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thomas signed by Panthers

One of many experimental iterations ...

Yusuf06

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I didn't think Thomas would stay unemployed for long. It's tough to second guess Shanny squared on this but WRs often take a few years to develop. Also I'd rather we'd gotten something for him, even if only a late round pick which should have been doable.
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Jugband McGillicuddy

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Army Marshall

As I said in the other thread, "he'll be on a roster by the end of the week." I'm not surprised at all. I hope he actually gets a shot in Carolina, and will continue proving me right. ;)
 

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Virginia

Goes to a team that is 0-5 and desperate for anything. John Fox is desperate too - for his job. We'll see how long this lasts with the kittens.
 

fansince62

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Goes to a team that is 0-5 and desperate for anything. John Fox is desperate too - for his job. We'll see how long this lasts with the kittens.
but the Skins weren't desperate when they ran 10,000 WRs thru OTAs/Trng camp? cmon now....Smith is injured and Thomas is a viable option. Just cuz the Shanahan's couldn't bridge an apparent culture/communication gap doesn't mean other teams can't. I hope he does well.
 

Yusuf06

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Agreed Fansince. Thomas has a little growing up to do even now, however I don't get the idea that he's a malcontent or team cancer type guy. He attended OTAs, showed up in great shape, kept his mouth shut other than saying the appropriate things about losing his starting spot, and in general played the part of a good soldier. IMHO given the positive cultural change happening with this team, he could and should have been given until next season to get with the program. Cutting him and getting nothing in exchange for a 2nd rounder just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, sorry.

OK so Shanny isn't into emotional intensity. Well, sorta. I mean he hasn't cut Orakpo yet. But I digress. Even so, I think the smarter move would have been to accept his efforts and try to get him to tone down and channel the emotion.

I like the guy and I hope he does well with his career down the line. If he ultimately blows up, it would be a great lesson to the younger Shanahan about hubris that will serve him well when he takes over from his Dad.
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fansince62

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Agreed Fansince. Thomas has a little growing up to do even now, however I don't get the idea that he's a malcontent or team cancer type guy. He attended OTAs, showed up in great shape, kept his mouth shut other than saying the appropriate things about losing his starting spot, and in general played the part of a good soldier. IMHO given the positive cultural change happening with this team, he could and should have been given until next season to get with the program. Cutting him and getting nothing in exchange for a 2nd rounder just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, sorry.

OK so Shanny isn't into emotional intensity. Well, sorta. I mean he hasn't cut Orakpo yet. But I digress. Even so, I think the smarter move would have been to accept his efforts and try to get him to tone down and channel the emotion.

I like the guy and I hope he does well with his career down the line. If he ultimately blows up, it would be a great lesson to the younger Shanahan about hubris that will serve him well when he takes over from his Dad.
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well said!
 

Goaldeje

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James Madison

What are you all basing this love for DT on? He had one good game in three years. Anthony Armstrong clearly outplayed him in the preseason. Hell, Roydell Wiliams who was out of football for two years before this year looked better in the preseason to me. I'm not real sure why we didn't just cut him after TC; at that point I would have kept him all year. I guess that's the only place i disagree with Shanny on.

But you all seem to think he will contribute right away, and maybe he will given the crapiness of Carolina's receiving "corps" without Steve Smith. Just not sure why you think he would have been a difference maker for us if we kept him.
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Miles Monroe

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OK so Shanny isn't into emotional intensity. Well, sorta. I mean he hasn't cut Orakpo yet. But I digress. Even so, I think the smarter move would have been to accept his efforts and try to get him to tone down and channel the emotion.
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I don't think emotional intensity was the problem....

"Everybody has got a different mindset on what work means, what dedication means, what commitment means," Shanahan said yesterday. "All I told him is that if you want to be the best player you want to be, that commitment is going to have to be stronger."

In retrospect, Thomas believes that his side projects hurt his standing with Shanahan. He plans to re-commit himself to the sport.

"I'm going to eliminate all those other distractions that might have others thinking it's a bad thing for me," Thomas said. "I'm just going to focus on football and be a football player until my career is over with."
Claimed by Panthers, Thomas vows to improve

Sounds like a lack of focus, and dedication to me.
 

Sarge

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Side projects? Really?

Maybe he's a crackhead on the side. Who knows?
 

fansince62

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What are you all basing this love for DT on? He had one good game in three years. Anthony Armstrong clearly outplayed him in the preseason. Hell, Roydell Wiliams who was out of football for two years before this year looked better in the preseason to me. I'm not real sure why we didn't just cut him after TC; at that point I would have kept him all year. I guess that's the only place i disagree with Shanny on.

But you all seem to think he will contribute right away, and maybe he will given the crapiness of Carolina's receiving "corps" without Steve Smith. Just not sure why you think he would have been a difference maker for us if we kept him.
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1) not based on love..whatever that means

2) never said he would contribute right away....I wished him success

3) hard to compete when you aren't playing in the games

4) we did see him play well at times - despite being on an all-time crappy team over the last 3 years.

5) Roydell sure has done well! a real all-star! why he is still on this team is beyond me.

6) Never said he would be a difference maker.

