Mike Wise: Teammates to Albert Haynesworth: You should be at Redskins Park

Al, help me out here.

In one post you conclude "Shanahan/Allen and company don't have the savvy to deal with their first major challenge," ... and in response to my reply to that shortly thereafter, you conclude "this will get worked out. watch. the Skins have already laid the groundwork."

Perhaps if you hold the target still I can craft a response you will find less malicious.

Om said:

Al, help me out here.

In one post you conclude "Shanahan/Allen and company don't have the savvy to deal with their first major challenge," ... and in response to my reply to that shortly thereafter, you conclude "this will get worked out. watch. the Skins have already laid the groundwork."

Perhaps if you hold the target still I can craft a response you will find less malicious.

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you are cut and pasting out of context: the first statement was the punchline to a conditional: if the situation isn't resolved here are two conclusions I can draw.....

Lanky Livingston said:

The guys in the locker room are guys just like us. I bet their opinions span the spectrum, just like ours do. But the more AH plays the part of petulant child, its human nature for the other guys on the team who ARE there, who are battling for spots even though they're very talented or drafted high, are going to get pissed off.

And Daniels rarely calls out another player, from what I have seen. I have also seen that Daniels is regarded highly, and generally accepted as a locker room leader. If he starts talking about Haynesworth, and questioning his decisions, I think there is a very good chance what he is saying reflects at least the majority of what is being said behind closed doors.

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1) that's a stretch. my guess is more that most don't care - they are preoccupied with their own situations/workouts/learning and aren't going to waste cycles worrying about Albert Haynesworth....."out of sight..out of mind". either way, I don't know any more than you do.

2) What about the larger principle? Don't go public. Either it applies in all situations when it comes to players or it doesn't. Does anyone seriously believe that this has escalated to the point where going public is needed? I don't. why the double standard? Cmon now...these players should know better: take care of your own business and let the rest fall in place. are daniels et al going to criticize McIntosh for his early hold-outs? or is this a selective process? see the problem?

This will come to a head at the first mandatory workouts - that is built into the equation by the way the contract is set up. AH knows this. The Skins know this. Until then, why worsen the situation? Guarantee you that is exactly what Shanahan/Allen (and Haslet) are thinking. They want a positive resolution to this. They can't do much until AH is physically there. That's when the cards will begin to be laid on the table. think they don't already have a plan in place? I bet they do. Their goal ought to be turn AH around - the team benefits. we will see the strategy play out and its success/failure soon enough.

fansince62 said:

1)
This will come to a head at the first mandatory workouts - that is built into the equation by the way the contract is set up. AH knows this. The Skins know this. Until then, why worsen the situation? Guarantee you that is exactly what Shanahan/Allen (and Haslet) are thinking. They want a positive resolution to this. They can't do much until AH is physically there. That's when the cards will begin to be laid on the table. think they don't already have a plan in place? I bet they do. Their goal ought to be turn AH around - the team benefits. we will see the strategy play out and its success/failure soon enough.

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Fansince62, this paragraph reflects fairly closely my take on the situation-Al's behavior is provoking quite a bit of emotional response that, in my view, has more to do with our individual assessment of his behavior in relation to an idealized norm than its actual potential effect, or lack of effect, on the final outcome of where he may or may not fit into a team defense strategy. The various elements, his contract, the expectations of the coaching staff and players, perceptions of attitude and so forth will work themselves out within the framework of the "plan", as you put it, that Allen/Shanahan have in mind as a response to the current situation.

One point you have made that I might question, however, is the extent to which "leadership capabilities" of Shanahan, Allen, and I would include Haslett in this, can be accurately measured by how well Al is "molded" into the image of a NT and cooperative "team-oriented player" that the coaching staff may have in mind. The parameters of leadership are usually contextual and situationally determined. I don't think a "one size fits all" can be applied here, at least partly because of the almost surreal position of professional athletes-wealth, continual adulation and ego-stroking all of which mitigate against attempting to be heavy-handed unless absolutely mandatory. There is, of course, a lot of individual variation involved here also, but people who have had the success of Allen and Shanahan have been through this enough times to have learned to at least some extent what is likely to work and what isn't. If Allen/Shanahan are able to turn Al into even a slight upgrade of what he was last season-and he most definitely was a force, even at only, say, 65%-then I would count that as a success. However, even if the outcome is Haynesworth removal from the team, I would not count that as a negative in assessing the leadership capabilities of the Redskins coaching staff; there are too many variables outside their control.

