thomas signed by Panthers

[Miles Monroe]

said Redskin played over 15 yrs ago...different NFL. I'm not arguing AA will be a bust. I'm trying to get across the point that in terms of how current offenses are built.......he doesn't fit any position other than the Y/slot. And we're not using him in that role. The issue isn't what he can produce....but the options lost by playing him at the Z. This team will still be looking for a bigger receiver next off-season.

15 years, but if you can get separation, catch and run, seems to me it's the same old NFL.

He only fits the Y spot thinking in conventional terms. Shanny has never struck me as a conventional thinker, and the apple never falls far from the tree.

Categorizing by height and weight doesn't always work, so I'm not so sure what we'll be looking for come the next off season.

So,thinking conventionally where does Santana Moss fit ?

 

[Yusuf06]

I had the same thought Miles. However how many exceptions like Moss can you have on the roster before you face matchup problems you simply can't overcome? Another question. Which is more likely to happen, DT getting some added maturity/professionalism or Moss/Armstrong/Banks getting a late growth spurt? What about the chances of Galloway getting younger or Williams gaining some speed? Obviously all those guys are going to be limited in some way no matter what.

Sometimes you're dealt a less than optimum hand. In those cases you may have to live with it for a while and just hope your luck changes next offseason.
Posted via BGO Mobile Device

 

[Goaldeje]

Another thing to remember is that Shanny went to battle with McCafferey and Rod Smith for years, both (IIRC) undrafted, and neither the prototypical WR. Yet both were extremely successful. Shanahan may not be concerned with what any of us think of as the norm.
Posted via BGO Mobile Device

 

[Neophyte]

Fellas, I am thinking we have gone as far as we can with this one. No matter which side of the fence you are on, no one is pulling you to the other one at this point. There are those who think Shanahan did the right thing and those that don't.

I'd to say that only time will tell who was right but it won't. No way to know now. Getting cut might be the catalyst for Thomas to really wake up and prove he can do this thing. He might never have done anything without that single action so we won't ever know if Shanahan gave up on him too soon or not.

 

[fansince62]

Another thing to remember is that Shanny went to battle with McCafferey and Rod Smith for years, both (IIRC) undrafted, and neither the prototypical WR. Yet both were extremely successful. Shanahan may not be concerned with what any of us think of as the norm.
Posted via BGO Mobile Device

good for Shanny! worked during the 80's and 90s! his current receiving corps sucks right now. his only passing threat in the red zone are the TEs and backs running curls. DBs are getting bigger, faster and more physical - as are LBs. The whole wideout game has been shifting to leaping ability and physical strength going for the ball in contested space...and for run blocking.

Shanny is making due with what he has. As we already know...however unsuccessfully...the Skins have been trying to upgrade their receving corps to the current "profile" for quite a while.

hey...good that you are sticking to your point-of-view. I'm looking at what teams are doing these days and believe the Skins are gonna have to make a similar move. They give up too much by not doing so.

Not denigrating AA for who he is and the skills that he has. He has value. I just happen to believe that the total set is limited...and there are things he's simply not going to be able to do. This, in turn, limits the OC's options.

 

[fansince62]

15 years, but if you can get separation, catch and run, seems to me it's the same old NFL.

He only fits the Y spot thinking in conventional terms. Shanny has never struck me as a conventional thinker, and the apple never falls far from the tree.

Categorizing by height and weight doesn't always work, so I'm not so sure what we'll be looking for come the next off season.

So,thinking conventionally where does Santana Moss fit ?

not conventional! use the run to set up the pass...that's Shanny think. nothing novel there.

As I have stated in earlier posts...Moss doesn't fit as an X receiver either. and over the years we have seen the following: he does get shut down, he doesn't contribute much in the run block game (on a consistent basis), he's not a factor in the Red Zone.

the point is...we don't have any WRs who can do these things. we have an average receiving corps. everyone in the Universe knows this.

guarantee you receivers will be on the table next off-season and the team will be looking to sign either thru FA or the draft a bigger wideout who has all the other skills (hands, speed, toughness, etc.).

 

[Mayor]

Size matters?

I'm not so sure about that. Just look at what Belichick did in NE. Traded a 6'4" Randy Moss and then picked-up a 5'9" Deion Branch. And look at the rest of their receivers.

Welker - 5'10"
Edelman - 5'10"
Tate - 6'1"
and the aforementioned Branch.

I'm not saying there is no place for tall receivers, but height alone means nothing. Sure, we've seen flashes by Thomas, but he was never consistent. And I think that's what Shanny wants more than anything. When I try to read between the lines, I'm often wrong, but Shanny's discussion with reporters about Thomas "seemed" to indicate that Shanny thinks Thomas doesn't dedicate himself the way he needs/wants.

 

[fansince62]

I'm not so sure about that. Just look at what Belichick did in NE. Traded a 6'4" Randy Moss and then picked-up a 5'9" Deion Branch. And look at the rest of their receivers.

Welker - 5'10"
Edelman - 5'10"
Tate - 6'1"
and the aforementioned Branch.

