyte]

I want to win. Period.

Some points:

- winning begets winning. It's cultural. A mindset that needs to permiate the club. Losing out would undermine the progress made last year.

- teams charge a lot of money for fans to attend games. I would argue it is incombent on the team to put the best possible product on the field every week. Anything else is negligent.

- higher draft picks mean nothing. Drafting in the Top 5 vs drafting in the Teens doesn't guarantee a team a better player. Chase Young was #2 overall while Micah Parsons went at #12. Which defender would you rather have today?

- shutting Daniels down for the season does nothing for Daniels next season. He maybe brilliant but he is still just a 2nd year player and game reps are still the best learning experience there is.

 

[Chris]

I want to win.

I want the team to try to win.

I don’t think the team is going to win.

 

[CuredFromBatteredFanSyndrome]

I want to win. Period.

Some points:

- winning begets winning. It's cultural. A mindset that needs to permiate the club. Losing out would undermine the progress made last year.

- teams charge a lot of money for fans to attend games. I would argue it is incombent on the team to put the best possible product on the field every week. Anything else is negligent.

- higher draft picks mean nothing. Drafting in the Top 5 vs drafting in the Teens doesn't guarantee a team a better player. Chase Young was #2 overall while Micah Parsons went at #12. Which defender would you rather have today?

- shutting Daniels down for the season does nothing for Daniels next season. He maybe brilliant but he is still just a 2nd year player and game reps are still the best learning experience there is.

I think there is sufficient proof that there’s no such thing as late season momentum carrying over to the next season. We should know this better than most. All of last years mojo has been exhausted and don’t see how a few wins that don’t result in a playoff berth regains it.

I understand the fans part, which is one of the unfortunate aspects of being a money-spending, ticket buying fan. I feel like I really dodged a bullet, as I was very close to becoming a STH this past offseason. God bless those that pay their hard earned money to sit in the cold and watch the remainder of a lost season.

Higher draft pick does matter, no matter your philosophy on the draft. It’s not the end all be all, but the higher pick is more valuable from a trade standpoint and we are a team that desperately needs draft picks.

Shutting Daniels down is just a piece of the pie. I mean sure, if he’s given a 100% bill of health next week and Terry can suit up, I think you have to play him. But if he’s not fully healthy, and he still has no legit outside receivers, I don’t think there is much value in those reps. Certainly not worth the gamble in a lost season.

 

[ArtMonkWasMyHero]

I am a fan. I always want my team to win.

But ... in this period of time, losing has an upside in the form of a better draft position.

 

[Neophyte]

I didn't say anything about "late-season momentum". I don't believe in it. What I do believe in is a winning mentality and that is developed as an organization. It creates in the players an absolute belief that this organization wins. Period. It is something we have not seen here since Gibbs 1, and if we want to rule the NFL again, we need to get into that headspace. That will never happen if the subliminal message from coaches and the front office is that we are playing for a draft pick.

Sure, the value of a higher pick is greater...if someone out there wants/needs a specific player. This philosphy works to greatest effect in years with great QBs available. That isn't this year. The odds of this team getting into the Top 3 picks are slim and the difference in trade value between #5 and #8 is negligable. Assuming there is a deal to made at all.

I never said playing him at less than 100% was something the team should do. I said shutting him down gains him zero experience. If he is healthy, you play him to get him that experience and to send the message to the team that we do everything we can win here.

 

[CuredFromBatteredFanSyndrome]

I didn't say anything about "late-season momentum". I don't believe in it. What I do believe in is a winning mentality and that is developed as an organization. It creates in the players an absolute belief that this organization wins. Period. It is something we have not seen here since Gibbs 1, and if we want to rule the NFL again, we need to get into that headspace. That will never happen if the subliminal message from coaches and the front office is that we are playing for a draft pick.

Sure, the value of a higher pick is greater...if someone out there wants/needs a specific player. This philosphy works to greatest effect in years with great QBs available. That isn't this year. The odds of this team getting into the Top 3 picks are slim and the difference in trade value between #5 and #8 is negligable. Assuming there is a deal to made at all.

I never said playing him at less than 100% was something the team should do. I said shutting him down gains him zero experience. If he is healthy, you play him to get him that experience and to send the message to the team that we do everything we can win here.