I really appreciate your posts, BTW, this thread has been fascinating to read and your, shall we say "provocative?", posts have spurred some delightful-and insightful-responses.

here is cooleys take on it (and some other things):

"He doesn't have to be here," Chris Cooley said, during an appearance on DC101's Elliot in the Morning. "And when the season starts, if he shows up and he's playing, no one's gonna give a damn what he did [in May]. Obviously he's gonna have to play for us. I mean, there's no way around it.

"Nowadays in football, you make this huge deal about offseason workouts," Cooley continued. "I mean, I'm sure he's working. He's been a pro for a long time, he knows what it takes. It's not the choice I would make. I mean, I'm here. In my case, I feel like this is what's best for me to play football next year, especially being hurt and coming back, this is what's best for me.

"Now in his case, maybe he hates it. Maybe he doesn't want to be around Redskins Park all year. Maybe him being away is what he needs right now so he can come back and be ready to play. I mean, everyone has something different. Again, it's not my choice, but it's whatever. I'm so tired of hearing about it, because he's still not doing anything wrong."

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rest of the article is here...

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcsportsbog/2010/05/cooley_is_tired_of_haynesworth.html

servumtuum said:

Fansince62, this paragraph reflects fairly closely my take on the situation-Al's behavior is provoking quite a bit of emotional response that, in my view, has more to do with our individual assessment of his behavior in relation to an idealized norm than its actual potential effect, or lack of effect, on the final outcome of where he may or may not fit into a team defense strategy. The various elements, his contract, the expectations of the coaching staff and players, perceptions of attitude and so forth will work themselves out within the framework of the "plan", as you put it, that Allen/Shanahan have in mind as a response to the current situation.

One point you have made that I might question, however, is the extent to which "leadership capabilities" of Shanahan, Allen, and I would include Haslett in this, can be accurately measured by how well Al is "molded" into the image of a NT and cooperative "team-oriented player" that the coaching staff may have in mind. The parameters of leadership are usually contextual and situationally determined. I don't think a "one size fits all" can be applied here, at least partly because of the almost surreal position of professional athletes-wealth, continual adulation and ego-stroking all of which mitigate against attempting to be heavy-handed unless absolutely mandatory. There is, of course, a lot of individual variation involved here also, but people who have had the success of Allen and Shanahan have been through this enough times to have learned to at least some extent what is likely to work and what isn't. If Allen/Shanahan are able to turn Al into even a slight upgrade of what he was last season-and he most definitely was a force, even at only, say, 65%-then I would count that as a success. However, even if the outcome is Haynesworth removal from the team, I would not count that as a negative in assessing the leadership capabilities of the Redskins coaching staff; there are too many variables outside their control.

I really appreciate your posts, BTW, this thread has been fascinating to read and your, shall we say "provocative?", posts have spurred some delightful-and insightful-responses.

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serv...

- point taken on leadership!

- we're all big boys and girls. yea...my "style" has an element of wise-guy about it. but I'm not attacking folks directly (hint, hint - another site) and hold everyone here in the highest regard. Om, for example, is a character I have admired/respected from a distance since the inception of that "other place"...same with Boone's Farm! ntoro, pravda...and anyone else I may have neglected to mention. now...poltical boards are another matter....

- thanks for the compliment...back at ya! well structured post - a pleasure to read.

- I wish we could cajole OldFan over here. I disagreed with 90% of what he posted....but talk about being creative and challenging!!!

so.....the fun part of all this for me (and I suspect others) is the fol: "Man...new staff.....heavy turnover......pretty lousy last year.......tough division...no way in H this season is going to end well. BUT.....new staff...heavy turnover....angry about lousy year.....challenging division....ADULTS ARE NOW IN CHARGE......quality QB.....something good could happen!" who knows?!!!

fansince62 said:

so you have read AH's contract?

