ESPN: Shanahan was ready to quit in '12

[Lanky Livingston]

And to this I say: prove it. Not with inferences from beat writers with an obvious agenda. Prove it with actual facts. Not with things said by, say, Lavar Arrington.

I will grant you this: just like dealing with NCAA athletes, the smallest kindness can be blown out of proportion. Snyder may need to be more aware of how people will look at his every action. That does not make him the problem though. It's the equivalent of giving a child of piece of candy and having to feel bad because all the other parents whine as a result. Snyder may have to go the route of "fine then, nobody gets anything"; that's a problem caused by the onlookers though. If the players are complaining about special treatment, I'll buy into it. But if bystanders are passing judgment and deciding they think it's wrong, then that is just so much noise by the peanut gallery.

I can't prove it any more than you can disprove it, you know that. But any time someone gets special treatment from the rest of a group, it creates tension. This is true at any job, in classrooms, etc. If Griffin has the ability to go over Shanahan's head directly to Snyder as CP did, that is by very definition 'undermining his authority.'

 

[Shi no Tenshi]

I can't prove it any more than you can disprove it, you know that. But any time someone gets special treatment from the rest of a group, it creates tension. This is true at any job, in classrooms, etc. If Griffin has the ability to go over Shanahan's head directly to Snyder as CP did, that is by very definition 'undermining his authority.'

Burden of proof is on the prosecution

I agree that if it is happening it is causing strife. I'm just saying there isn't any proof at this point that it is, only inference by those with an agenda. Trust me, I'll join the lynch mob when there is proof. I just generally avoid mobs elsewise though.

 

[Ax]

Exactly Shi no.

It's why I'm critical of those blindly believing anything bad about the man, and automatically dismissing anything even remotely positive.

Lazy, simple minded, and small.

 

[tshile]

And to this I say: prove it.

RG3/RG2 interviews and press conferences over the offseason
Comments made by RG3 regarding preseason, which were quickly turned around after Fletcher made his comments on the preseason
Comments from players over Griffin's post game comments

There is no 100%, undeniable proof of any of it. But people started pointing out months before the regular season that there were some weird things going on that were 'worth keeping an eye on.' And here we are.

I have no idea what the truth is, except that as over the course of Snyder's entire ownership this place has been a laughingstock compared to the rest of the league. People outside of Redskins Nation don't respect this organization (we see people bitching about the lack of respect all the time.)

Are they all wrong? Is it all made up and manufactured? Is it all jealousy of Snyder? Is it all because people are just out to get us?

Why does this crap not happen elsewhere, but constantly happen here?

 

[servumtuum]

You all are 'all in' on bringing in a football GM. I'm not arguing that isn't a good idea, but it's not the magic fix so many believe it to be. As we've seen with our other key staff choices, success is dependent on so many factors regardless of structure - who do we hire, where are they on their career trajectory, are they a good fit with the overall organization, what kind of relationships do they build/have with other key players, hell, luck even comes into play

Every cycle of failure ends with media and fans howling 'if only the Redskins had _____________'

Those of you that think bringing in a football GM will magically fix our woes, I almost feel sorry for you.

Bruce Allen was supposed to bring genius to his role - well, what has he done to keep us from declining to exactly the lowly position we find ourselves in right now? Nothing - that's what he's done. Where is all this confidence that Snyder can find the right football GM when none of his other choices of savior have panned out coming from?

A problem I have with this is that none of us actually knows the details of the arrangement in terms of CoC between Snyder, Shanahan, and Allen.

A Table of Organization, or a "job title" for that matter, often does not actually reflect who has the actual functional authority and/or responsibility for what aspects of an organization operationally making it difficult to assess "blame" when things screw up. From what I'm able to tell, Allen's actual "real" job has a vague nebulousness to it-we pretty much assume that, due to his background, the contract/financial and related issues are in his domain but what else may or may not be seems open for speculation. IOW, does his actual authority or responsibility match the model we have of what a "typical" NFL GM does and therefore can we assume that something that could be reasonably termed a "GM failure" be placed in his lap?

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Exactly Shi no.

It's why I'm critical of those blindly believing anything bad about the man, and automatically dismissing anything even remotely positive.

Lazy, simple minded, and small.

In my opinion its lazy, simple minded and small to criticize and insult others for their opinions, when there is no proof either way. But that's just me.

