Assume the worst - Clean house or stay the course?

[Boone]

Of course we ALL hope our guys win out and make it to the playoffs. No matter what happens after that, we can take some comfort that the team achieved that important milestone as evidence the rebuild is moving in the right direction.

But if the team is unable to do what it takes to get the playoffs, what then?

Is it time to blow it up, clean house, and start over?

 

[SilentThreat]

- Not 'clean house' but make some changes

Looking at this team I think we're (on field) a QB, and better O-line play away from being in honest contention.

Off the field, I think we need a spark in the game plan. I don't have believe Turner can see it. I don't think Turner is flexible enough to overcome the deficiencies above...


THIS team has the ability to win against anyone in the NFC, so an offense that can produce 24 points or more (top 10 in the league) means they're right at the top with anyone out there.

We currently average 19 points a game. We're a TD away per game from being top 5. I think we have the skill position players to do it. Between the OC, and the QB, we've left AT LEAST 7 points on the field every game. We've missed open guys, turned the ball over, had mind numbing playcalls, done a lot to restrict the offense despite the opportunities being there.

I think 'the right' QB could come in here and be enough of a difference with the current coaching staff. I think the right OC could come here, and be enough of a difference with the current QBs. I think needing better QB play AND needing better from the OC can both be true...

 

[Kel Varnsen]

I know this kind of defeats the purpose of this thread, but I want to get a new owner first then let them decide the fate of the football staff. There are a lot of people I’d like to see go, but to me, the worst case scenario is everyone is fired after the season, Snyder still owns the team until say May, and he is responsible for picking a coach, GM, and other football people to keep the team afloat during the transition. That means that group signs free agents and does the draft. And a new owner has to deal with a coach in the first year of a 5 year contract. If we have to deal with Snyder through the middle of the offseason, I’d rather stay with this group. Then the new owner can figure out next year what to do with the coaches and other front office personnel.

 

[Boone]

Blow it up.

Rivera is not a consistent winning coach. His team's consistently show up not ready to play - both in individual games and in terms of the first 1/3rd of the season. Nice man. Good leader. Very average head coach. Below average in-game coach.

You know where I stand on Turner. He's still learning. Give us a even an above average QB under center and I think things look a lot better.

But if this current coaching group cannot hold onto a playoff spot they'll have had 6 weeks to salt away, they don't deserve another chance. We are in year 3 of a rebuild and that's unacceptable.

Start over now while you still have time to turn it around with the talent that we do have across the roster. The alternative is wasting 2 more years watching Rivera and company flail and bungle their way through a couple more seasons while our existing talent gets older.

 

[Boone]

I know this kind of defeats the purpose of this thread, but I want to get a new owner first then let them decide the fate of the football staff. There are a lot of people I’d like to see go, but to me, the worst case scenario is everyone is fired after the season, Snyder still owns the team until say May, and he is responsible for picking a coach, GM, and other football people to keep the team afloat during the transition. That means that group signs free agents and does the draft. And a new owner has to deal with a coach in the first year of a 5 year contract. If we have to deal with Snyder through the middle of the offseason, I’d rather stay with this group. Then the new owner can figure out next year what to do with the coaches and other front office personnel.

I hear you Kel but I think the good news is that no prospective new owner is going to agree to a timetable that allows Snyder to blow it up and be a decision-maker in choosing a new regime - that's just not going to happen imho.

 

[Boone]

- Not 'clean house' but make some changes

Looking at this team I think we're (on field) a QB, and better O-line play away from being in honest contention.

Off the field, I think we need a spark in the game plan. I don't have believe Turner can see it. I don't think Turner is flexible enough to overcome the deficiencies above...


THIS team has the ability to win against anyone in the NFC, so an offense that can produce 24 points or more (top 10 in the league) means they're right at the top with anyone out there.

We currently average 19 points a game. We're a TD away per game from being top 5. I think we have the skill position players to do it. Between the OC, and the QB, we've left AT LEAST 7 points on the field every game. We've missed open guys, turned the ball over, had mind numbing playcalls, done a lot to restrict the offense despite the opportunities being there.

I think 'the right' QB could come in here and be enough of a difference with the current coaching staff. I think the right OC could come here, and be enough of a difference with the current QBs. I think needing better QB play AND needing better from the OC can both be true...

I struggle seeing Rivera being aggressive in addressing either issue though. He has really been inept in trying to address the QB situation. It's been a total goat rope on that front. He's already floating the idea that they don't want to have to find a new QB in 2023. Well - no shit! We all *wish* we could make Carson Wentz or someone else on the roster a superstar. But there's no evidence so far that is even a possibility. I have very low confidence, barring some incredible change (like Wentz leading us to the Super Bowl this year and resurrecting his career), that Rivera can find us a great QB.

And I also am very skeptical that Rivera has the balls or big picture sense to make a massive change like firing his OC. I think Rivera is loyal to a fault, even when such loyalty is unwarranted and hurtful to the overall effort. I would love to be wrong if there were a chance at upgrading at other coaching positions, but it just doesn't seem likely he is going to make a bold move on that front either.