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No need for me to see it. That is what the media is for. If there was anything in that piece of paper that qualified as a "stick" in the current situation Florio over at PFT would have noted and quoted it by now. Everyone currently agrees that right now, there is nothing the team can do with Albert but ask him to show up. In my world, that is all carrot and no stick.

Now, mandatory OTA's are another matter completely but then everyone who knows Albert says he will show for those.

Neophyte said:

No need for me to see it. That is what the media is for. If there was anything in that piece of paper that qualified as a "stick" in the current situation Florio over at PFT would have noted and quoted it by now. Everyone currently agrees that right now, there is nothing the team can do with Albert but ask him to show up. In my world, that is all carrot and no stick.

Now, mandatory OTA's are another matter completely but then everyone who knows Albert says he will show for those.

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so we have been in agreement all along!!

fansince62 said:

1) that's a stretch. my guess is more that most don't care - they are preoccupied with their own situations/workouts/learning and aren't going to waste cycles worrying about Albert Haynesworth....."out of sight..out of mind". either way, I don't know any more than you do.

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Not a stretch at all. Maybe if Haynesworth was "just another player," yeah. But he's not - he's the hundred million dollar man. He was handed a check for $21M last year; that's more than the majority of the players on the roster will make their entire careers most likely. You're telling me they have NO opinion about if he's there or not? Its human nature. Offices around the country are filled with scuttlebutt about who makes what, and whether or not they deserve it. Its somewhat ludicrous to imagine that most of the players have no opinion at all.

2) What about the larger principle? Don't go public. Either it applies in all situations when it comes to players or it doesn't. Does anyone seriously believe that this has escalated to the point where going public is needed? I don't. why the double standard? Cmon now...these players should know better: take care of your own business and let the rest fall in place. are daniels et al going to criticize McIntosh for his early hold-outs? or is this a selective process? see the problem?

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That was my point - generally Daniels doesn't go public. So the fact that he DID go public should make a statement all by itself, don't you think?

And comparing McIntosh to Haynesworth is (to borrow from Om) like comparing apples to kumquats. McIntosh is still on his rookie contract, has worked extremely hard every other year here, whether at practice or rehabbing from injury, and has been the subject of trade rumors and speculation that he won't fit in the new defense.

This will come to a head at the first mandatory workouts - that is built into the equation by the way the contract is set up. AH knows this. The Skins know this. Until then, why worsen the situation? Guarantee you that is exactly what Shanahan/Allen (and Haslet) are thinking. They want a positive resolution to this. They can't do much until AH is physically there. That's when the cards will begin to be laid on the table. think they don't already have a plan in place? I bet they do. Their goal ought to be turn AH around - the team benefits. we will see the strategy play out and its success/failure soon enough.

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Big Al has received the majority of his money already. What about manadatory workouts is in the contract that will make it come to a head? I believe I read that after he got the $21M bonus, his contract is now something like 3 or 4 years for $16M, a bargain-basement deal for a DT of his caliber.

Lanky Livingston said:

Not a stretch at all. Maybe if Haynesworth was "just another player," yeah. But he's not - he's the hundred million dollar man. He was handed a check for $21M last year; that's more than the majority of the players on the roster will make their entire careers most likely. You're telling me they have NO opinion about if he's there or not? Its human nature. Offices around the country are filled with scuttlebutt about who makes what, and whether or not they deserve it. Its somewhat ludicrous to imagine that most of the players have no opinion at all.



That was my point - generally Daniels doesn't go public. So the fact that he DID go public should make a statement all by itself, don't you think?

And comparing McIntosh to Haynesworth is (to borrow from Om) like comparing apples to kumquats. McIntosh is still on his rookie contract, has worked extremely hard every other year here, whether at practice or rehabbing from injury, and has been the subject of trade rumors and speculation that he won't fit in the new defense.



