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Win4us

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Question for you guys who watch a lot of college ball. How is this draft class on TE depth?
 

Lanky Livingston

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Bulldog, I am obsessed with the TE position because the position is evolving. The offenses in this league that have a great one like New Orleans, New England, Green Bay and Atlanta, all have the best offenses in the league.

You're argument that we went 10-6 with Moss making many of those catches is the same as if I say we went 10-6 with a secondary of riff-raff and an RT that couldn't stop me in Pass pro.
Spot on right here. To say the TE position isn't important is to ignore the current NFL landscape. Jared Cook just broke the bank in St. Louis, and he's not even top 5 at the position, possibly not even top 10.

Moss did not catch a lot of TE balls, he caught a lot of slot WR balls. Big difference! And if you have a speedy TE AND an elusive slot WR on the field at the same time, your options are so much broader!

We need a good TE, its that simple. I believe they'll bring back Davis, because all other options aren't that great.
 

fansince62

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Perhaps fodder for a new thread - before we get to who should be drafted (at least on offense)...how do we think the offense will have to change next season? what the Shanhan's engineered last season was brilliant - it also almost ended our franchise QB's career.

how will the O have to change and does that drive different priorities for the draft?
 

Lanky Livingston

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Question for you guys who watch a lot of college ball. How is this draft class on TE depth?
I don't watch a ton of college ball, but the consensus seems to be this draft is pretty deep at the TE position. There are several sleepers who should be available in the later rounds who could make an impact. As far as a Jimmy Graham or Tony Gonzalez, I'm not sure if there's one of those or not.
 

Lanky Livingston

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Perhaps fodder for a new thread - before we get to who should be drafted (at least on offense)...how do we think the offense will have to change next season? what the Shanhan's engineered last season was brilliant - it also almost ended our franchise QB's career.

how will the O have to change and does that drive different priorities for the draft?
I'm not going to answer your question here, but I saw an awesome Shanahan quote that got me excited for the season on the read option:

"We don't have to run the read-option, but defenses have to prepare for it."

The thought that the entire last season was a feint on offense, and now we've got a whole new system coming that looks the same but plays out differently is exciting!
 

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Bulldog, I am obsessed with the TE position because the position is evolving. The offenses in this league that have a great one like New Orleans, New England, Green Bay and Atlanta, all have the best offenses in the league.

You're argument that we went 10-6 with Moss making many of those catches is the same as if I say we went 10-6 with a secondary of riff-raff and an RT that couldn't stop me in Pass pro.
The top 5 offenses in the NFL last year in terms of yards per game were, in order, New England, New Orleans, Detroit, Denver and Washington. Only the first two have "elite" Tight Ends and even then, none of those guys played a full season (Graham - 15 games and little more than a decoy in at least 2 of those, Gronk - 11 games, Hernandez - 10 games).

Spot on right here. To say the TE position isn't important is to ignore the current NFL landscape. Jared Cook just broke the bank in St. Louis, and he's not even top 5 at the position, possibly not even top 10.

Moss did not catch a lot of TE balls, he caught a lot of slot WR balls. Big difference! And if you have a speedy TE AND an elusive slot WR on the field at the same time, your options are so much broader!

We need a good TE, its that simple. I believe they'll bring back Davis, because all other options aren't that great.
Just because the Rams stretched on signing Cook doesn't mean the TE position is stunningly important. What it means is the Rams stretched on signing a TE.

Look, the TE has never been a huge factor in Kyle's offense. He would rather push the ball up the field to the WRs. I know Daniels had a couple of decent years in Houston with Kyle calling the plays but they threw the ball more than we are right now so there were more balls to go around.

Neither of the two teams in this last year's Super Bowl use the TE to great effect. Most fans would have a hard time naming a TE for the Ravens and the 49ers seem to have forgotten that Vernon Davis is even on the team.

With the offense we are running, I just don't see the need for a barn burning TE. He would go to waste. We need what we have...a guy who blocks really well and gets open enough to make 3 or 4 really solid plays for first downs a game when the defense has forgotten about him.
 

fansince62

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I'm not going to answer your question here, but I saw an awesome Shanahan quote that got me excited for the season on the read option:

"We don't have to run the read-option, but defenses have to prepare for it."

