Change of Thought: Let Orakpo Go

Not necessarily. The Ebil Dan Vader could be knowingly unloading soon-to-be worthless jerseys, in order to boost sales.
 
Elephant said:
You also suggested that those of us against the Orakpo signing should be against the Hall signing as well.
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Actually, that wasn't me.

Anyway, from what I can tell you seem to think we are in full rebuild mode, so signing any veterans to even moderate contracts is a waste of time and cap room.

I don't think we're that far off, which is probably why I don't have a problem spending (or even occasionally overspending) on veterans, particularly those who have played here before and we want to keep on the team.
 
Elephant said:
Not true. If we get him at the right price, you pull the trigger. What is the right price? I will admit I do not know the exact amount. But top 5 DE/OLB in this league is not the right price.
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Yeah, we shouldn't have to dance around a few specifics here:

- what is the actual NUMBER Orakpo is worth to you (not you specifically, Elephant, but anyone who wants to argue on this)? This kind of statement (at least not top5 money) is at least getting there.
- even the biggest 'Rak detractors would pay him a dollar a year for his services. Probably more than that, but how much more?
- even the biggest 'Rak supporters wouldn't pay him 120 million a year for his services. Probably less than that, but how much less?
- At least, we can start whittling it down to a range people would say, "OK" (if you're a detractor), and "No way" if you're generally a supporter.

I'd say people should try to ante up some numbers like that to make the discussion more meaningful. For me, I agree with Elephant here. I don't think top 5 DE/OLB money is the right price, because looking at his production, it hasn't added up, and I don't see the scheme (rush him more) or the personnel (better middle/better DBs) as being the issue keeping that from being the case. Now, I do feel that Haslett disagrees, so hopefully he's seeing something I'm not seeing.

My main problem is that I hear things from Haslett like - "He'll do everything you ask of him." Yes, more recently he did say they need to rush him more. So I hope that will help us see better results - and it may.

I think with the new cap money, we can expect to drive prices up potentially... and Orakpo will be a Redskin next year. As others have said - the key is guaranteed money. I was upset when I first heard the initial general reports of DHall's contract (4 years, 20 million), but the guaranteed money and the breakdown sounds a lot more palatable as long as the Redskins are clear with D Hall on what the future holds. I just feel like it's unlikely - if the Skins are being upfront and careful - that D Hall should finish that contract. But in the meantime, those are meaty numbers. Smart contract, I think, if it plays out that way. The Skins will always have to overpay a little right now for FA, which is why generally they need to build in the draft - but the D Hall contract seems like it's close to the ballpark now (probably still a little high though).
 
I say you pay Rak market value. If that's $10M per year, so be it. I believe he is that vital to our long term success.

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SkinsNumberOne said:
- what is the actual NUMBER Orakpo is worth to you (not you specifically, Elephant, but anyone who wants to argue on this)? This kind of statement (at least not top5 money) is at least getting there.
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If I could set the price I'd put it at 7.5 a year.

Not really willing to pay much more than that, but it's a little flexible. I could maybe go as high as 9... maybe... that's about where I start to say no...

That would be for a long term deal. I could absolutely deal with franchising him for one more year, even though that'd be higher pay.

Letting Orakpo go is not a decision I'd take lightly and I certainly wouldn't enjoy watching him pack his stuff and leave.

I guess it's the years... I'm terrified of throwing 11.5 million at him for 5 years and 2 years from now we're all talking about how he might never live up to his potential...
 
One question you could ask is whether a 3-13 football team can or should pay any one player $11M for next season?

This team is not close to being a contender with SF, Seattle and others.

For $11M the Redskins could sign 3 or 4 other players to fill need spots.

Taking that approach also reduces risk for the team in case the $11M man gets hurt.

Then you have nothing.

For a team like the Redskins we need to bring in a good cast of solid football players both in FA and the draft to put this team back on course.

We really can't afford to hand out max or franchise deals.
 
Bulldog's Twin said:
We really can't afford to hand out max or franchise deals.
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This, to me, is a ridiculous line of thought. We have a crap ton of cap space, and the FA pool just isn't that great. Sure, we could spend $11M on 3 mediocre players, but what good does that do? We hit on a draft pick, we should keep him around (IMO). The key is to find more hits in the draft and UDFA...and our draft picks are limited. Bring Orakpo back now, while we have the cap room. Its really the only option.
 
Bulldog's Twin said:
One question you could ask is whether a 3-13 football team can or should pay any one player $11M for next season?
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Yes.

This upcoming season, so far, there are 48 players that will cost their respective teams $11 million or more against the cap.

None of them are on the Redskins. The Redskins are one of only seven teams without an $11 million cap hit on the roster. Three of them had winning records. Four of them losing. There's no magic formula here.

This team is not close to being a contender with SF, Seattle and others.
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This team has a top ten offense. That alone makes them a contender in this crappy watered-down league. If you want to wait for the defense to catch up before signing anyone of quality, then suddenly your offensive players are the free agents needing to be re-signed and we start all over again.