 

[Shi no Tenshi]

Why does this crap not happen elsewhere, but constantly happen here?

It does happen elsewhere. Especially if it's a bigger media market. People that say it only happens here have lost objectivity in their obsession. Look at the New York teams. Or the Los Angeles teams in other sports.

This site is about obsession, so it is understandable to an extent. It is disingenuous to put forth such comments as objective though.

Things were done badly before. What I am seeing in the current situation is that Snyder is actually trying to do the right thing. As some have noted, old Snyder would have fired Shanahan already and we would have all sorts of reports of Griffin being in his office, or flying him places, etc. Those reports aren't surfacing, but people are anticipating it happening because of what has came before. The heuristics are understandable, but good heuristics are accurate because of error-correcting, which isn't applying right now.

 

[Henry]

Burden of proof is on the prosecution

I agree that if it is happening it is causing strife. I'm just saying there isn't any proof at this point that it is, only inference by those with an agenda. Trust me, I'll join the lynch mob when there is proof. I just generally avoid mobs elsewise though.

The proof is that this team has consistently sucked for the past 15 years. The buck stops with Snyder. Whatever he's doing, not only is it not working, its turned this franchise into a complete joke.

We can argue details until we're blue in the face, but those don't ultimately really matter.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Lanky Livingston]

He does not control them, but he is the common denominator among all of them. Its not rocket surgery to see that he is a huge part of the problem.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

I'm not sure why rocket surgery is interesting to you, but more power to ya!

Obviously Snyder is not 100% of the problem, but he is a huge contributor to the problem.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Snyder's tenure as owner has stretched beyond the last 4 years. Even in those 4 years he's created a hostile work environment and undermined his head coach. These things don't work well in ANY work environment.

 

[Goaldeje]

Both sides are right, imo. Shanahan is to blame because he took a bad situation and did some really stupid, dumb things (Fat Al, McNabb, Jamal Brown, etc) that retarded our turnaround and development both short term and long term. He did these thing because I think most of us agree, he is a shitty GM.

But we can certainly lay some blame at Danny's feet because it's not like this should have been a shocking revelation to anyone. Shanny was dreadful in Denver, why did Danny think he was going to magically get better in DC? The fact is, after the Zorn/Vinny debacle, Shanahan could have demanded Prima Nocte rights with Redskins staff members, and Danny probably would have acquiesced. The fans were so unbelievably pissed, and were actually forming en masse to resist Snyder that I think he panicked and threw money, control and power at the biggest name he could find, which happened to be 2 time Super Bowl winning Mike Shanahan.

So yeah, I blame them both. And the fanbase for good measure, of which I am definitely a part of, and part of the problem no less. Fans were ready to riot against Snyder after the Swinging Gate play in particular, and I think Snyder assumed (quite possibly correctly) that he didn't have months to put together a true GM search, and let that person hire the next coach, etc. Instead, he capitulated to the mob mentality of the fans and got a big name and gave him WAY too much control. And then Shanny ****ed everything else up that we've discussed ad nauseum.

Until Dan hires a true, honest to God football GM who makes his own decisions that he thinks are best for the team both now and in the future, while having the backbone to tell reactionary fans to go pound sand, the cycle of suckitude will continue.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Both sides are right, imo. Shanahan is to blame because he took a bad situation and did some really stupid, dumb things (Fat Al, McNabb, Jamal Brown, etc) that retarded our turnaround and development both short term and long term. He did these thing because I think most of us agree, he is a shitty GM.

But we can certainly lay some blame at Danny's feet because it's not like this should have been a shocking revelation to anyone. Shanny was dreadful in Denver, why did Danny think he was going to magically get better in DC? The fact is, after the Zorn/Vinny debacle, Shanahan could have demanded Prima Nocte rights with Redskins staff members, and Danny probably would have acquiesced. The fans were so unbelievably pissed, and were actually forming en masse to resist Snyder that I think he panicked and threw money, control and power at the biggest name he could find, which happened to be 2 time Super Bowl winning Mike Shanahan.

So yeah, I blame them both. And the fanbase for good measure, of which I am definitely a part of, and part of the problem no less. Fans were ready to riot against Snyder after the Swinging Gate play in particular, and I think Snyder assumed (quite possibly correctly) that he didn't have months to put together a true GM search, and let that person hire the next coach, etc. Instead, he capitulated to the mob mentality of the fans and got a big name and gave him WAY too much control. And then Shanny ****ed everything else up that we've discussed ad nauseum.