I'm not saying there is no place for tall receivers, but height alone means nothing. Sure, we've seen flashes by Thomas, but he was never consistent. And I think that's what Shanny wants more than anything. When I try to read between the lines, I'm often wrong, but Shanny's discussion with reporters about Thomas "seemed" to indicate that Shanny thinks Thomas doesn't dedicate himself the way he needs/wants.

disagree 100%.

the changes in defenses and offensive schemes have all emphasized the importance of bigger, stronger receivers. Belichick went out and got Moss for a reason...precisely the one I have been speaking to. Guarantee you that passing game will drop off w/o Moss...especially Welker.

I'm not syaing smaller receivers don't have a place...I'm saying if you look down the line....Moss....Andre Johnson....Chad Ochocinco....TO......Hakeem Nicks....Calvin Johnson......Roddy White.....Anquan Boldin....Larry Fitzgerald......Brandon Marshall....Braylon Edwards.....and many others..... teams are all moving to 6 ft and taller receivers with strength, speed and great leaping ability at the X and Z wideout positions. This is where most of the top tier receivers are. There are exceptions in terms of rosters...the Iggles come to mind....but in the main.....it's been a transition going on for most of the last decade.

we can get by with smurfs...but we end up sacrificing some playcalls because of that. just sayin: whether you agree or not....it's where most current offenses are headed. it's not where we're headed...and it shows.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

7) He has obvious physical characteristics - something a team that doesn't have A SINGLE RECEIVER SHAPED TO A MODERN OFFENSE could use. This team will forever have major receiver suckage problems until they find the sorts modern offenses use. Why do you think the team ran through so many receivers during the off-season? why do you think we will be wasting yet more fraft picks/FA signings next off-season on receivers? they know they don't have the right mold of player - there was at least an outside chance Thomas could have been developed. but the team evidently decided 1 week into pre-season that wasn't in the cards. 1 week!!!! there's more going on there than headphones and modeling.

Anthony Mix was tall...what ever happened to him?

It takes more than "obvious physical characteristics" to compete at this level. There is an extremely long list of guys with all the right dimensions who failed at cracking an NFL roster. As the cliche goes, football is 90% mental.

8) Glad Armstrong has a few catches and one TD. He's not a gamebreaker and the league will figure him out soon enough. He's suited to be a Y receiver. Doesn't have the size to be a real factor in the Red Zone - something the Skins lack - and not much use as a blocker. He has 7 catches so far - not exactly earth shaking. He has good hands, runs his routes. oh...apparently some are enamored by the fact that he keeps his mouth shut. great. singular virtue.

Maybe we're watching different things, but I see Triple A consistently getting behind the defense. If not for McNabb's accuracy/playbook/whatever issues, AA would have much more than 1 TD. Oh, and the dreaded turf monster took one away also.

I find it ironic that you're ready to pigeon-hole Anthony Armstrong into a role after 5 games, yet the guy who's had 2 and a half years to prove himself "still needs time to develop." Just sayin...

 

[fansince62]

Anthony Mix was tall...what ever happened to him?

It takes more than "obvious physical characteristics" to compete at this level. There is an extremely long list of guys with all the right dimensions who failed at cracking an NFL roster. As the cliche goes, football is 90% mental.



Maybe we're watching different things, but I see Triple A consistently getting behind the defense. If not for McNabb's accuracy/playbook/whatever issues, AA would have much more than 1 TD. Oh, and the dreaded turf monster took one away also.

I find it ironic that you're ready to pigeon-hole Anthony Armstrong into a role after 5 games, yet the guy who's had 2 and a half years to prove himself "still needs time to develop." Just sayin...

1) We won't mention the dysfunctional situation Thomas was drafted into.

2) Not to belittle you Cranky...but yea.....not very Joe Blow who has measurables is ipso facto going to be an all-pro. so what's your point? hardly earthshaking news.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

1) We won't mention the dysfunctional situation Thomas was drafted into.

2) Not to belittle you Cranky...but yea.....not very Joe Blow who has measurables is ipso facto going to be an all-pro. so what's your point? hardly earthshaking news.

1) So, Lee Evans was drafted into a functional situation? Mike Williams in Tampa is in a functional situation? Louis Murphy in Oakland is in a functional situation? I don't see this as a valid excuse, because plenty of WRs are drafted onto poor teams, and find a way to perform. More likely, he couldn't learn Zorn's playbook, and now he can't learn Shanahan's playbook. Occam's Razor (sp?) - the simplest solution is usually the correct one.

2) Well, you seem to be stuck on the fact that Thomas has the right size to be a WR, so we should give him more time to develop. I thought that was a major part of your point - his physical gifts. I was simply pointing out that physical gifts are not everything - otherwise Patrick Johnson would be in the HOF by now.

 

[Goaldeje]

1) We won't mention the dysfunctional situation Thomas was drafted into.

2) Not to belittle you Cranky...but yea.....not very Joe Blow who has measurables is ipso facto going to be an all-pro. so what's your point? hardly earthshaking news.

Oohh, I'll take this one Lanky! I think you just made his point. DT had the measurables. Not much else, but he had the measurables.

