Assume the worst - Clean house or stay the course?

[Neophyte]

I've seen several folks say here on BGO and on Twitter that they want Heinicke gone next year because the second whoever the starter is has a bad game the fans will be screaming to put Taylor in.

I get that argument but let's be clear, the fans will scream for the backup regardless of who the backup is. It is the way of the NFL everywhere unless you have someone like Pat Mahomes, Josh Allen, Joe Burrow, or Tom Brady under center. There are only a few guys in the NFL who get this from the fan base after a couple of bad games.

So for me, as long as we are going to keep Turner, I say keep Heinicke as the backup. At least then we have some confidence in who is taking over in case of injury.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

Rivera needs to go, frankly he was never gonna be the guy to lead this team , to be honest I am not even sure this team under current ownership can even be competitive. I used to think Dan was ok because he was willing to spend money, but he just sees to refuse to want to spend it on anything that isnt flashy. we need better scouting, better front office and better coaching not just shiny free agents.

 

[Bulldog]

The fact the quarterback he vouched for and paid $28M to couldn’t beat out a guy who was at home working on his MBA two years ago shows that Ron at the very least needs a GM to keep him and his ego in check.

A new owner is going to bring in a new executive. For $7B that only seems reasonable.

Ron will likely refuse to accept that and there will be a settlement.

If the sale drags, Ron and Co. will be back.

Hey, Ryan Tannehill is going to be a free agent

 

[MikefromOH]

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

View attachment 6489

where did their defences finish statistically each season? thats a huge measure of a defensive player, I would argue that as much as personal stats, the true measure of a great player is that he elevates the defences he is on, not just by racking stats but by racking stats when it matters.

 

[SilentThreat]

where did their defences finish statistically each season? thats a huge measure of a defensive player, I would argue that as much as personal stats, the true measure of a great player is that he elevates the defences he is on, not just by racking stats but by racking stats when it matters.

I don't know if that's really fair

Hall of Fame should not consider team success (i'm assuming this is why Mike shared this graphic, because Fletcher to left off) much at all... it's an unfair punishment in the ultimate team sport, and it's a singular player getting in... not a unit.

Joe Thomas has played for one of the only franchises that's considered to be worse than ours on the field over the last 30 years.
Zach Thomas on the Dolphins and the late 90's, early 2000's dolphins aren't exactly a defensive unit people feared. There was a LOT of ups and downs in their rankings.
Darrelle Revis led defense only cracked the top 10, 3 times in his career.
Andre Johnson was on some REALLY bad offensive teams in Houston.

JJ Watt played on some really bad teams but he's likely a first ballot HOF
Calvin Johnson
Barry Sanders


Stats aren't the 'only' thing for HOF voting, but it's a very VERY good indicator, because a lot of times there are really REALLY good defensive players that are lost in bad defenses and on bad teams. Fletch was on some bad football teams that had little help behind him at times, and almost NO help in front of him.

 

[Boone]

Hall of Fame should not consider team success (i'm assuming this is why Mike shared this graphic, because Fletcher to left off) much at all... it's an unfair punishment in the ultimate team sport, and it's a singular player getting in... not a unit.

I think you are mostly right. But in the case of QBs I think the QB absolutely impacts (maybe even drives) team success and there are legitimate reasons why some QBs may have had HOF level talent, but not had a lot of team success. I'll hold up Aaron Rodgers as an example. Guy is arrogant, probably nearly uncoachable (because he's Aaron Rodgers and knows more than any coach possibly could) and he's as much a reason why the Packers have 1 Super Bowl appearance during his career. Of course, he will be a HOFer. But in the case of QBs, I don't think you can easily separate those two things.

London is definitely a HOFer. The unfortunate thing is, loud, brash, self-promoters like Ray Lewis always seem to get more attention and benefit of the doubt when it comes to the HOF. Art Monk is the perfect example of that. And apparently 'character' doesn't come into play either.

