a 3rd next year and a 5th this year? are you joking?

One of many experimental iterations ...

Om

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In my case, I went with guys I watched play enough to have an informed opinion about, I guess. I did see Hermeling play--he was the LT on the first pro team I ever followed. But I don't recall him standing out on that OL ... or getting a lot of attention from other fans and the press. Me, I was a Len Hauss guy. But I was also still in a bowl haircut so what the hell did I know. Mostly I think I watched the ball back then. OL guys were invisible unless they fucked up. "Holding, number 74 ... ".

Edwards has to be in the conversation, I agree, in the same way Sammy Baugh has to be in any conversation about Redskins QB's. It's just harder to have a personal feeling about how Edwards fits into the pantheon based solely on the accounts of others--particularly given it was a different NFL universe then. Perhaps the informal poll would have been better labeled "modern era" or "guys you saw play" or whatever.
 

Boone

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Yeah ... totally get it. Unfortunately, there was barely team video back then, much less individual highlights which really weren’t routinely done until the 50’s and 60’s and evening then only with skill position guys. It’s very hard to make the HOF as an OL. Edwards must’ve been something.
 

Bulldog

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I don’t think you can compare eras that are separated by 50 plus years.

In the 1970’s you look at Bob Griese and Roger Staubach and at the time these guys had ‘great’ stats for a run oriented league.

Today, Jameis Winston throws for 5,000 yards and the next year may be third string in New Orleans.

All that said line positions are even more difficult to evaluate. It’s more a smell test and I agree it is based on what you saw happen on the field.

So, I have no opinion on Edwards. Hermeling I did see and he was a solid performer. But there were some great tackles playing in the 1970’s like Art Shell and Rayfield Wright that were a level better.

In the Gibbs era I would say that Lachey was the best LT because he was able to block Lawrence Taylor and guys like Seth Joyner one on one. Unfortunately Jim didn’t play long enough in the NFL to gain the overall lasting recognition.

Jacoby was a fine player at LT and performed at the highest level in the playoffs and Super Bowl. His Achilles heel was trying to block Taylor and the Giants DL in the mid to late 1980’s. Those were some rough games.

But I would rank him #1 if you take longevity and durability into the equation.

Samuels and Williams suffer from some of the same context issues, namely that they performed in relatively few high leverage games as Redskins. There were no playoff or Super Bowl defining moments.

That said, Samuels was the Redskins best OL and regarded as one of the top 3-4 players in the league in his prime at LT. On a lot of NFL teams with fewer recognizable candidates Samuels may have rated #1 based on his consistency and the fact the Redskins had rushers in Davis and Portis that set the team rushing record during Chris’ time with the team.

Williams was also a high pick that delivered on his talent but played in few memorable games. He was also an inconsistent presence due to drug suspensions and missing the key run in 2016 when the team was looking to make back to back playoff appearances. The fact he was a team captain at the time was definitely bad optics.

Again at the end of the day when considering performance, longevity and leadership I have to go with Jacoby.
 

Boone

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I don’t think you can compare eras that are separated by 50 plus years.
Of course you can't - that's my entire point :) But that's exactly what we are doing in this thread. Offensive lineman today are huge by comparison to guys playing those positions in the 1930's. Not to go all Six Million Dollar Man on you, but they're stronger, faster, 'better'... for all the reasons I mentioned earlier and some I didn't (such as the 'science' of football which didn't exist in earlier days).

But we are really missing the boat discounting earlier players. Honestly - I'm kind of shocked I'm the only one preaching this amongst a group of lifeling Redskins fans. Why have a HOF at all, you know, because modern athletes are 'so much better'...

You have to judge WITHIN eras. Look how long Turk Edwards was a starter - damn near held down his position for the first decade of Redskins football, beginning in Boston, and then in DC. He dominated at the college and pro level. He's absolutely in the top 5 of all time for this team if not #1. When we get another OT into the Pro Football HOF, update me in this thread...lol.
 

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How are you guys choosing anyone over a HOFer?? That’s just ‘recency’ bias. Obviously I’m a huge fan of Jacoby, Lachey, all the guys mentioned. But were they all time greats? Edwards is a consensus all time great - just sayin...
I hear ya Boone but the problem with your question is the implication that HOF status is necessarily reflective of greatness. Lachey and Jacoby should have been in long ago. Edwards belongs on any GOAT list for the Redskins tackle position but for me Lachey gets it based on his monster play against the arguably best pass rusher of all time.
 

Rymanofthenorth

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Lachey was the best one hands down, he played against LT and was the only LT who LT said gave him problems. I loved Jacoby too but he was more of a solid forever guy than a truly all world player. lachey got hurt or he would be HOF no doubt.

but Boone has a point, you gotta put guys in context, which means in his era which was when the truly great pass rushers were just coming in, like LT reggie, doleman, derrick thomas, etal, lachey was probably the best
 

CounterTrey

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Lachey was the best one hands down, he played against LT and was the only LT who LT said gave him problems. I loved Jacoby too but he was more of a solid forever guy than a truly all world player. lachey got hurt or he would be HOF no doubt.

but Boone has a point, you gotta put guys in context, which means in his era which was when the truly great pass rushers were just coming in, like LT reggie, doleman, derrick thomas, etal, lachey was probably the best
Yea this sucks....if Terrell Davis deserves a gold jacket so does Lachey.
 