I think, again barring a major turn around here at the end of the 2022 season, Rivera has to go.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

I hear you Kel but I think the good news is that no prospective new owner is going to agree to a timetable that allows Snyder to blow it up and be a decision-maker in choosing a new regime - that's just not going to happen imho.

I would hope not, but I do worry about Snyder trying to burn it all down as he leaves. When he bought the team, he gutted it all, including people that were critical to the organization that weren't front and center. I do think the NFL would step in to make sure the organization isn't left in total shambles. But until we get word about a new owner, that guy is still in charge and that scares me.

 

[SilentThreat]

I struggle seeing Rivera being aggressive in addressing either issue though. He has really been inept in trying to address the QB situation. It's been a total goat rope on that front. He's already floating the idea that they don't want to have to find a new QB in 2023. Well - no shit! We all *wish* we could make Carson Wentz or someone else on the roster a superstar. But there's no evidence so far that is even a possibility. I have very low confidence, barring some incredible change (like Wentz leading us to the Super Bowl this year and resurrecting his career), that Rivera can find us a great QB.

And I also am very skeptical that Rivera has the balls or big picture sense to make a massive change like firing his OC. I think Rivera is loyal to a fault, even when such loyalty is unwarranted and hurtful to the overall effort. I would love to be wrong if there were a chance at upgrading at other coaching positions, but it just doesn't seem likely he is going to make a bold move on that front either.

I think, again barring a major turn around here at the end of the 2022 season, Rivera has to go.

Fair, I just see a team that I think can win, and effectively, so I'd hate to truly step backwards.

That said, I do agree on Rivera, though he appears to be right about Del Rio. We were all ready to send him packing 4 games into the season.

 

[DieselPwr44]

Not clean house but make some changes.

I'd fire Scott Turner and pursue Frank Reich for OC. He's more experienced and has run better offenses.
He's no stranger to running the football with a good back and has experience as a QB coach.

I do not believe that will happen for reasons Boone mentioned earlier. But if I could make that happen,I would.

I'd also let Wentz walk(barring a miracle run to the NFC Title game where it was clear he had a huge hand in) and direct some of the savings towards the Oline,LB spots and resigning DaRon Payne.

You guys have known me here for years,it's no secret that I firmly believe you win up front.Got a good dline right now...I'd like to balance things and get the oline on par with it.

 

[Chris]

I know this kind of defeats the purpose of this thread, but I want to get a new owner first then let them decide the fate of the football staff. There are a lot of people I’d like to see go, but to me, the worst case scenario is everyone is fired after the season, Snyder still owns the team until say May, and he is responsible for picking a coach, GM, and other football people to keep the team afloat during the transition. That means that group signs free agents and does the draft. And a new owner has to deal with a coach in the first year of a 5 year contract. If we have to deal with Snyder through the middle of the offseason, I’d rather stay with this group. Then the new owner can figure out next year what to do with the coaches and other front office personnel.

That post raised the hair on the back of my neck.

 

[Solitary Man]

I like Rivera but we are getting out coached time and time again. He would have to either go or relinquish on the field decisions. Which he would not do I’m sure. Turner has some really nice play designs but struggles to make the right call at the right time.

I don’t think Del Rio is a huge liability. I’m neutral on him. Even though I think he is an ass.


I love a lot of the talent on this team which speaks to who is handling the draft. I’m stumped on how they ignored linebacker and cb depth.

Benching and getting rid of WJ3 was a miracle but this acquisition of a player who could not play zone was beyond bad.


So I would make serious changes. Maybe closer to blowing it up than I initially thought.

 

[Boone]

I like Rivera but we are getting out coached time and time again. He would have to either go or relinquish on the field decisions. Which he would not do I’m sure. Turner has some really nice play designs but struggles to make the right call at the right time.

I don’t think Del Rio is a huge liability. I’m neutral on him. Even though I think he is an ass.


I love a lot of the talent on this team which speaks to who is handling the draft. I’m stumped on how they ignored linebacker and cb depth.

Benching and getting rid of WJ3 was a miracle but this acquisition of a player who could not play zone was beyond bad.


So I would make serious changes. Maybe closer to blowing it up than I initially thought.

This lines up with how I see it quite a bit.

 

[Canadian Hog]

When Ron Rivera was hired, I always personally believed that job #1 for him was to help get the franchise standing on solid ground - things like improving team character, image, etc. I believe he has succeeded quite a bit in this regard, especially considering the immense challenges and mess he took on when he walked into this dumpster fire. It sounds crazy to say that something would trump winning for a professional sports franchise, but in the case of Washington, I believe cleaning up the culture was as paramount as wins and losses. I saw Rivera as playing the role of "table setter" - being the guy to get the franchise steered in the right direction and eventually needing someone else to come aboard who would then put the team over the top. Has he gotten the franchise steered in the right direction? The jury is still out I suppose. The talent pool on the roster is immensely better, but there are obvious holes still to fill that really hold us back. It is especially disappointing knowing that we seemingly don't have the QB situation figured out as we almost approach Ron's fourth year into the operation. Elsewhere, he has done fairly well. We have RBs, WRs, DLmen, and Secondary players that can establish a solid core for years to come and set us up for long term success. I would be willing to give him year four to sort out the OL, LB, TE, and QB positions. If it is more of the same, then heading into year five to me would be the time to cut ties.

