Washington Post: DC Sports Bog: Santana Moss bothered by Pierre Garcon’s comments

[servumtuum]

You clearly were never a US Marine

And Garçon is clearly not a team leader either. That's what we need. And yeah? Keep his mouth shut and having those discussions face to face behind the scenes IS what Garçon and everyone else should be doing. Garçon would do well to focus on his own issues this season and let the coaching staff worry about the other guys on the offense.

Absolutely, I agree with the bolded statement 100%, in fact that brings up another question. Do we currently actually have a team leader on offense-the way Fletcher is on the defensive unit? It's beginning to seem to me that we don't-and that includes Griffin. The coaching staff seems mired in a quagmire of acknowledging something is wrong and trying things without a lot of success over and over-partly due to a bit of egotistical hard-headedness, IMO, reluctant to accept the "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results" definition of insanity and as a result blinding themselves to other viable options.

Lanky's post about Cooley's Haynesworth comments feels uncomfortably plausible to me. Just what in the hell is going on in that locker room? Here's my problem. It's not that the talent isn't there-it is, some of performing better than expected (Hello Mr. Reed!) and some of it deteriorating or floundering around with no discernable consistent improvement just occasional flashes (Hey Leonard and Aldrick). Santana, you took Garcon's comments a little personally did ya? Kinda sounds like you might have. Prove on the field that you're not one of the problems then you can complain, ok? My current discontent covers Mr. Griffin as well. Robert, get your self-pitying head out of your arse, play smart, don't try to act like your knee is all-better, admit you ain't what you were last season and make the necessary adjustments until you are-you got the skills and the smarts, use 'em dammit.


Rant over.

Sorry, I got caught up in the moment there.

 

[fansince62]

Well, lets see if I can take what's likely to be a shockingly unpopular view here.

What's a player to do when he's frustrated by a team under performing? Keep his mouth shut for the sake of some abstract bulls**t concept of "team loyalty"? The team is playing like sh*t. Griffin's playing like sh*t. Does he go to Shanny and voice his concerns? (P.S. I'd love to know if that happened and if so what kind of response he got.)


"Team unity " is a wonderful ideal but when the unity seems to be getting in the way of not playing way below what the team is actually capable of I can understand Garcon's frustration. Hell, I'm pretty damn frustrated with the team right now.

Was his outburst a violation of propriety? Probably. Was it disloyal? Well, IMO, only to those who think loyalty means "support us without criticism even when we're f**king up big time." Sometimes true loyalty means calling somebody on their buls**t.

to me..it seems the real problem is a lack of leadership. RGIII doesn't seem to have a full grasp on the reigns. fletch might have some - but he's on the way out.

 

[Boone]

Absolutely, I agree with the bolded statement 100%, in fact that brings up another question. Do we currently actually have a team leader on offense-the way Fletcher is on the defensive unit? It's beginning to seem to me that we don't-and that includes Griffin. The coaching staff seems mired in a quagmire of acknowledging something is wrong and trying things without a lot of success over and over-partly due to a bit of egotistical hard-headedness, IMO, reluctant to accept the "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results" definition of insanity and as a result blinding themselves to other viable options.

Lanky's post about Cooley's Haynesworth comments feels uncomfortably plausible to me. Just what in the hell is going on in that locker room? Here's my problem. It's not that the talent isn't there-it is, some of performing better than expected (Hello Mr. Reed!) and some of it deteriorating or floundering around with no discernable consistent improvement just occasional flashes (Hey Leonard and Aldrick). Santana, you took Garcon's comments a little personally did ya? Kinda sounds like you might have. Prove on the field that you're not one of the problems then you can complain, ok? My current discontent covers Mr. Griffin as well. Robert, get your self-pitying head out of your arse, play smart, don't try to act like your knee is all-better, admit you ain't what you were last season and make the necessary adjustments until you are-you got the skills and the smarts, use 'em dammit.


Rant over.

Sorry, I got caught up in the moment there.