Big Al has received the majority of his money already. What about manadatory workouts is in the contract that will make it come to a head? I believe I read that after he got the $21M bonus, his contract is now something like 3 or 4 years for $16M, a bargain-basement deal for a DT of his caliber.

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1) I didn't say they didn't have an opinion. I was trying to suggest that perhaps the obession with other people's money that you are projecting is in fact not the primary psychology in play. Let's see here...what am I going to focus on: "how much money is Albert making? or......what do I have to do to make this team when the new sheriff is bringing in over 100 folks to compete. yup. Albert is making X% more than I am and that exceeds my threshhold by y dollars. I'm not worried about the competition - that's cake".

2) Haynesworth and McIntosh. You continue to miss the point. The issue was whether teammates voiced personal frustration and/or criticism publicly with a player who was not attending voluntary workouts - period. It's not abt McIntosh and all the qualifications you want to throw into the mix that make it nearly impossible to apply any general principle. Case specific rules are BS...IMO. They both missed voluntary workouts for reasons that were not of a force majeur nature. I know darn well what you are really saying - you approve of Rocky's motives and not Albert's. That's great! but it's not germane to the principle - should players publicly criticise another player or not? If so..please lay down your personal prejudices...errrr.....rules.....so that we can all know when appropriate sensitivities are being violated.

3) He has to show up for mandatory workouts. He has a contractual obligation. If he doesn't...it's up to the etam and the NFL where to go from there. That's the trigger.

4) You are making all sorts of ludicrous assumptions about money. Or more specifically, about one person who has a lot of money. As a general rule it's obviously belied by the evidence - look at all the other well paid players in the NFL who show up. So it boils down to what you believe is in AH's mind and emotions. And on this....I don't think you have a damn clue. If anything, it seems he's being petulant because he...for the moment....thinks he is being cast in a role that doesn't suit his talents. Yes money influences respective leverage in some respects...but even that is situationally dependent.

5) You fail to miss a key point: suppose AH were to "hold out". on what grounds would he do so? the usual...money? bahahahahahaha. because the team won't change its defensive scheme for him? maybe. but I'm not confident that would go in a direction to his benefit over the long haul. There are multiple players in this: the players, the coaching staff, the Skins FO, the NFL FO, the players association, AH, AH's agent, the legal department, the media, other teams........AH is not the lone individual with power. I have seen a system/power structure come down hard on an individual when it wants to. there are many ways of doing this ... quietly ..... forcefully ... sometimes cruelly.

look...I'm onboard with you in the sense that this is a distraction that is uncalled for with a new staff, his performance last season and his impact in the lockerroom. I'm not onboard with how much money he makes (more power to him) and I disagree that the team and the league have no power/leverage. If football is as complex as Om states...you can darn well imagine scenarios where pressure and purpose can be brought to bear. As always...it's about knowing the inner details of the system - something you and I don't know - achieving collaboration up and down the chain...and the will to deploy power against an individual. It's not a one way street with AH holding all the cards.

After reading and thinking about it for a while I think I'm generally on fansince62's side of the fence. The whole 3-4 thing in general perplexes me a bit. I don't have a problem with the 3-4 per se, our personnel juist doesn't seem ideally suited for it, nor is a wholesale change even necessary. This D has consistently been a top ten fixture over the years and last year for sure was the strong link of this team. Our O is able to put up 20 points a game and it's 8-8 at worst. I just don't get it, change for the sake of change isn't necessarily good and doing it the year after you brought in such a stalwart to anchor the middle seems like "cutting off your nose to spite your face" as previously used.

Lousy conditioning last year or not, AH has a legit beef.

CounterTrey said:

Lousy conditioning last year or not, AH has a legit beef.

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Maybe I'm old fashioned, but for paying the man $31 million, handing him a mop and asking him to clean up the crap in the john shouldn't be met with a single complaint.

Aston Gambino said:

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but for paying the man $31 million, handing him a mop and asking him to clean up the crap in the john shouldn't be met with a single complaint.

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Bravo !