 

[Chris]

At this point I am inclined to give him one more year. I don’t want Snyder making any change. I don’t want an owner-in-waiting making any change, if in fact there is going to be one. I will always choose stability over chaos.

 

[Boone]

When Ron Rivera was hired, I always personally believed that job #1 for him was to help get the franchise standing on solid ground - things like improving team character, image, etc. I believe he has succeeded quite a bit in this regard, especially considering the immense challenges and mess he took on when he walked into this dumpster fire. It sounds crazy to say that something would trump winning for a professional sports franchise, but in the case of Washington, I believe cleaning up the culture was as paramount as wins and losses. I saw Rivera as playing the role of "table setter" - being the guy to get the franchise steered in the right direction and eventually needing someone else to come aboard who would then put the team over the top. Has he gotten the franchise steered in the right direction? The jury is still out I suppose. The talent pool on the roster is immensely better, but there are obvious holes still to fill that really hold us back. It is especially disappointing knowing that we seemingly don't have the QB situation figured out as we almost approach Ron's fourth year into the operation. Elsewhere, he has done fairly well. We have RBs, WRs, DLmen, and Secondary players that can establish a solid core for years to come and set us up for long term success. I would be willing to give him year four to sort out the OL, LB, TE, and QB positions. If it is more of the same, then heading into year five to me would be the time to cut ties.

Super valid points across the board here Paul.

 

[Boone]

At this point I am inclined to give him one more year. I don’t want Snyder making any change. I don’t want an owner-in-waiting making any change, if in fact there is going to be one. I will always choose stability over chaos.

I have myself harped on the constant regime change (both positionally and in regards to coaching) as a major aspect of failed strategy over the years with this franchise. So even though I personally am almost to the point where I want to see the leadership replaced, you make a valid point that consistency and reduced turmoil (ie ‘patience’) is generally a positive thing.

 

[MikefromOH]

Del Rio doesn't adjust
Turner doesn't adjust
Rivera can't control them

Clean house.

 

[Knightingale]

I'm with Canadian Hog here I think.

When the team hired Ron and Jason Wright, I think the aim was to have the former turn around the Football operation, and the latter turn around the Front Office.
The latter has delivered seriously underwhelming results. Off the field, this team is still a trainwreck.

As much as Ron might only be an average coach, he has turned the on-the-field part of the team from a laughing stock into a professional team that is relevant for much of the season.2
We have good playmakers at many positions, and promise moving forwards. If we do get a new owner soon, there is likely to be a fair bit or turmoil while that straightens itself out. I'd like to keep the football side of the operation steady and five Ron the chance to complete what he started. Use the draft to start shoring up those weakspots (especially O-Line. The biggest mistake the Rivera regime have arguable made was to undervalue what Scherff brought to the table and think they could replace him by committee) and we could have a pretty good roster next year.

The QB issue... tricky one. I see this as all about hitting the draft lottery, and we all know how tricky that is.
If you're trading for a QB or taking on in FA, then you gotta ask youself why they're available? Why is the incumbant team willing to lose a 'franchise' QB. Usually because they aren't a 'franchise QB' any more.
So you need to build through the draft, but there's a slim difference between gold and fools-gold. I would rather keep rolling that dice though.

I'd like to see Ron jettison Wentz, retain Heineke as a competent back up, and roll with Howell next year. See what the kids got.
Draft hard on the O-Line, and take another high to mid-round QB to keep the pipeline rolling with possibilities.
Get rid of Turner (though, like Boone, I don't see this happening) and hire someone with a good track record.
Oh and PLEASE resign Payne with some of that Wentz money.

If we can roll into 2023 with the Defense intact (and a couple of depth pieces added), with a solid Oline (with depth) and with a sophmore QB who has spent a year learning the system and the ropes, then we could be in pretty good shape.

 

[Boone]

I think one question that remains to be seen is if Rivera WANTS to remain here after his current obligation. I'd have to see a lot more on-the-field improvement to want that myself. But I've heard quite a few statements from Ron that sounded like he didn't intend to be here long-term. He hasn't overtly said that, but he's hinted that he saw his role as getting the franchise back on a solid foundation, not necessarily being here as an entrenched long-term HC/GM. And you are 100% right Knight - he has done a ton of positive things here and the team does look more promising in a lot of ways than it has in a long while. That does count a lot, I'm just not sure how much if you cannot consistently win. Will be an interesting few weeks with a lot at stake.

 

[Chris]

So it looks like time to gear up for Washington’s most exciting time of the year, the ever-promising off-season.

Same as it ever was.