Those are all good questions and I actually feel ya on most of that. I have no problem with the questions - our offense mostly has sucked. I would just prefer those discussions to happen somewhere other than with Post reporters or with former players with radio shows and an axe to grind...

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Those are all good questions and I actually feel ya on most of that. I have no problem with the questions - our offense mostly has sucked. I would just prefer those discussions to happen somewhere other than with Post reporters or with former players with radio shows and an axe to grind...

You think Cooley has an axe to grind?

 

[tshile]

I listen to cooley almost every day. If anything he's quite a homer for the team, the ownership, and the coaching staff. Though I'm just a fan, so maybe it's just for show.

I thought these sorts of issues, and therefore these sorts of discussion on the forum, would only happen if Griffin wasn't allowed to start week 1 or was benched. The opposite happened, and we still find ourselves here.

 

[ntotoro]

Those are all good questions and I actually feel ya on most of that. I have no problem with the questions - our offense mostly has sucked. I would just prefer those discussions to happen somewhere other than with Post reporters or with former players with radio shows and an axe to grind...

Cooley was finished as a player and he knew it. I don't think he has a particular axe to grind.

Nick

 

[Cycleans]

I had a troubling observation last week with the offense. Griffins passes are a bit erratic some look like intentional overthrows can't tell for certain but Denver was body slamming both of our qbs especially in the second half. How does an offensive coordinator not make measures to protect the qb. I read somewhere the Oline was confused about where the pressure was coming from against Denver.
I would of at the very least try to design quicker passing plays and of course run the ball. Griffin has been pretty dreadful on the deep balls all season yet the offense kept looking for the deep play. The Wr's did a poor job of getting separation for most of the game.... Cousin's had a shot and didn't fare so well... it's more than just the qb under performing.

 

[tshile]

I loved BMitch as a player but I can't stand him as a talking head

LaVar....

well, I just replaced my 106.7 the fan preset with the NPR preset. i haven't listened to that station in months.

 

[Fear The Spear]

Yet another reason I love Moss, and he's one of my favorite Redskins ever.

 

[SkinsOrlando]

Bottom Line: We suck at passing
It's on Kyle, the O-line, Griff, Garcon, Moss, Morgan, Reed, Robinson......all of them, the entire offensive structure


Whether Garcon said it or I said it.......it's a fact and it implicates all those above..............I have no problem with this.............Gumdrop lane and Lollipop dr on fantasy island be damned, reality check is sometimes the way to go

 

[Boone]

Washington Post: DC Sports Bog: Santana Moss bothered by Pierre Garcon’s comm...

Cooley was finished as a player and he knew it. I don't think he has a particular axe to grind.

Nick

I mentioned BMitch and Arrington in an earlier post, those are 2 I'm referencing. Cooley is smart. Not afraid to say what he thinks - ever - but his comments are never driven by bitterness or self-promotion, not anything I've ever heard from him anyway.

I never mentioned Cooley.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

I mentioned BMitch and Arrington in an earlier post, those are 2 I'm referencing. Cooley is smart. Not afraid to say what he thinks - ever - but his comments are never driven by bitterness or self-promotion, not anything I've ever heard from him anyway.

I never mentioned Cooley.

I brought up Cooley's comments about Haynesworth, and them Serv addressed them in a post you replied to. I missed the references to Lavar and BMitch, so assumed you were referring to Cooley also, that's my bad.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

 

[ntotoro]

I brought up Cooley's comments about Haynesworth, and them Serv addressed them in a post you replied to. I missed the references to Lavar and BMitch, so assumed you were referring to Cooley also, that's my bad.

Ditto me.

Nick

 

[fansince62]

I listen to cooley almost every day. If anything he's quite a homer for the team, the ownership, and the coaching staff. Though I'm just a fan, so maybe it's just for show.

