ESPN: Shanahan was ready to quit in '12

[Shi no Tenshi]

This franchise's problems over 15 years are all Shanahan's fault?

The "at this juncture" would be the critical part of the phrase. Prior to the current regime, you very well are correct. But the reports for quite some time have been showing how hands off Snyder has been for Shanahan. That makes the needle point a different direction.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

The "at this juncture" would be the critical part of the phrase. Prior to the current regime, you very well are correct. But the reports for quite some time have been showing how hands off Snyder has been for Shanahan. That makes the needle point a different direction.

Well, my post was referring to Snyder's tenure as owner of the team, not the past 4 years of the Shanahan regime. And even that, I would argue, was undermined by Snyder's relationship with Griffin. Snyder is also ultimately responsible for hiring not only Shanahan the coach, but Shanahan the GM - the same guy who proved he could not build a team successfully on his own in Denver. Yes, he had a lot of wins there, but he never even sniffed the success he had with someone else's roster.

We may never find out 100% who was behind some of the decisions early-on in the Shanahan years, but I find it hard to believe Snyder was completely hands-off as some are suggesting.

EDIT: and Occam's Razor would not point at Shanahan at all for the dysfunction of this franchise. It was like that before he got there, and only helped it get better. It was sadly not enough though.

 

[Boone]

You all are 'all in' on bringing in a football GM. I'm not arguing that isn't a good idea, but it's not the magic fix so many believe it to be. As we've seen with our other key staff choices, success is dependent on so many factors regardless of structure - who do we hire, where are they on their career trajectory, are they a good fit with the overall organization, what kind of relationships do they build/have with other key players, hell, luck even comes into play

Every cycle of failure ends with media and fans howling 'if only the Redskins had _____________'

Those of you that think bringing in a football GM will magically fix our woes, I almost feel sorry for you.

Bruce Allen was supposed to bring genius to his role - well, what has he done to keep us from declining to exactly the lowly position we find ourselves in right now? Nothing - that's what he's done. Where is all this confidence that Snyder can find the right football GM when none of his other choices of savior have panned out coming from?

 

[Lanky Livingston]

You all are 'all in' on bringing in a football GM. I'm not arguing that isn't a good idea, but it's not the magic fix so many believe it to be. As we've seen with our other key staff choices, success is dependent on so many factors regardless of structure - who do we hire, where are they on their career trajectory, are they a good fit with the overall organization, what kind of relationships do they build/have with other key players, hell, luck even comes into play

Every cycle of failure ends with media and fans howling 'if only the Redskins had _____________'

Those of you that think bringing in a football GM will magically fix our woes, I almost feel sorry for you.

Bruce Allen was supposed to bring genius to his role - well, what has he done to keep us from declining to exactly the lowly position we find ourselves in right now? Nothing - that's what he's done. Where is all this confidence that Snyder can find the right football GM when none of his other choices of savior have panned out coming from?

I'm not sure if this was directed at me, but I'll respond.

Bruce Allen was not a "football GM;" he's a contracts guy. I would argue he's been very successful at that - he cut a lot of fat, and did a lot to reverse what Cerrato had done over the years to our cap situation. He also brought fiscal responsibility back to the front office - we were on the sidelines watching as the Matt Flynns of the world got ginormous contracts, instead of being the ones giving them.

As far as getting a true 'Football GM' solving all the problems of this franchise, I don't agree with that. I think it would go a long way, but only if Snyder can keep himself completely separated from the team. Be an owner, not a fan, Dan. I think that was his ultimate mistake. He thought he could be superfan Dan AND the owner, and those things would not conflict.

 

[Shi no Tenshi]

We may never find out 100% who was behind some of the decisions early-on in the Shanahan years, but I find it hard to believe Snyder was completely hands-off as some are suggesting.

While I know you have reasons for thinking that way, and there is plenty to draw from prior to 2009, there is no evidence to suggest that position currently. You may be proven right in the future, but until that point, all you are saying is you have confirmation bias that makes you believe everything is his fault. Let the evidence prove it, not inferences from speculation.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

While I know you have reasons for thinking that way, and there is plenty to draw from prior to 2009, there is no evidence to suggest that position currently. You may be proven right in the future, but until that point, all you are saying is you have confirmation bias that makes you believe everything is his fault. Let the evidence prove it, not inferences from speculation.