For $11M the Redskins could sign 3 or 4 other players to fill need spots.
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They could sign 50 players. Big deal if none of them can rush the passer.

Taking that approach also reduces risk for the team in case the $11M man gets hurt.

Then you have nothing.
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You can't risk what you don't have. If you don't have a pass rusher you don't have to risk losing him. Of course, then you don't have much of a defense anyway so it doesn't really matter.

For a team like the Redskins we need to bring in a good cast of solid football players both in FA and the draft to put this team back on course.
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You can do that and franchise Orakpo. 25 other teams in the league, of all types of quality, have survived paying one or two or even three players top money. And most of them don't have the cap space we do. Franchising a guy is not the same as paying Haynesworth or Sanders or whoever an insane contract. It's basic stuff that almost every team does. Even teams that are rebuilding.

We really can't afford to hand out max or franchise deals.
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Of course we can. We actually have space. More than most teams. And todays elite money is tomorrow's average salary. Right now is the PERFECT time to franchise one of the few decent players we have on this team. We can afford to do it right now and if it doesn't work out it won't bite us too hard.

If we were right up against it I'd agree we'd have to suck it up and tighten our belts. But given that we have a lot of room to maneuver, it would be nuts to not actually, you know, maneuver, to keep our better players.
 
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Pretty relevant post by Keim on ESPN.com:

Survey says: Keep Brian Orakpo (sort of) - Washington Redskins Blog - ESPN

I will post some excerpts, but the whole article is worth a read:
It’s tough to remember a more polarizing Washington Redskins free agent than Brian Orakpo. Is he worth a big contract? Is he really that good? You can see that polarization when it came to our Redskins Nation poll: 81.4 percent of those responding said they wanted Orakpo back.

Ah, but there’s a catch. Of that 81.4 percent, only 45.4 percent were willing to pay him more than $9 million per season (including two who suggested the franchise tag, which is expected to be about $10.9 million).
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Back to the survey: So if it takes at least $9 million per year? Then the number of those who want him back drops to 37.3 percent.
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Redskin fans are now like the 'what me worry?' free spenders of pre- great recession times. You know, those who tried living the lifestyle of the rich and famous by burning through their homes equity. Bigger houses, more expensive cars, exotic vacations. Until the music stopped and no seats were left and only a very painful binge-spending hangover remained.

Now we are in a better spot. Circumstances have changed. Penalties have been absorbed and put behind us. We have lived and we have learned.

And now we have cap room and a lot of it.

The scars of our past are not completely healed yet. We don't want to experience that pain again. We want to be careful, to be prudent, to make wise decisions this time. That is perfectly normal and that is perfectly good.

We want talent, but at a price commensurate with performance. No more filet mignon cost for cubed steak quality. At this point we can only pay a player like Brian Orakpo based on his value to us today, not what we hope him to be in the future.

He is now what he is.
 
Orakpo just doesn't remind me of a Clay Matthews or Von Miller (when healthy).

He is in that next class of good but not franchise talent.

How much is he worth?

Since there is a discrepancy between his view of value and the team's a one year deal appears likely.

Unfortunately that eats up one third of the addl cap room, for just one player, a guy that was already here for 3-13 in 2013.

That only leaves us with 20 something players to go find to field a TEAM in 2014.
 
I think people are discounting the fact that Orakpo has only played 1 season under a coach who was not Mike Shanahan, and that coach was Jim Zorn.. We've heard a lot of issues come out about how Shanny was pulling the strings on Defense, and we all would scream and yell about how Rak was put into coverage. I do think he is undervalued because of him not being used correctly.
 
Bulldog's Twin said:
Orakpo just doesn't remind me of a Clay Matthews or Von Miller (when healthy).

He is in that next class of good but not franchise talent.

How much is he worth?

Since there is a discrepancy between his view of value and the team's a one year deal appears likely.

Unfortunately that eats up one third of the addl cap room, for just one player, a guy that was already here for 3-13 in 2013.

That only leaves us with 20 something players to go find to field a TEAM in 2014.
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With recent additions to the cap, and room we'll get from cutting dead weight, it will be more like one sixth.

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The think we have to think about is that we have other Free Agents as well. They either need to be re-signed or replaced. Yes, we have a lot of cap space but it isn't all just from getting out from under the penalty of the last two years. Part of that is because of the guys who are now off the payroll, Rak included.
 
Neophyte said:
The think we have to think about is that we have other Free Agents as well. They either need to be re-signed or replaced. Yes, we have a lot of cap space but it isn't all just from getting out from under the penalty of the last two years. Part of that is because of the guys who are now off the payroll, Rak included.
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And guys with contracts coming up in the future...

we have some expensive contracts we have no choice about coming up in the near future...

I realize we successfully navigated cap hell for a while, but I don't think that's a good argument for returning back to cap hell.
 
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