The thought that the entire last season was a feint on offense, and now we've got a whole new system coming that looks the same but plays out differently is exciting!
you're on to something here!

the age old dynamic: move...counter-move!!!
 

fansince62

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If people review my orig post you will see I based the argument on the notion that we do not have a bona fide wideout threat other than garçon. Morgan came on toward the end of the year - but he is not a game changer. This is a strong draft class for TEs - I coupled the two thoughts together. I also think Shanahan has been thinking the same thing for a while - there's a reason he moved Paul to TE...an end state if you will that he is chasing.
 

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I actually think Shanahan moved Paul to TE in order to get his best blocking WR on the field more along with his best pass catching WRs.
 

fansince62

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I actually think Shanahan moved Paul to TE in order to get his best blocking WR on the field more along with his best pass catching WRs.
best blocking WR compared to the other TEs? it's a time management matter. not sure I see that.

an alternative view might be that he wanted to keep Paul for STs, didn't see him as WR material but needed a justification to keep him.

anywho....all valid povs. TEs get open these days down the seams, over the middle and in the End Zone - a lot. we'll see what happens!
 

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This just in...Davis met with the Bills this weekend and is planning on talking to the Jets.


Fred Davis isn't done meeting with suitors from the AFC East. After dining with the Buffalo Bills over the weekend, the free-agent tight end is slated to visit with the New York Jets.

Davis told ProFootballCentral he plans to huddle with New York "in a couple of days," and John Keim of the Washington Examiner also reported a visit was on tap. That will happen after the Bills host the former Redskins tight end on Thursday. Washington also remains interested in re-signing Davis.

The Jets are desperate for help at the position after Dustin Keller signed a one-year deal with the Miami Dolphins. Keller was arguably New York's most consistent threat when healthy. Jeff Cumberland can't fill those shoes, but Davis -- coming off a season-ending Achilles injury -- would give t a dynamic playmaker.

The Jets, however, aren't likely to win a price war with the Bills. New York has created cap room by chopping veterans off the roster, but Gang Green has been quiet in free agency and looks like a team in a complete rebuild. Adding Davis would bring some much-needed excitement to coach Rex Ryan's flailing offense.
Article link: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000154227/article/fred-davis-says-he-will-meet-with-new-york-jets
 

tshile

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Obviously I'm not an NFL player, but I would like to think that if I were there would come a point in time where money was the least of my concerns when looking for a new deal. I would rate the likelihood of the team being successful first and the likelihood of me being a successful big-time contributor second. Location/family dynamics third, and I suppose money fourth.

Davis should be, by no stretch of the imagination, a multi-millionaire at this point. Money gained by playing a sport; a game.

Leaving the redskins and going to the bills, jets, or browns just seems like an utterly stupid move at this point. He could not only be on a successful team with (what I believe will be) an elite quarter back and a (again, what I believe is) top notch coaching staff, but he could be a huge contributor in that.

You can apply that to pretty much every free agent signing. It just doesn't make sense to me. These guys already have millions of dollars and they're passing up the chance to be on a good team, or be on a team with legit super bowl chances (in general, not the redskins), to go make (what is, in the grand scheme of things) a little more money?

Seems like priorities are backwards but I guess I'm not an NFL player so I don't understand.
 

servumtuum

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Perceptions of success-in this case financially-are made relative to one's peers-again, in this case, NFL football players in which case Davis is plausibly using positional expectations-how much "elite" TEs versus "average" TEs are being paid and tenure in the profession as a metric for gauging his position relative to where he thinks he "should" be.

Is he being realistic? Probably not, but I think it's how he's likely to be deriving his conclusions about what he should be asking for.

An inflated perception of one's value, of course, can increase the likelihood of expectations not matching observed reality resulting in dashed hopes and disillusionment, with possibly an added touch of bitterness but, not meaning to sound callous but probably doing so, that's his problem.
 