I thought these sorts of issues, and therefore these sorts of discussion on the forum, would only happen if Griffin wasn't allowed to start week 1 or was benched. The opposite happened, and we still find ourselves here.

so..this all seems to be driving in one inescapable direction - or let us restate as one conclusion that draws the best face on all of this: we have a QB who arrived with some limitations. he suffered a very serious injury and was unable to work during the offseason informally and during the preseason in games with the offense…specifically the receivers. there never was any real chance to improve the skill set (i.e., pocket reading) or do all the integration work/repetition with the receivers. the consequences are showing on the field. if this is the case, we may not see much improvement throughout the season. next offseason is when the learning/ingraining will occur.

 

[fansince62]

Yet another reason I love Moss, and he's one of my favorite Redskins ever.

like him too, but his performance has dropped this year. too many dropped passes for one thing.

 

[tshile]

so..this all seems to be driving in one inescapable direction - or let us restate as one conclusion that draws the best face on all of this: we have a QB who arrived with some limitations. he suffered a very serious injury and was unable to work during the offseason informally and during the preseason in games with the offense…specifically the receivers. there never was any real chance to improve the skill set (i.e., pocket reading) or do all the integration work/repetition with the receivers. the consequences are showing on the field. if this is the case, we may not see much improvement throughout the season. next offseason is when the learning/ingraining will occur.

I think that's a fair assessment, in hindsight. We've heard multiple QB's and Kyle himself say that year two (specifically what goes on in training camp) is very important, and where you can make your biggest step, in this offensive system. Griffin missed all of that.

I think it's also fair to point out that much of the criticism at the time revolved around off the field issues with Griffin (comments coming from him and his father, as well as problems with his attitude.) Maybe that's not accurate for everyone else, but that's certainly where my criticism was focused. I actually thought he was healthy and ready to go and completely underestimated the effects of missing actual practice in training camp and preseason :\

The real issue is that next year is the last contract year for this staff. Look at how the fanbase judges the staff (there is some real hatred for Kyle... Mike too.) If next offseason is where the real learning takes place it's entirely possible that's too late for this staff. If this staff goes who the hell knows what we'll wind up with as a replacement. Will Allen go with them (there's lots of speculation that Shanahan is why Allen is here to begin with)?

For all their flaws, I don't see convincing evidence that removing this staff is going to be a good thing for the organization.

 

[Bulldog]

Ironically it is Moss whose production seems to be down the most from last season.

He's 34 and suffered through his share of injuries over the years.

It appears 2012 was his 'spike' year where you see a declining vet put up good numbers that one final time.

We saw that here from Henry Ellard who caught 1,300 yards in 1994 at age 33 and then declined very quickly.

 

[tshile]

Yeah it's hard to tell how much of it is because Moss isn't as good or has lost something, and how much of it is because the offense sucks at passing.

When the offense is good at the start of the season it allows the playbook to be opened up. They don't have to work on basic stuff - they're executing that well enough they go into the playbook deeper and practice new stuff.

When the offense sucks at the start they spend all their time trying to get that basic stuff working, it's all about correction and there is no advancement. How can you expect the expand your playbook when you can't get the basic stuff working?

Cooley (god I'm starting to hate referencing him so much ) spoke to this yesterday. They haven't been running any of the stuff they ran in training camp because there's no confidence in being able to execute it. In the 2nd year with all these guys (everyone returned...) they were expecting to open up that playbook. They can't. So they're reverting back to simple stuff.

Moss is what - the 4th best receiving target on the team (to me its garcon, reed, hankerson)? He's just not getting much of a chance. It doesn't help that when he does he drops the ball.

If the offense starts clicking and starts going into more complicated plays you may see Moss become that valuable target he was last year.

 

[Bulldog]

You would figure that simplifying things might include more screens, hitches and slants to hit guys quickly and develop a flow.

Instead we see attempts to run deeper patterns that put maximum pressure on both the OL and QB.

 

[tshile]

As I understand it simplifying means reducing the number of reads that have to be made for the play to be successful. They're running 1 read plays as in there is one guy on defense that is read and that determines where the ball goes.

It may speak to the perception that he's not reading the defense well or going through progressions.