2011 College Football Thread

[Ax]

This is too far, Ax. The current players knew nothing and were in no way involved. No reason to penalize them. Get the folks who knew and did nothing, then leave it alone.

That's why I said they should be allowed to finish the season. No reason to punish these players. I thought that naturally implied that after the season the players could then seek transfers, with any and all relocation/transfer costs paid by PSU.

Then, you shut it down. If some of the rumors coming out now prove true, this rabbit hole is gonna lead to an underground that is ugly, and deep. Ferreting out all the participants isn't gonna be easy. The stiffer the punishment, the better chance you have of getting all those involved to start turning on each other, IMO.

 

[Burgundy Burner]

I read it BB, but I too stand by posts.

Now, if what we think we know so far turns out to be false, then there's a chance they got it wrong.

But as we know it right now, Paterno allowed a child predator to remain active, knowing, at the very least, that he was a weird mother****er who liked little boys. I don't know how it could be seen any other way. There will be more heads rolling in the coming weeks and months. Paterno's is a good, and necessary start.

I don't wish to put words in your mouth, so I'll ask.
Do you also find McGutless innocent in this?

What I believe in is letting the justice system decide this case and not the court of public opinion. Look at your second sentence - just look at it.

Do I believe Sandusky is innocent? No. Do I believe anyone else is innocent? I don't know and that is an honest answer. No one can know until a jury has rendered a verdict or verdicts.

Did Coach Paterno go about reporting the alleged incident in the correct manner? Yes. That is all we know of his "involvement" - nothing more, nothing less. Is there a chance he is guilty of a coverup or protecting Sandusky? Sure, but we don't know if this is really the case. Time will tell, but if Paterno did everything in the correct manner, he reserves the right to sue for damages, defamation, etc.

 

[Neophyte]

The problem with that BB is that Paterno really had no superior at PSU. He ran the place. It might not have looked like it on paper but he was the power there so it was on him to do something about it. If it was covered up, that happened with his knowledge.

 

[Sarge]

Is there a chance he is guilty of a coverup or protecting Sandusky? Sure, but we don't know if this is really the case. Time will tell, but if Paterno did everything in the correct manner, he reserves the right to sue for damages, defamation, etc.

He'll be lucky to stay out of jail

 

[Ax]

All good and true points, BB.

I just feel that with all the time that has passed already, if they're gonna err, they should err on the overreact side, instead of under react. There has already been too much under reacting here.

We have grand jury testimony from McGutless, that after doing NOTHING upon discovery of a child being raped, he called his Daddy, who did nothing, then waited until the next day to tell Paterno, who did nothing but wait ANOTHER day before passing it forward. Each person apparently washing their hands of the ordeal ASAP.

This, in and of itself, warrants immediate dismissal, pending an investigation, IMO. Jo-Pa, the one man with the pull to essentially override any and all jurisdictional BS to take immediate action, failed to do so.

His grand jury testimony will have to completely contradict McGutless, or he will be admitting culpability, which will never happen.

Everyone within arm reach of this mess should at the very least be put on administrative leave, pending investigation.

It is the equivalent to, "Kill'em All, Let God Sort'em Out."

The ONLY victims here, are the kids, and to a much lesser degree, the current players. Everybody else will suffer from their own self inflicted wounds.

 

[Burgundy Burner]

With all due respect gentlemen, I am going to assume that none of you are in the field of education or have ever been a teacher. Let me spell this out for you - and please don't take this as "talking down" to you. That is not my intent.

I'll start with a disclaimer. I am a teacher - fully trained, formally educated, and experienced at the high school level and adult education. I have seen first hand what something like this will do to an entire institution. I can't elaborate for obvious reasons, but that is the disclaimer here.

Sexual child abuse is a harsh reality in society. If we know of a neighbor, a friend, a relative or any other person who is committing such acts, we are obligated to report it to the authorities. No one would dispute that we should take such action(s).

In an educational institution (elementary, high school, college), it is a bit different. Most systems have a set of rules and procedures that must be followed. In other words, a teacher (or teachers) should go to the principal first and the principal is obligated to contact the authorities first and then the superintendent. I can't speak for Pennsylvania State University, but they probably have a similar set of rules and procedures. The "principal" in this case is the university president. The superintendent is the equivalent of the Board of Trustees. See where I am going with this?

Ultimately, the buck stops with the BOT and they are in cya mode - nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't matter if we think Coach Paterno "ran things" at Penn St or not. If he simply followed a set of rules and procedures, then he is in the clear. If not, then he is in trouble. The same goes for the young assistant.

You may not like that kind of organizational structure, but that is how it's done at any educational institution.

One thing is certain. The actions of one individual could destroy or seriously impact the lives of hundreds.