7) He has obvious physical characteristics - something a team that doesn't have A SINGLE RECEIVER SHAPED TO A MODERN OFFENSE could use. This team will forever have major receiver suckage problems until they find the sorts modern offenses use. Why do you think the team ran through so many receivers during the off-season? why do you think we will be wasting yet more fraft picks/FA signings next off-season on receivers? they know they don't have the right mold of player - there was at least an outside chance Thomas could have been developed. but the team evidently decided 1 week into pre-season that wasn't in the cards. 1 week!!!! there's more going on there than headphones and modeling.

8) Glad Armstrong has a few catches and one TD. He's not a gamebreaker and the league will figure him out soon enough. He's suited to be a Y receiver. Doesn't have the size to be a real factor in the Red Zone - something the Skins lack - and not much use as a blocker. He has 7 catches so far - not exactly earth shaking. He has good hands, runs his routes. oh...apparently some are enamored by the fact that he keeps his mouth shut. great. singular virtue.

9) Whatever else....Shanahan has an ego. He appears to pull the plug fast. His system is a good one - especially when Alex Gibbs is there to make it work...but his track record also suggests issues judging personnel (he royally screwed up the Broncos later in his tenure there). Per what Yusof posted, this struck me as a cultural divide in which the coach couldn't communicate with the player. fine - we have a "my way or the highway" kinda coach. Over time we will see if that ends up costing the team talent and championships.
 
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Goaldeje

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James Madison

Your damning of Roydell and faint praise of AA only serve to strengthen my argument. DT couldn't beat those guys out. Did Shanahan have something against him from the get go? I dunno, I suppose that's possible, but i doubt we will ever know. More likely is what Miles quoted above, that he wasn't dedicated. If you have to rededicate yourself after two years in the league when you haven't done ****, not sure I want you on my team.

And I'm pretty sure Shanahan doesn't. :)

Yes, DT had two seasons of "football" under Zorn. But he also had a real, honest God Super Bowl winning coach come in here this off season, a real chance to impress the new guy, who is proven. And now, after he gets cut, he decides to rededicate? Uhhhh, ok.

I think this might have been a wake up call for Jim, and I genuinely hope he succeeds in CAR or wherever he goes next, but it wasn't gonna happen here. Even if Shannahakept him and nurtured him and gave him playing time, that quote above tells me what I need to know. Good luck to him, hopefully he can use this as a springboard.
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fansince62

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Your damning of Roydell and faint praise of AA only serve to strengthen my argument. DT couldn't beat those guys out. Did Shanahan have something against him from the get go? I dunno, I suppose that's possible, but i doubt we will ever know. More likely is what Miles quoted above, that he wasn't dedicated. If you have to rededicate yourself after two years in the league when you haven't done ****, not sure I want you on my team.

And I'm pretty sure Shanahan doesn't. :)

Yes, DT had two seasons of "football" under Zorn. But he also had a real, honest God Super Bowl winning coach come in here this off season, a real chance to impress the new guy, who is proven. And now, after he gets cut, he decides to rededicate? Uhhhh, ok.

I think this might have been a wake up call for Jim, and I genuinely hope he succeeds in CAR or wherever he goes next, but it wasn't gonna happen here. Even if Shannahakept him and nurtured him and gave him playing time, that quote above tells me what I need to know. Good luck to him, hopefully he can use this as a springboard.
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you're not following the argument: I'm suggesting there were factors other than "performance" that led to this outcome. as for SB coach...yea....12 Elway years ago. Again....he screwed up and was fired (again...I might add). I'm also seeing the other end of this: SHANAHAN failed to draw out the talent. And he obviously quit trying before pre-season was even a quarter done. I'm also saying...great...we're still stuck with an incredibly bad receiving corps that just jettisoned the only person even remotely typecast to what modern offenses are deploying at the wideout position. AA will be a nice player, but...and I'll go out on a limb here...he aint gonna make it over the long haul as an X or Z receiver. he's a natural slot receiver.

decide after the Gints game whether you'd rather have a Nicks or an AA. hope I eat my words....
 

Yusuf06

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As with Fansince, it's not about DT "love" for me. I do like his intensity and emotion but it's primarily a practical issue for me. We have too many holes to fill just to get to above average to piss away a 2nd round pick like that. More on that point later though. Moreover, the player in question is at one of our weakest spots. If he were a total knucklehead like AH, perhaps I could see it. However as I said earlier DT seemed to be making steps in the right direction. Granted, we can't know what went on behind the scenes though.

As for the modeling/acting thing, as we always hear, the NFL is a business. Any player that doesn't have AH type financial security would be patently stupid to NOT have a plan B for their post NFL financial well being. As long as it isn't interfering with the player's on the job performance, I could care less about it. Now acting/modeling wouldn't be my personal choice for a safety net, but that's just me being silly as usual. :)

For the record, I like Shanny the coach. He's responsible for most, if not all of the positive changes we've seen in the team. However I've said from day one that I've never liked Shanny the personnel guy. So far I haven't seen a whole lot that would change my mind.