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I really can’t think of football played with leather helmets as as anything but a different sport.
 

DudeRedskin

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He was worth more the middle of last season when competing teams might have been desperate. Not now though. He has been out of football for a year, he's 31, and he hasn't played a full season since 2013. I'm fine with the 5th and 3rd. Addition by subtraction is a real thing.
This. It would've behooved the Bruce to deal him last season BUUUT, since that didn't happen best to move on. I think this was probably the best we could've done at this point. As much as I HATE to lose a solid probowl LT I like the loss of distractions better. Come on Saddiq! Step up young man!
 

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Dan Henning. He was the real all-pro.
 

fansince62

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I don't understand your post Al?
I was reading some article about greatest coaches some place - the race for greatest was Belicheck, Gibbs, Walsh. Belicheck mentioned that Gibbs always had a comparatively simple offense but that the same play could be run from different formations which complicated things greatly for the defense in terms of a 1:1 read. This expanded to a comment that a key aspect of the unpredictability was that from the same formation Henning was hugely successful at implementing different blocking schemes AFTER a play had actually been snapped. So, I'm not comunicating the details to the nth degree...but the comment was made that Henning was a great o-line coach who took his schemes to multiple SBs (with multiple teams). Like most of us (I assume) I had always thought the o-line was Buge's brainchild.

Yea, the thread is about LTs. I'm thinking the brainchilds's were the coaches. Interedsting idea - would there have been a Hogs without the coaches who graced our sideline?
 

fansince62

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Of course you can't - that's my entire point :) But that's exactly what we are doing in this thread. Offensive lineman today are huge by comparison to guys playing those positions in the 1930's. Not to go all Six Million Dollar Man on you, but they're stronger, faster, 'better'... for all the reasons I mentioned earlier and some I didn't (such as the 'science' of football which didn't exist in earlier days).

But we are really missing the boat discounting earlier players. Honestly - I'm kind of shocked I'm the only one preaching this amongst a group of lifeling Redskins fans. Why have a HOF at all, you know, because modern athletes are 'so much better'...

You have to judge WITHIN eras. Look how long Turk Edwards was a starter - damn near held down his position for the first decade of Redskins football, beginning in Boston, and then in DC. He dominated at the college and pro level. He's absolutely in the top 5 of all time for this team if not #1. When we get another OT into the Pro Football HOF, update me in this thread...lol.
So Boone...I lean in your direction. And I have a question: will today's players we think are HOFers also be non-candidates in 10/5 years for the same reasons? The NFL 100 Year Greatest dog any pony had room for the first wave as well as the second, third and on. It was great hearing Belicheck, after studying film, saying stuff like "this guy would be great in any age."
 

DudeRedskin

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Man, I gotta spend more time reading through these threads. This sucker was knock down drag out, hammer and tongs for a minute! Good stuff fellas! That said, to reply to Om's top five I have nothing to add. Pretty much nailed it. I remember when we picked up Lachey and couldn't help thinking it was an embarrassment of riches. Here we had an offense that was lethal in it's efficiency, a defense that would maul you, coached by one of the foremost practitoners of the time, and all of a sudden we add what many considered to be the best LT in the game? Hahahaha...I do so hope the team somehow makes those awesomely arrogant feelings return someday. And now I will step aside so everyone can resume breaking bottles over each other's heads.

In love of course...
 
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Boone

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So Boone...I lean in your direction. And I have a question: will today's players we think are HOFers also be non-candidates in 10/5 years for the same reasons? The NFL 100 Year Greatest dog any pony had room for the first wave as well as the second, third and on. It was great hearing Belicheck, after studying film, saying stuff like "this guy would be great in any age."
I don't think so Al - because while I think we'll continue to see athletes improve (both physically and with advances in the science of the sport), I think there is a ceiling we are approaching. I also don't think you'll see the game change as dramatically going forward as it did during the first 100 years of football.
 

DudeRedskin

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I think there is a ceiling we are approaching. I also don't think you'll see the game change as dramatically going forward as it did during the first 100 years of football.
How so brother, if I may ask?
 

Rymanofthenorth

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I agree with boone on the ceiling, there are human limits. look at the olympics. the thing is there are limits to strength and speed simply due to bone densiity and tendons etc. a man now who rains his whole life and has nutrition is worlds ahead of a guy in the early 1900's but even so we are fast approaching the ceiling that humans can physically meet. even look at top end speed, the fastest men on the planet run 40 yards in about 4.19 and that speed was pretty much Darryl Green and deoin sanders in the 90s, even no very few guys even get to that level because that level is pretty much the human limit.

strength, you saw guys like larry allen in the 90s, wont be much stronger than he was, its just not humanly possible
 

ntotoro

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I think today’s athletes are approaching if not at the physical limits without severe chemical interaction... which also contributes to joint and ligament damage. Steroids and HGH can weaken joints and ligaments, which gets people in a vicious cycle because they’re also used to grow physical muscle. Naturally, we’re getting to the point that we’re already seeing athletes on the field whose own bodies cant support the amount of muscle they’re attempting to grow. Joints and ligaments are popping at a rate I don’t think i remember seeing, not to mention muscle tears and pulls.
 

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