 

[SilentThreat]

I think you are mostly right. But in the case of QBs I think the QB absolutely impacts (maybe even drives) team success and there are legitimate reasons why some QBs may have had HOF level talent, but not had a lot of team success. I'll hold up Aaron Rodgers as an example. Guy is arrogant, probably nearly uncoachable (because he's Aaron Rodgers and knows more than any coach possibly could) and he's as much a reason why the Packers have 1 Super Bowl appearance during his career. Of course, he will be a HOFer. But in the case of QBs, I don't think you can easily separate those two things.

London is definitely a HOFer. The unfortunate thing is, loud, brash, self-promoters like Ray Lewis always seem to get more attention and benefit of the doubt when it comes to the HOF. Art Monk is the perfect example of that. And apparently 'character' doesn't come into play either.

1000% fair. QB is different, I should have thrown that in there. QB touches the ball on every play. They control the offense on every play.

 

[Boone]

I guess the only point is, the HOF probably SHOULD take team success into account with QBs but they typically don't. Yet, it seems to matter with other positions where the player really can't impact team success to any large degree. Like with a lot of things, NFL doesn't always make sense.

 

[DieselPwr44]

I guess the only point is, the HOF probably SHOULD take team success into account with QBs but they typically don't. Yet, it seems to matter with other positions where the player really can't impact team success to any large degree. Like with a lot of things, NFL doesn't always make sense.

Kind of like Joe Jacoby's omission.
He was a vital part of four Superbowl runs,with three rings to his credit, on one of the best Olines in League history but it means absolutely zero to the HOF committe and it's voters.
Yet they'll vote in Jimbo Covert,who played in the same era as Jacoby but with a lesser resume than Joe.

All in all, it just grows the conspiracy theory that the league hated the Redskins overall.

 

[Bulldog]

Looking at the Bengals game today.

After the 2019 season Cincinnati and Washington were the two worst teams in the league.

Now, three years later the Bengals have an innovative coach, franchise quarterback, all pro receiver, good backs and a consistent defense.

Why do we need a clean house?

Compare and contrast our circumstances and choices made vis a vis the Bengals.

The improvements here seem glacial and painfully slow, where they do occur.

 

[Om]

Give us the #1 pick in a year a Joe Burrow comes out and a couple years to let him develop and we can make that comparison meaningfully.

 

[DieselPwr44]

They could've chose Herbert over Young......

But with the OC staff here, he'd have probably gotten ruined.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

They could've chose Herbert over Young......

But with the OC staff here, he'd have probably gotten ruined.

Sure if we had a crystal ball. But at the time, Young was easily the #2 pick. Also, Tua was selected before Herbert as most had him rated over Herbert. With hindsight, a perfect team could be drafted every year.

Your point about the coaches is 100% correct. It’s why I want the new owner to get a new staff and let them build from there.

 

[DieselPwr44]

Sure if we had a crystal ball. But at the time, Young was easily the #2 pick. Also, Tua was selected before Herbert as most had him rated over Herbert. With hindsight, a perfect team could be drafted every year.

Your point about the coaches is 100% correct. It’s why I want the new owner to get a new staff and let them build from there.

I'm just remembering how we debated here about taking Young or trying to trade down a few spots and take a QB or stay put and take a QB.
That's all...

 

[Kel Varnsen]

I'm just remembering how we debated here about taking Young or trying to trade down a few spots and take a QB or stay put and take a QB.
That's all...

That’s fair. It’s hard to say what would have happened had they been able to trade down, but had they done that, you are correct they could have had him.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

its just about team success, its about making the team better.

London was a decent MLB, but I dont think he was a hall of fame guy, he made a ton of tackles way down the field, we had this argument back then as well, stats are a good indicator but you have to have context. you have to make the team better by your presence. a guy like JJ watt might not have won a lot early on but he made that defence so much better by simply being there. better than it should have been. Fletch was a solid tackler, had very good speed, was solid all around and in coverage but he was never really making game changing plays when it mattered. very good? yes, HOF no, but then I wouldnt have put Zach thomas there either

 

[Boone]

Well, there's a reason why there's always controversy around HOF entry. It's complicated and a player's career can be looked at through multiple filters and from multiple vantage points.