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Actually t, I doubt Davis is as well off as we would all like to think he is. Sure, he has played 5 years in the NFL but he was only a mid second rounder coming in so he didn't get stupid money as a rookie and he played that contract out. Then he was franchised for a year, and while that appears to be a lot of money on paper, it needs to be remembered that it isn't guaranteed money and he was hurt 7 games in last year so he got less than half the money on that contract.

The numbers I am finding indicate that his rookie deal was worth $3.5 million with a $1.8 million bonus. His franchise number was $5.446 million. So figure that he has made somewhere in the neighborhood of $5.9 million in his career then factor in taxes on that.

I don't blame Davis for looking for a payday at this point. He has made really good money but it isn't what I would call generational money yet...not in this economy and with the taxes he had to pay.

He is still in need of that payday that will set him up for life.
 

tshile

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Yeah, I guess 5.9 million minus taxes and fees (read: agents) seems like enough to me. I know it's not generational money. I guess there's just a big disconnect for me because I would think having 2 million dollars would be enough, which he probably has after everything is taken out.
 

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Yeah, I guess 5.9 million minus taxes and fees (read: agents) seems like enough to me. I know it's not generational money. I guess there's just a big disconnect for me because I would think having 2 million dollars would be enough, which he probably has after everything is taken out.
This goes back to serv's point about perceived value. It also has a lot to do with age, my friend. I could turn $5.9 million into generational money at my current age where I doubt I would have been smart enough to do it at Fred's age. Of course, the 2 decade difference in our ages is big.

I would continue to drive my Honda and I would likely stay in the house I just built. In fact, not a lot in my life would change other than how I vacationed and quitting my job. You are probably much the same way at this point in your life. You understand the value of a dollar because you have had to work hard for what you have.

That isn't to say that football isn't hard work but it isn't the same as the 9 to 5 grind some of us have been doing now for longer than Fred has even drawn breathe. He, and pretty much all football players, don't get it. They a kid's game for a king's ransom and often don't really appreciate it until it is over.
 

Fear The Spear

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This just in...Davis met with the Bills this weekend and is planning on talking to the Jets.
Hopefully laron talks to him and gets him to sign.
You're aware that Landry is no longer a Jet, right ?
Are you referring to Landry convincing Davis to sign with his "former team"
 

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Obviously I'm not an NFL player, but I would like to think that if I were there would come a point in time where money was the least of my concerns when looking for a new deal. I would rate the likelihood of the team being successful first and the likelihood of me being a successful big-time contributor second. Location/family dynamics third, and I suppose money fourth.

Davis should be, by no stretch of the imagination, a multi-millionaire at this point. Money gained by playing a sport; a game.

Leaving the redskins and going to the bills, jets, or browns just seems like an utterly stupid move at this point. He could not only be on a successful team with (what I believe will be) an elite quarter back and a (again, what I believe is) top notch coaching staff, but he could be a huge contributor in that.

You can apply that to pretty much every free agent signing. It just doesn't make sense to me. These guys already have millions of dollars and they're passing up the chance to be on a good team, or be on a team with legit super bowl chances (in general, not the redskins), to go make (what is, in the grand scheme of things) a little more money?

Seems like priorities are backwards but I guess I'm not an NFL player so I don't understand.
The other thing to consider is the union and other players. The NFL PA is no where near as powerful as the MLB PA, but if you remember about 10 years, ARod wanted to sign with Boston for less money than the Rangers were offering, because he felt (correctly so as it turned out) that Boston would give him a better chance to win a ring. The Union went nuts and forced him to sign with Texas so he didn't drag down other palyers' values on the open market.

The NFL PA is not THAT powerful, but there are probably a few mid-level tier TEs who are watching what Davis does fairly closely, and he knows it.
 

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Davis and his agent are short sighted because the teams he is visiting don't have legit qbs and he is not going to put up the kind of numbers to get a max deal in 2014.
 

SkinsOrlando

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Let him walk, in this cap situation we must be frugal and wise in our spending, signing Davis is neither
 

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