 

[Goaldeje]

BB, I understand chain of command, particularly as it relates to teaching, but I think my problem is simply that JoePa followed chain of command, only. He did not do enough, in other words. Once he saw that the President and/or BOT were either sitting on it, or ignoring him or whatever, he had an ethical and moral responsibility to do something. Anything, really.

For the non-actions of his superiors, the program can not be harshly punished enough. But JoePa, from a moral/ethical POV had to do something once he saw his actions were falling on deaf ears.

 

[Ax]

With all due respect gentlemen, I am going to assume that none of you are in the field of education or have ever been a teacher. Let me spell this out for you - and please don't take this as "talking down" to you. That is not my intent.

Speaking for myself, while we have very different views on this, I have not been offended, or felt talked down to, by you in this matter. I hope, in return, that you have taken any of my expressed thoughts personally, for it is not my intent, either.

I'll start with a disclaimer. I am a teacher - fully trained, formally educated, and experienced at the high school level and adult education. I have seen first hand what something like this will do to an entire institution. I can't elaborate for obvious reasons, but that is the disclaimer here.

Sexual child abuse is a harsh reality in society. If we know of a neighbor, a friend, a relative or any other person who is committing such acts, we are obligated to report it to the authorities. No one would dispute that we should take such action(s).

In an educational institution (elementary, high school, college), it is a bit different. Most systems have a set of rules and procedures that must be followed. In other words, a teacher (or teachers) should go to the principal first and the principal is obligated to contact the authorities first and then the superintendent. I can't speak for Pennsylvania State University, but they probably have a similar set of rules and procedures. The "principal" in this case is the university president. The superintendent is the equivalent of the Board of Trustees. See where I am going with this?

Ultimately, the buck stops with the BOT and they are in cya mode - nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't matter if we think Coach Paterno "ran things" at Penn St or not. If he simply followed a set of rules and procedures, then he is in the clear. If not, then he is in trouble. The same goes for the young assistant.

You may not like that kind of organizational structure, but that is how it's done at any educational institution.

One thing is certain. The actions of one individual could destroy or seriously impact the lives of hundreds.

You're approaching this from a strictly legal sense. I think circumstances warrant ignoring the rules.

In a legal sense, Mr. McGutless would have been breaking the law if he walked up to the rapist and beat him to within an inch of his life. But, it was the right thing to do. And if I sat on the jury at his trial for the assault of this rapist, he would walk free. As he should.

This isn't teenage boy won't stop pinching teenage girl on the booby.

This predator was allowed to indulge in his fancy with the coach, AD, University police, child services, and God knows who else having at least the minimum knowledge that rapist had no business being on the street.

Someone's job, or a school's mostly self serving chain of command protocols are trumped by the raping of children. It's a miniscule price to pay, IMO.

 

[Sarge]

With all due respect gentlemen, I am going to assume that none of you are in the field of education or have ever been a teacher. Let me spell this out for you - and please don't take this as "talking down" to you. That is not my intent.

I'll start with a disclaimer. I am a teacher - fully trained, formally educated, and experienced at the high school level and adult education. I have seen first hand what something like this will do to an entire institution. I can't elaborate for obvious reasons, but that is the disclaimer here.

Sexual child abuse is a harsh reality in society. If we know of a neighbor, a friend, a relative or any other person who is committing such acts, we are obligated to report it to the authorities. No one would dispute that we should take such action(s).

In an educational institution (elementary, high school, college), it is a bit different. Most systems have a set of rules and procedures that must be followed. In other words, a teacher (or teachers) should go to the principal first and the principal is obligated to contact the authorities first and then the superintendent. I can't speak for Pennsylvania State University, but they probably have a similar set of rules and procedures. The "principal" in this case is the university president. The superintendent is the equivalent of the Board of Trustees. See where I am going with this?

Ultimately, the buck stops with the BOT and they are in cya mode - nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't matter if we think Coach Paterno "ran things" at Penn St or not. If he simply followed a set of rules and procedures, then he is in the clear. If not, then he is in trouble. The same goes for the young assistant.

You may not like that kind of organizational structure, but that is how it's done at any educational institution.

One thing is certain. The actions of one individual could destroy or seriously impact the lives of hundreds.

I'm sorry, but no one's school chain of command trumps the law. Now,while I can see reporting to your superiors first and giving them a chance to go to the law, you have at least a moral, if not legal obligation to follow up on something like this. This is where JoePa ****ed up

And honestly, the guy that saw this going on and didn't intercede should just go ahead and kill himself. What a ball-less, disgusting waste of oxygen

 

[Burgundy Burner]

You're approaching this from a strictly legal sense. I think circumstances warrant ignoring the rules.

Someone's job, or a school's mostly self serving chain of command protocols are trumped by the raping of children. It's a miniscule price to pay, IMO.