I am saying everything is Snyder's fault because he is ultimately responsible for hiring Shanahan, and putting him in charge of personnel. Everything is Snyder's fault because he undermined Shanny's tenure here with his relationship to Griffin. Everything is Snyder's fault because of the years of dysfunction that has come to define his tenure as owner.

That speculation about Snyder having a hand in the moves is just that, speculation. But if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, its probably a duck.

 

[Boone]

I wasn't directing it at anyone in particular. But Bruce Allen doesn't get a pass from me. He's a top executive with the Redskins regardless of his specific role, and to the extent the organization is a dysfunctional mess, he's smack dab on the middle if it and apparently has had little to no positive bearing on eliminating dysfunction. I'm just pointing out that short of nebulous references to his skills and financial genius the front office appears more dysfunctional than ever. So color me skeptical that bringing some other high profile savior in the form of a football GM is going to solve all our problems.

 

[Boone]

On other words, Snyder is the debil and appears doomed to fail. I will remain convinced of that until we are a perennial playoff team.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

I wasn't directing it at anyone on particular. Bruce Allen doesn't get a pass from me. He's a top executive with the Redskins regardless of his specific role, and to the extent the organization is a dysfunctional mess, he's smack dab on the middle if it and apparently has had little to no positive bearing on eliminating dysfunction. I'm just pointing out that short of nebulous references to his skills and financial genius the front office appears more dysfunctional than ever. So color me skeptical that bringing some other high profile savior in the form of a football GM is going to solve all our problems.

Interesting. I actually see the front office as more competent than ever, personally. Outside of the cap penalty (which most agree should not have been a penalty), what has he done to harbor dysfunction? He cut out bad contracts and as a whole has given out much more responsible contracts (those balking at the Josh Morgan contract, I'm sure it would have been double under Cerrato). And the cap penalty only came about because Shanahan (or possibly Snyder) did not trade Fat Albert to the Titans for a 3rd round pick when they had the chance.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Bulldog]

Snyder didn't make the decision after the 2010 debacle with McNabb to then endorse and start Grossman and then John Beck for the 2011 lost season.

That 23-0 loss to a mediocre Bills team under Beck was perhaps the worst offensive performance I have seen here in decades.

John Beck simply lacked an NFL arm and for Mike to endorse him looked as silly as when Mike Ditka traded a third round pick for Heath Shuler and said he was the qb of the future in New Orleans.

 

[Henry]

Oh well Boone, I said when Allen and Shanahan signed on that it appeared Allen was brought on only because Shanahan wanted him. I banged that drum for a few years but let it go when we started winning. I'm not sure I ever considered Allen a GM in the traditional sense, though I did think our setup was better than it was when Snyder and Cerratto were the GM (still do.)

Anyway, as to the overall picture and why we blame Snyder now even though we don't know what's REALLY going on, this blog pretty covers it for me.

Staying Medium: Snyder, Shanahan, and finally reaching the point of despair

My perception had been that any coach the lacked gravitas – Norv Turner, Jim Zorn etc – would be actively undermined by Snyder to the point that he wouldn’t even have a chance to succeed at his job. However celebrity coaches like Joe Gibbs or, I thought, Mike Shanahan – whom Snyder had not-so-secretly lusted after for some time – would get sufficient respect that they could actually run football operations for the most part. I fully understand that the Celebrity Coach model has its flaws, and being restricted to that was a serious limitation on this franchise’s options for success. But per the previous paragraph, we were better off just acknowledging that restriction and talking about how to work within it.

That’s why all of yesterday’s drama was so discouraging. Apparently even Mike Shanahan, about as big a football name as you can get, feels he can’t do his job because of the owner he works for. If even the Celebrity Coach model can’t protect the franchise from Snyder’s dysfunction, then what other options are there?

Emphasis mine. Where DO we go from here? It's not necessarily about who we can get, but who we can get that can actually succeed here. I'm fresh out of ideas over here.

 

[Bulldog]

Gibbs and Shanahan had autonomy but showed that one man really can't run the whole show.

The report that AJ Smith would be named GM and he would work with Snyder and Allen to select a coach is perhaps the only positive slant on things if true.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Gibbs and Shanahan had autonomy but showed that one man really can't run the whole show.