I am certain that Dan and all the players want and actively try to win every week the entire season. There’s no subliminal messaging for a higher draft pick. Nor will there be any tank strategy being deployed. I’m not even sure this is a real thing.

Sometimes you just stink, and this team stinks. The time to change that is in the offseason. No upset victories in December are going to pay dividends in 2026.

 

[Boone]

I have removed 'tank' from the thread title since this is not about the team intentionally trying to lose out for draft position. I'm just asking what your fan preference is. Are you a 'win no matter what' guy, or are you looking at better draft position as the only positive to come out of a lost season?

 

[Boone]

I didn't say anything about "late-season momentum". I don't believe in it. What I do believe in is a winning mentality and that is developed as an organization. It creates in the players an absolute belief that this organization wins. Period. It is something we have not seen here since Gibbs 1, and if we want to rule the NFL again, we need to get into that headspace. That will never happen if the subliminal message from coaches and the front office is that we are playing for a draft pick.

Sure, the value of a higher pick is greater...if someone out there wants/needs a specific player. This philosphy works to greatest effect in years with great QBs available. That isn't this year. The odds of this team getting into the Top 3 picks are slim and the difference in trade value between #5 and #8 is negligable. Assuming there is a deal to made at all.

I never said playing him at less than 100% was something the team should do. I said shutting him down gains him zero experience. If he is healthy, you play him to get him that experience and to send the message to the team that we do everything we can win here.

Neo - this is not directly a response to what you said, just something your comments made me think of, so not putting words in your mouth.

My only problem with the 'trying to develop a winning culture' argument is that I don't think it's about 'culture' per se. I don't think coaches can 'rah rah' the team to a winning culture. All of the Dan Quinn-isms (which btw, go from amusing and cute to downright nauseating when we are losing badly) in the world won't give us a winning culture. All the 'outwork everyone' and 'being in the right mental space' or none of that stuff creates a consistent winner.

What creates a consistent winner in my opinion is having difference makers who are fierce competitors all over the field. Guys who can really play at a high level and who hate losing above everything else. We don't have that. Beyond Jayden and Bobby Wagner (who is that guy, but is close to being washed), who are those guys on this roster? We trot Zach Ertz out there as a supposed 'team leader' every week, meanwhile, he only practices half the time and is the first guy to make an inexcusable mental error in a crucial moment.

I keep hearing about the 'dawgs' we have, but the truth is, we have very, very few of them. Coaches matter, but once the live action starts, it's guys like London Fletcher, Sean Taylor, not necessarily of that talent level, but of that mindset, who make you highly competitive. When we need big plays made, who on this roster is capable at a individual personal level of making them? I'll wait.

It all comes back to talent - and I don't just mean physical talent, but I include things like mental toughness, perserverance, positive attitude, and opportunistic aggression in my 'talent' definition. We don't currently have the horses - we don't have anywhere near enough of those types of players. It doesn't matter who plays the rest of the way, it's only going to change by finding those types of players over the next 3-5 years. And, not to point out the obvious, but more and better draft picks might prove very helpful in that pursuit.

 

[Primus Porcus]

I think there are two different conversations going on about winning culture. I personally side with Neo.

The coaches absolutely need to press the locker room and create a culture that losing is never acceptable. We never roll over and die. 0-16 or 16-0 the expectation of preparation, execution, whether it's the best player on the team, or the one considered to be the 53rd.... No matter what happens, you create an expectation of winning. Winning 'meaningless' games in December can have an actual effect on young players because at some point you have to get the carrot. Proper preparation and game planning has to work on some level if you want guys to actually believe it in. I absolutely want to win as many games as possible as a fan, because as a fan it's more fun to see my team be successful. Winning more games means younger players are executing better, which likely means we're getting development from our guys.

That all said, it's not lost on me that improving draft status gives us a better shot at getting better players because the pool is bigger. The number of premium players is higher, the higher your draft pick... basic math.

All of that means squat if the rest of the team is trash, or the evaluators can't do their job. PERSONALLY i think we've already bottomed out in the rebuild, and the upward trajectory (not trend) started last year when we drafted Jayden. Regardless of what happened this season vs last season, I think we're in a better place than we were when AP and company took over, so losing more doesn't benefit anymore. It's time to change the direction.