Until Dan hires a true, honest to God football GM who makes his own decisions that he thinks are best for the team both now and in the future, while having the backbone to tell reactionary fans to go pound sand, the cycle of suckitude will continue.

Yep, this is about right. Although I'd argue Shanahan was set up for failure the minute he came to this job, but that's for another thread. Both are to blame - Shanahan is ultimately responsible for the play on the field, and Snyder is ultimately responsible for most of the drama off of it. Its dysfunction at its best (worst?).

 

[Henry]

you give Snyder way too much credit. He apparently has the ability to control dozens of players and several head coaches.

Pretty amazing talent if thats the case.

I don't know what he controls or doesn't control. What I do know is this team stinks, and has so stunk since Snyder bought the team. That alone is not a huge deal. Plenty of bad teams are still respectable organizations. What makes things doubly bad is that Snyder has created this culture around his team, that he's a kniving snivelling little weasel of an owner. That he undermines coaches and plays favorites with players. That he nickels and dimes his fans and blunders his way along leaving havoc in his wake.

We're not just a bad team. We're an embarrassment. We're a team everyone loves to see lose. We're the incompetent bad guy.

And yes, THAT is on Snyder. More than anyone else.

Maybe this time he didn't do anything. Maybe this time he's spent the entire four years in his basement watching everything unfold on his big screen TV. At this point it doesn't matter. Every time this team implodes (and it always does under his watch) all eyes are going to turn to him. He's earned that.

All that said, am I MAD at Snyder right now? Actually, not really. But I'm not going to defend him. I'm not going to say none of this is his fault. As has been pointed out we don't really know, but then again, I see NO reason to give him the benefit of the doubt anymore.

Once again this team is a joke. Once again, the football world is looking at Snyder, and laughing at us. I'm a fan, not a saint. I don't have to be cool with this.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

JKC died in April of 97, and Snyder bought the team in May of 1999, right before their first playoff run since the superbowl in 1992. He proceeded to destroy the team in 2000, and bring in the now infamous list of old-as-dirt free agents looking for a final paycheck. Bruce Smith, Neon Deion, Mark Carrier, etc. The rest was downhill from there.

 

[tshile]

It does happen elsewhere. Especially if it's a bigger media market. People that say it only happens here have lost objectivity in their obsession. Look at the New York teams. Or the Los Angeles teams in other sports.

This site is about obsession, so it is understandable to an extent. It is disingenuous to put forth such comments as objective though.

Things were done badly before. What I am seeing in the current situation is that Snyder is actually trying to do the right thing. As some have noted, old Snyder would have fired Shanahan already and we would have all sorts of reports of Griffin being in his office, or flying him places, etc. Those reports aren't surfacing, but people are anticipating it happening because of what has came before. The heuristics are understandable, but good heuristics are accurate because of error-correcting, which isn't applying right now.

You say that, and in general I would agree with you, but out of market media people have been brought on plenty of shows this week and the same question is always asked:

Do you guys ever deal with this kind of crap?

They all answer the same way:
They laugh
Then they say no.

 

[Shi no Tenshi]

You say that, and in general I would agree with you, but out of market media people have been brought on plenty of shows this week and the same question is always asked:

Do you guys ever deal with this kind of crap?

They all answer the same way:
They laugh
Then they say no.

Then they obviously aren't from New York.....

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

snyder ran the team like a fantasy football team early on, but he has smartened up in regards to be ing more hands off but what we really need is a gm who we can trust, who is willing to build the team for the long haul, shanny has never been willing to do that, even his move to grab rg3 was with short term benefit in mind and its set us back 3 seasons imho

 

[Ax]

The melodramatics in here concerning how we're viewed around the league reads like a teenage girl's diary filled with hysterics over a pimple before the prom.

Highly entertaining.

 

[tshile]

The melodramatics in here concerning how we're viewed around the league reads like a teenage girl's diary filled with hysterics over a pimple before the prom.

Highly entertaining.

well, that's one way of looking at it.

the other is asking whether it's always everyone else that's always wrong, or possibly you that have the misunderstandings.

of course that requires honest self reflection, something a lot of people are just not capable of.