The report that AJ Smith would be named GM and he would work with Snyder and Allen to select a coach is perhaps the only positive slant on things if true.

Gibbs did not have autonomy, this is a constantly perpetuated myth and I'm not sure how it started. From what I understand they had a 3-headed monster approach with Snyder, Gibbs & Cerrato while Joe was here.

 

[tshile]

Those of you that think bringing in a football GM will magically fix our woes, I almost feel sorry for you.

I don't think it's a magic fix, but I'll take doing things the right way and not winning the superbowl over doing things the wrong way and being a laughingstock of the league while still not winning the superbowl 10 times out of 10.

Doing things right doesn't guarantee a super bowl, but it gives you the most consistent, realistic shot year after year.

 

[Boone]

There's no certainty this is even Snyder's intention - it's just being reported as such.

 

[Bulldog]

Gibbs had the autonomy to initiate the first round trade for Jason Campbell as the qb of the future in DC.

He made the call on the Brunell trade to pick his veteran field leader in 2004.

Didn't he identify and pick Chris Cooley with his first ever pick to come in and be the hybrid TE/H-back?

See, I love these indirect digs at Snyder that come supposedly from someone with intimate knowledge of the situation.

In most cases it is just a fan opinion.

When I make these I use 'IMO' or something else to show I don't have any inside information.

 

[Chris]

10 years ago I joined a message board dedicated to the Washington Redskins. For a good while all I did was read thoughts there. When I made my first post I pointed out the irony of some members there making fun of the Cincinnati Bengals and their ineptness.

I pointed out that the Skins were not better than the Bengals, that in fact they were the Bengals.

I got eviscerated by Navy Dave for that post.

Funny how time can often be the filter needed to cut through the crap.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Gibbs had the autonomy to initiate the first round trade for Jason Campbell as the qb of the future in DC.

He made the call on the Brunell trade to pick his veteran field leader in 2004.

Didn't he identify and pick Chris Cooley with his first ever pick to come in and be the hybrid TE/H-back?

See, I love these indirect digs at Snyder that come supposedly from someone with intimate knowledge of the situation.

In most cases it is just a fan opinion.

When I make these I use 'IMO' or something else to show I don't have any inside information.

Are you stating that your posts are more than just a fan opinion, and the rest of us should shut the **** up because our "fan opinions" are shit? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

10 years ago I joined a message board dedicated to the Washington Redskins. For a good while all I did was read thoughts there. When I made my first post I pointed out the irony of some members there making fun of the Cincinnati Bengals and their ineptness.

I pointed out that the Skins were not better than the Bengals, that in fact they were the Bengals.

I got eviscerated by Navy Dave for that post.

Funny how time can often be the filter needed to cut through the crap.

I am finally "seeing the light."

This franchise is beyond inept...there's a reason why "the game has passed by" all the coaches we hire, and most of the players we sign are shit. There's a reason we let guys like Antonio Pierce & Ryan Clark go and sign Adam Archuleta and Nick Barnetts to replace them. The reason is the team is a dysfunctional mess.

We have tried several different approaches, all have failed. Every, single, one. Norv Turner is lambasted around here, and I'd challenge you to find a Redskins fan who would piss on him if he were on fire. And yet he is the winningest head coach of Dan Snyder's tenure. Mike Shanahan, Joe Gibbs, Marty Schottenheimer...these are coaching legends, and they all won LESS than Norval Turner.

 

[Shi no Tenshi]

Everything is Snyder's fault because he undermined Shanny's tenure here with his relationship to Griffin.

And to this I say: prove it. Not with inferences from beat writers with an obvious agenda. Prove it with actual facts. Not with things said by, say, Lavar Arrington.

I will grant you this: just like dealing with NCAA athletes, the smallest kindness can be blown out of proportion. Snyder may need to be more aware of how people will look at his every action. That does not make him the problem though. It's the equivalent of giving a child of piece of candy and having to feel bad because all the other parents whine as a result. Snyder may have to go the route of "fine then, nobody gets anything"; that's a problem caused by the onlookers though. If the players are complaining about special treatment, I'll buy into it. But if bystanders are passing judgment and deciding they think it's wrong, then that is just so much noise by the peanut gallery.