Ultimately wins and losses aren't the most important thing to me either. It's development. I want to see development and continued growth for the long term of the team. We've seen some, it's there whether some people want to admit it or not. Some of it we absolutely would like to see more (at least faster) and that development can continue. I want a complete roster, and if that means that over the next month we see guys take steps toward being a long term contributor, and we end up winning games because of that? Sign me up.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

I was rooting for the team to win all game, I'm relieved that they weren't an embarrassment again on such a big stage. But when it was over my thought was this was for the best. A top pick could be turned into multiple picks or land a true difference maker and no teams rarely have any "carry over" effect from winning meaningless games in December.

But when Jayden Daniels takes the field no way will I be rooting for them to fail. I'd like to see them lose a bunch of 41-40 games to show us that Jayden is back and to force the organization to make dramatic changes to the defensive coaching staff.

 

[skinsinparadise]

For me, i am mostly interested in these things.

A. Jayden comes back, assuming at least Terry is back too to help. I am not one of the people here who feel that Jayden has slipped. I do think it matters throwing to bad Wrs who aren't running the correct routes. I do think it matters when teams play man with no fear and can just tee off the QB. I do think it matters if your defense puts you so way behind so fast where you can't run the ball much and have to throw and again defenses can tee off. All of this works in a symphony.

So some think Jayden at least had to take some blame when Robbie Chosen runs the wrong route or when he scrambles because no one is open, etc. lol, yeah some sarcasm on my end to make a point. But I'd like to see Jayden even if its with just one good WR and a bad but not atrocious defense. Give Jayden a little more to work with and I think we will see last season's Jayden. I do think lesson learned from Adam Peters that you can't go into a season with no legit Z and no legit backups at outside WR. That was malpractice IMO from Peters.

Jayden didn't have a great supporting cast last year but it was at least OK. the defense was bad last year but not this level bad. So seeing Jayden in non ideal circumstanes, we saw that last year. This year is Jayden playing under atrocious conditions. So lol, I'd like to see Jayden again if he has at least one WR and Quinn can elevate the defense from atrocious to maybe just bad. He's still young. Get some reps. Rebuild your confidence. And the bonus for me is take some fans off the ledge so I won't have to spend hours defending Jayden this off season.

B. Joe Whitt is IMO a really really bad defensive coodinator. I know that's opinion but that take has grown with me over time. Players regress and play worse under him. they leave and play better elsewhere. This defense was bad before the injuries. I recall Sheehan liked to say last year, the defense is playing bad but it shouldn't be this bad considering the talent is not that level bad. I agree. IMO when healthy this is an average talent defense. Not great. Not awful. But they underacheive to say the least under Whitt.

So you got a unit that's just OK talent wise. Then you pile on injuries to make it worse. Then you pile on maybe the worst coached unit in the league. And this is what we get. I want to see this defense look better. I am not expecting great. Even bad is OK. But not atrocious.

I want Quinn's takeaway to be you know what lets hire a top defensive coordinator this off season, it can make a big difference. Also, I want him to be more hands on to this unit and see the value of it.

C. On ES I was the king of tank when the season went off the rails. But this is different to me. The tanking was often about shooting for a QB. And at least on first glance at this draft class, i am not so sure it matters if they are picking 5 or 9 or even 12 at the moment, So with that in mind, I'd like to see an upset win of a team preferably an NFC East team, Dallas or Philly. Show some grit. Pull off a feel good win or two. Yes, I would like to see them win some games in the home stretch. The team looked enthusiastic-fired up for a change in the Miami game -- I'd like to see some carry over of that.

D. Development. Too bad some of the younger players are out like Amos and McCaffrey. But work on the others -- Sainristill had one of his better games last week sans the dropped punt. Has Quan changed from being an emerging safety to someone who sucks or does Whitt have something to do with it? Sinottt? Conerly is playing better that's good.

Part of my optimism for next season is arguably the hardest spots to build are the QB spot and O line and this team has both. If the defense talent wise is truly average (not this injured version of it), I think this team will reemerge next season. To me the good and bad news of the roster construction. The bad news is IMHO the mistakes of this off season could have easily been avoided. they felt arrogant among other things. The good news is the mistakes are so easy to see, and its so easy to see where it went wrong, that they will fix it and they have the means to do it. I think Peters made mistakes this off season but i don't think he's an idiot. He's a smart dude, they will fix this.