Finally, if you want to accuse me of having "manlove" for one of our players, try L. Alexander. Now that's[\i] a dude I'm all about.
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Goaldeje

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James Madison

you're not following the argument: I'm suggesting there were factors other than "performance" that led to this outcome. as for SB coach...yea....12 Elway years ago. Again....he screwed up and was fired (again...I might add). I'm also seeing the other end of this: SHANAHAN failed to draw out the talent. And he obviously quit trying before pre-season was even a quarter done. I'm also saying...great...we're still stuck with an incredibly bad receiving corps that just jettisoned the only person even remotely typecast to what modern offenses are deploying at the wideout position. AA will be a nice player, but...and I'll go out on a limb here...he aint gonna make it over the long haul as an X or Z receiver. he's a natural slot receiver.

decide after the Gints game whether you'd rather have a Nicks or an AA. hope I eat my words....

Wait. So we could have gotten Hakeem Nicks somehow? Did I miss a potential trade, DT for Nicks? Cause if so, then our entire FO should be fired for not executing that immediately.

OTOH, if you mean to compare DT and Nicks because they have similar body types, I would like for you to reconsider your position. If you think for a moment that Shanny would bench and then cut a player of Nicks abilities and drive, I'm gonna have to call you crazy.

Your argument, if I am following, appears to be that we should draft on body type? Big Robert McCune fan, were ya :). Fansince, I know what you mean, but i just don't think keeping a low performer around simply because he fits your (or anyone's) preconceived notion of what an optimal performer looks or acts like seems silly. He obviously wasn't doing stuff behind the scenes to get it done. We can't keep him around hoping he will eventually get it forever, can we?
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fansince62

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Wait. So we could have gotten Hakeem Nicks somehow? Did I miss a potential trade, DT for Nicks? Cause if so, then our entire FO should be fired for not executing that immediately.

OTOH, if you mean to compare DT and Nicks because they have similar body types, I would like for you to reconsider your position. If you think for a moment that Shanny would bench and then cut a player of Nicks abilities and drive, I'm gonna have to call you crazy.

Your argument, if I am following, appears to be that we should draft on body type? Big Robert McCune fan, were ya :). Fansince, I know what you mean, but i just don't think keeping a low performer around simply because he fits your (or anyone's) preconceived notion of what an optimal performer looks or acts like seems silly. He obviously wasn't doing stuff behind the scenes to get it done. We can't keep him around hoping he will eventually get it forever, can we?
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cmon now Goal...the point is to determine which sort of receiver has the greatest range of capabilities in offenses used these days.

as for the rest.......it reflects a pattern in the NFL that has been underway for several years. obviously body dimensions are only part of the equation....but given the way offenses are run these days....the X and Z receivers are generally bigger. when and if defenses take Armstrong seriously....they will start pressing him at the line. he aint worth ka ka in run blocking and he's too small to fight larger DBs. to repeat...he's best suited for the slot receiver role. having AA in there at the Z position limits the options that can be called.

DT wasn't a low performer any more than 1 TD 7 catch Armstrong is. First, he did perform as kick returner. Second, he never got a chance on the field. we'll never agree on this. IMO...this is in part about DT's work habits and a lot about Shanahan's ego/inflexibility.
 

Goaldeje

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James Madison

Fair enough. I see your point, I just disagree. I think it has more to do with performance. I may give Shanny too much credit though. I am just desperate to have a professional in there after Zorn!

;)
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Miles Monroe

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8) Glad Armstrong has a few catches and one TD. He's not a gamebreaker and the league will figure him out soon enough. He's suited to be a Y receiver. Doesn't have the size to be a real factor in the Red Zone - something the Skins lack - and not much use as a blocker. He has 7 catches so far - not exactly earth shaking. He has good hands, runs his routes. oh...apparently some are enamored by the fact that he keeps his mouth shut. great. singular virtue.
I just couldn't let this one go without comment. You should be thrilled that there's a young receiver that got brought in, and has made a few plays. There was a Redskin who was five ft nine, and 180, who got his start in the in the USFL for a season, came to the Skins, and excelled. He wore # 84, and has a couple of super bowl rings.

Armstrong is five ft eleven, 182, and shows the type of tenacity needed to make it in this league. Will he be another Gary Clark.... who knows, but I'm quite happy to have him. People will soon respect him, as they'll have no choice.
 

fansince62

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I just couldn't let this one go without comment. You should be thrilled that there's a young receiver that got brought in, and has made a few plays. There was a Redskin who was five ft nine, and 180, who got his start in the in the USFL for a season, came to the Skins, and excelled. He wore # 84, and has a couple of super bowl rings.

Armstrong is five ft eleven, 182, and shows the type of tenacity needed to make it in this league. Will he be another Gary Clark.... who knows, but I'm quite happy to have him. People will soon respect him, as they'll have no choice.

said Redskin played over 15 yrs ago...different NFL. I'm not arguing AA will be a bust. I'm trying to get across the point that in terms of how current offenses are built.......he doesn't fit any position other than the Y/slot. And we're not using him in that role. The issue isn't what he can produce....but the options lost by playing him at the Z. This team will still be looking for a bigger receiver next off-season.
 

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