Aston Gambino said:

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but for paying the man $31 million, handing him a mop and asking him to clean up the crap in the john shouldn't be met with a single complaint.

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Now that's a statement I can totally agree with.

Aston Gambino said:

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but for paying the man $31 million, handing him a mop and asking him to clean up the crap in the john shouldn't be met with a single complaint.

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yea....right. but the guy making just a paltry $2 mil a yr....that's OK! one man's riches is another man's poverty...is that it?

the Skins signed the dang contract. The Skins and the league negotiated an agreement with the players on mandatory and voluntary workouts. there's no grey area here. You want to set up some ridiculous standard that is based on how much money someone makes? That's a standard that...while attractive in some respects to folks leading the country these daze......is completely unenforcable upon closer inspection and which is actually more divisive if think about it. it's a silly argument. AH should be in camp because his teammates are there and it demonstrates commitment to a supposedly shared goal of winning a championship. how much money he makes - on absolute or relative terms - is irrelevant.

I don't infer the same motivation here that you seem to, fansince62. Fat Albert is, conspicuously, the only one not in attendance at the voluntary camps. However much he's getting paid isn't the issue-the fact that everybody else who's getting paid as a member of the Redskins is at the camps. I believe the sentiment expressed would be the same if he were making, say, $6 million/yr. I sense here the feeling that if everybody who is getting paid can show up then there is no acceptable reason why Al can't be there-the figure of $31 million was just used because that happens to be how much he's getting paid.

At least that's my read on it-I'm always open to being mistaken however.

Yes, he should be there. Even if he came to a middle ground with coach, where he worked out with the team for about 2 weeks when the offseason program began on March 16th. After the 2 week period he could have did his thing with his guy until April minicamp, and went back to his guy in between minicamps. I don't see burdensome it would have been to do both during the offseason, just to be around his teammates and new staff. I can't think of no other reason why he's not there other than he's being selfish.

servumtuum said:

I don't infer the same motivation here that you seem to, fansince62. Fat Albert is, conspicuously, the only one not in attendance at the voluntary camps. However much he's getting paid isn't the issue-the fact that everybody else who's getting paid as a member of the Redskins is at the camps. I believe the sentiment expressed would be the same if he were making, say, $6 million/yr. I sense here the feeling that if everybody who is getting paid can show up then there is no acceptable reason why Al can't be there-the figure of $31 million was just used because that happens to be how much he's getting paid.

At least that's my read on it-I'm always open to being mistaken however.

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hey serv...I would like for him to be there also. but he doesn't have to. that's the way ALL parties set this up.

btw...I disagree on the money part. that's been one of the core complaints. McIntosh didn't show until rookie camp...why the exemption?

separate matter is the players. I don't think most of them really care that much in the sense of letting it occupy much of their time. yes there was daniels. then again...there was Cooley's post. the manadatory workouts will start to clarify things. until then this is mountain/molehill stuff.

fansince62 said:

AH should be in camp because his teammates are there and it demonstrates commitment to a supposedly shared goal of winning a championship. how much money he makes - on absolute or relative terms - is irrelevant.

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By calling the money irrelevant, you're ignoring the 800 lb gorilla in the room. SHOULD it be irrelevant? Probably, in a perfect world. IS it irrelevant? Not a chance.

When you pay any player that kind of money you expect them to bring more to the table that game changing ability. So yes, it matters. Generally a QB is the highest paid offensive player and is expected to be more than just a guy who throws passes. More is expected of Albert as well.

You can always go back and question the wisdom of signing a guy, who we knew had some baggage, to that kind of deal. We should have KNOWN he was not comfortable being a team leader. So Vinny has stabbed at us from the grave on this acquisition. We clearly aren’t going to get any more from him than what he is contractually required to give us. That’s too bad, not only for the team but for his legacy as well. I’m not going to let it keep me up at night though.

In the end if Albert plays well this season all of this will quickly be forgotten. If the team doesn’t play well, particularly the defense, the fans and media are going to be all over him, and he’ll be as much to blame for not building any good will with the fans and his teammates as the team will be for having signed him in the first place.