The only way this can be approached is from the legalities. You may see the rules and procedures as "self serving", but they are there for specific reasons.

To abtract this point a bit further, the leadership at an institution of learning needs to follow the rules in orderly fashion. For example, if a child comes to school and there are signs of physical abuse, the teacher is obligated to tell the principal immediately. At that juncture, and this depends on the seriousness of the alleged abuse, the principal may decide to bring in the school nurse and psychologist (in house or one within the school division). Could it be something as simple as a fight on school grounds just prior to opening bell? Could it be a bully on the way to school? Could it be abuse at the hands of a neighbor or parent? The answer will depend on if the authorities are contacted or if it is handled solely by that institution.

I'm sorry, but no one's school chain of command trumps the law. Now,while I can see reporting to your superiors first and giving them a chance to go to the law, you have at least a moral, if not legal obligation to follow up on something like this. This is where JoePa ****ed up

We can argue this all day, but if Coach Paterno followed the established rules and regulations, then he is in the clear. A judge will want to know if those rules were followed. If so, then Paterno will be in the clear. If not, he will be charged and held accountable. Any judge in any ahild abuse case that could involve an institution of learning will want to know if those procedures were fully utilized. I understand that you may not like it, but that is how it works.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

McQueary placed on administrative leave, and told the players "he was done."

 

[Elephant]

Not that this story has no relevance, but would you guys mind if we got back to the game of football?

With Alabama still sitting in the BCS #3 spot, Stanford has to come out and take care of business against Oregon tomorrow if they have a shot at the BCS Championship game. OSU still has to play OK in 2 weeks, but after Oregon Stanford should win out.

If both OSU and Stanford win out, it will be interesting to see how things turn out. They both have big games against top 10 opponents left on the schedule, but the other 2 games they play are against unranked teams. While Cal is sure to give Stanford problems, the Cards should win handily. And while Notre Dame is not ranked, they aren't that far out of the top 25. OSU plays games against Texas Tech and Iowa State beside their OK matchup. If both teams win outright, it will be interesting to see where they stand in the BCS picture.

I just can't see Alabama holding on to the #3 slot if they win out and both OSU and Stanford win out. Alabama only plays 1 team worth mentioning the next 3 games, Auburn and they are ranked 20.

I only mention all this because I would love to see Andrew Luck and that high-powered offense play the LSU Tigers and their vaunted defense. I think this is really the matchup all, or at least most, College Football fans want to see.

 

[Sarge]

We can argue this all day, but if Coach Paterno followed the established rules and regulations, then he is in the clear. A judge will want to know if those rules were followed. If so, then Paterno will be in the clear. If not, he will be charged and held accountable. Any judge in any ahild abuse case that could involve an institution of learning will want to know if those procedures were fully utilized. I understand that you may not like it, but that is how it works.

A judge will care less if school rules were followed. School rules don't mean jack in this case, and in this episode they appear to be nothing more than something to hide behind.

If that is all Paterno did, "Oh, I reported it" then he is a coward. And so is anyone else that would follow that tact. Anything other than contacting the law is despicable

 

[Burgundy Burner]

A judge will care less if school rules were followed. School rules don't mean jack in this case, and in this episode they appear to be nothing more than something to hide behind.

If you can cite a specific case where a judge has cared less for such rules, then feel free to do so.

If "school rules don't mean jack in this case", then all institutions of learning should ditch any and all procedures when dealing with potential child abuse cases.

Something to think about Sarge and think about it carefully. Who writes those rules and procedures for educational institutions? Who puts the legal procdures on paper? Think about it.

 

[Neophyte]

Love me some Hoos, winning a tough one on the road at FSU! Bring on the Hokies.

 

[Burgundy Burner]

Love me some Hoos, winning a tough one on the road at FSU! Bring on the Hokies.

That was sweet. So sweet.

 

[Elephant]

Love me some Hoos, winning a tough one on the road at FSU! Bring on the Hokies.

Boooooooooooooooo!

 

[Boone]

Really felt like no matter what, the Hoos were going to get screwed out of a comeback win there - nice to see them prevail. What a game it'll be against Va Tech now. Wow.

 

[Burgundy Burner]

Brutal weekend for highly ranked teams. No. 2 goes down. No. 4 takes a hit. No. 5 took an RG3 missile attack. No. 7 crashed. Others who lost were ranked 17, 22, and 23.

The best was No. 23 losing to Virginia. A measure of justice was rendered at the end of that game. It felt like USA/USSR in 1972 all over again.

Love ya El, but that is my alma mater.

 

[servumtuum]

I live less than a mile and a half from Carter-Finley stadium where North Carolina State whipped up on #7 Clemson. I climbed a hill to get at the same level as the stadium and could hear the cheering from there-the game aftermath tied up traffic in the neighborhood for a while. Amazing performance by NCSU actually.