Fansince, at the risk of irritating Neo more )), I still haven't seen you address DT's quote unless I missed it. He said something along the lines that he know knew he needed to rededicate himself to football, and felt like he had a fresh start in CAR. Says it all to me. If he wasn't able to dedicate himself when a HOF coach like Shanahan came into town, that signifies to me that he wasn't dedicated, to Kirbster's point.

So why keep him?
Posted via BGO Mobile Device

 

[fansince62]

Oohh, I'll take this one Lanky! I think you just made his point. DT had the measurables. Not much else, but he had the measurables.

Fansince, at the risk of irritating Neo more )), I still haven't seen you address DT's quote unless I missed it. He said something along the lines that he know knew he needed to rededicate himself to football, and felt like he had a fresh start in CAR. Says it all to me. If he wasn't able to dedicate himself when a HOF coach like Shanahan came into town, that signifies to me that he wasn't dedicated, to Kirbster's point.

So why keep him?
Posted via BGO Mobile Device

no....I'm waiting for you folks to address my assertion about the trend in modern offenses toward bigger, stronger X and Z receivers. All I have seen is a "what about Belichick? he has a smurf corps". as though Belichick never sought out Moss in the first place for an offense that came one game short of 18 straight. One can easily produce a list of current X and Y receivers in which 6 ft+ top performers far exceeds the shorter variety. I have adduced some reasons: receivers are expected to block more and more often; DBs are getting bigger; the red zone passing game is increasingly vertical; there are simply more talented, fast bigger receivers available these days.

dedicate? what the H does that mean? please quantify that and produce a statistic that enables us to separate the dedicated from the non-dedicated? you can't. it's no different from saying "well...I'm just going to have to try harder." ok. try harder. one would hope that after all the passes Santana has dropped lo these many years he too will be "more dedicated". it just doesn't mean all that much if your intention is to use it as a discriminating factor among players. it's an inherently subjective concept. which brings us back to the coaching staff. you know...the guys who would never, ever cover their own asses because they're all about truth and virtue!

 

[Boone]

I don't think any of us would argue that the lack of a big physical prototypical WR is a good thing Al. But I wouldn't mistake the fact that no one is responding to that argument as evidence its a compelling one. Because the bottom line is, it doesn't matter what *kind* of player a team is looking for - no team is going to continue to hold onto a player (prototypical archetype or not) who can't get it done on the field when given opportunities. You're just taking the 'potential' argument and putting a different spin on it. DT was 'potential' with 'prototypical physique'. So what? If he doesn't live up to expectations, all that physique is just failure in a prettier package. Give me someone, regardless of physique, who can produce any day of the week.

If DT turns out to be a monster, hell - even a consistent roster holder - I'm here first in line to give you your props. But I'm betting 3 years from now, he's not on a roster and no one even remembers his name.

 

[fansince62]

I don't think any of us would argue that the lack of a big physical prototypical WR is a good thing Al. But I wouldn't mistake the fact that no one is responding to that argument as evidence its a compelling one. Because the bottom line is, it doesn't matter what *kind* of player a team is looking for - no team is going to continue to hold onto a player (prototypical archetype or not) who can't get it done on the field when given opportunities. You're just taking the 'potential' argument and putting a different spin on it. DT was 'potential' with 'prototypical physique'. So what? If he doesn't live up to expectations, all that physique is just failure in a prettier package. Give me someone, regardless of physique, who can produce any day of the week.

If DT turns out to be a monster, hell - even a consistent roster holder - I'm here first in line to give you your props. But I'm betting 3 years from now, he's not on a roster and no one even remembers his name.

roger that. In the grand scheme of things DT is insignificant. I'm much more interested on how Shanahan will...ummm...modernize parts of this team.

 

[Goaldeje]

roger that. In the grand scheme of things DT is insignificant. I'm much more interested on how Shanahan will...ummm...modernize parts of this team.

On this we can agree. I am interested in this too. My position is just a little more, um... patient than yours. It's been one off season, and they transformed the O-Line from a disaster to serviceable, brought in a franchise QB, and are switching schemes on D.

Had they brought in two top tier WR (Boldin and Housh, for example), but not addressed the line, I don't see how that benefits us at all. At that point, I think we are much worse off than we are now.

Acknowledging that we have a problem at WR is fine. Expecting them to fix ALL problems in one off season is silly.

 

[fansince62]

On this we can agree. I am interested in this too. My position is just a little more, um... patient than yours. It's been one off season, and they transformed the O-Line from a disaster to serviceable, brought in a franchise QB, and are switching schemes on D.

Had they brought in two top tier WR (Boldin and Housh, for example), but not addressed the line, I don't see how that benefits us at all. At that point, I think we are much worse off than we are now.

Acknowledging that we have a problem at WR is fine. Expecting them to fix ALL problems in one off season is silly.

now that wasn't the argument I was engaged in..was it? fixing the problem is a different matter. the off-season will be a challenge given how bad the defense is - it's a unit that has some talent but cannot execute the 3-4. I refrained from posting my usual half time synopsis on defense suckage because the same themes get tiresome. to fence the expected...so what...do you quit and just forfeit cuz you're playing peyton manning? doesn't really matter - this defense has made almost every QB it has faced looked like peyton manning.