This is not a Joke

[Boone]

But did we really have to spend our highest pick on our strongest position, rather than go through yet another miserable (or questionable at best) Safety situation, this year ?
I like Trent Murphy, but he's a luxury and not a need on this team, relatively speaking

A starting linebacker was a 'luxury' - after losing one of the best linebacker/defensive leaders in the last decade? I think you could argue that having reliable starting linebackers is far less a luxury than a great safety. Safeties are the tight ends of the defense. Having a great one can be a game changer. But most teams are happy with just having solid players at that position. And if we'd taken a QB, or a WR, or a RB with the first pick, it would be fair to say we spent our highest pick on our strongest position.

 

[MikeSr619]

Ryan Clark wasn't that good his first time in dc?

He was a rookie and studied with one of our best. He left and had an amazing career because of his time here.

 

[TomE]

On draft day we don't know who they had on the board, safety wise, and a prime dude may not have been available to pick.
I've heard many a time about the need to build front to back on either side of the ball so adding what they figure is 'best available' to the front seven on D is not too bad an idea in my book.

Hatch is unknown but there is some local buzz about Baker coming on strong late last year and he's picked it up so far this year, some young blood for the line both inside and out.

 

[fansince62]

Ryan Clark wasn't that good his first time in dc?

He was a rookie and studied with one of our best. He left and had an amazing career because of his time here.

he wasn't.

I saw him live and watched on TV. Always a lot of separation between he and the receivers. As you may recall...no one was bent out of shape when he left. he was never, ever a great athlete. he's older now and wiser. we shall see. who did he play next to in Pittsburgh?

 

[fansince62]

A starting linebacker was a 'luxury' - after losing one of the best linebacker/defensive leaders in the last decade? I think you could argue that having reliable starting linebackers is far less a luxury than a great safety. Safeties are the tight ends of the defense. Having a great one can be a game changer. But most teams are happy with just having solid players at that position. And if we'd taken a QB, or a WR, or a RB with the first pick, it would be fair to say we spent our highest pick on our strongest position.

the guy we drafted was not intended to replace Fletch...an inside linebacker. he was drafted as insurance for what is basically a stand-up d-end...Rak.

anywho....not trying to provoke a fight. I think the offense is going to be dynamite this season. I think the defense will be marginally better...but I really don't see a major upgrade talent/youth wise and I believe the best pick-up (Hatch) is 2 to 3 years tops at a high level. there's lots of work to be done yet on this defense...IMO.

 

[MikeSr619]

You're revising things to fit your agenda

He was good, people liked him and we're upset he left

We all watched the same games. You've just got a different perspective than anyone else.

 

[fansince62]

You're revising things to fit your agenda

He was good, people liked him and we're upset he left

We all watched the same games. You've just got a different perspective than anyone else.

got stats do ya? not.

I don't have an agenda. that's crazy talk.

I know what I saw. you can disagree! either way doesn't change the fact that a problem that has been around basically since Sean's career was senselessly ended has yet to be fixed.

 

[Fear The Spear]

A starting linebacker was a 'luxury' - after losing one of the best linebacker/defensive leaders in the last decade?

First, that's assuming that Murphy ends up taking Fletcher's place - which is far from a certainty at this point. That's not his natural position, and Gruden himself indicated Murphy would be used, or at looked at, in other roles.

Second, even considering with the loss of Fletcher : our Linebackers, whether it's Inside or Outside, or the Linebacker unit as a whole, are not nearly the dire need is at Safety.

I think you could argue that having reliable starting linebackers is far less a luxury than a great safety. Safeties are the tight ends of the defense. Having a great one can be a game changer. But most teams are happy with just having solid players at that position.

That's the problem. We're not in a position of "just having solid players" at the Safety position. It's quite a bit worse than that.
And I don't see the comparison to Tight End. A team can survive with a sub-par TE. But if you have sub-par Safeties, you will be targeted, exposed, and taken advantage of all day, with big plays, by the opposing QBs

And if we'd taken a QB, or a WR, or a RB with the first pick, it would be fair to say we spent our highest pick on our strongest position.

We have 2 bookend Pro Bowlers at Murphy's natural position, so one could easily argue that's our strongest position, or at least one of the top ones

 

[Om]

End of the day, we still have a defense coordinated by a guy who as never produced a consitently strong defense in his long career. The players he has at his disposal heading into 2014 are improved on paper and have potential, but not pedigree. It is fair to expect improvement, but how much of it is impossible to predict. The only sure thing I believe we would all agree to is that it is highly unlikely this will prove to be a dominant, game-changing defense. Not in 2014.

So the hope is that the additions that have been made will raise the overall level of play from what we've seen over the last few years .. and that that, coupled with improved support from special teams and the offense, will result in a defense capable of holding its own and giving the team as a whole a chance to gel and compete for a playoff spot.

 

[Goaldeje]

Yeah, that's about where I am. This whole season, and the foreseeable future seasons, comes down to Robert's health. If he plays like he did in 12, we're gonna be good. If he plays like he did last year, we're not. In my mind, it's that simple.

 

[fansince62]

Well, I guess my question would be - if there's no call to spin all of our safety situation negatively - why are you spinning our safety situation so negatively I think we can all agree the safety position is one of the glaring weaknesses on this team looking at it longterm.

Meriweather and Clark are clearly stop gaps because we couldn't fill our needs with young players. Rambo - he'll be given a season or two to demonstrate whether he can learn the mental side of the game and turn into a reliable guy. I see no evidence of it so far, but he WAS a rookie (and we are incredibly impatient with rookies). Thomas has major talent - if he can stay healthy. He has overcome a lot to even be in the conversation, I just wouldn't be so quick to write him off.

I'm not spinning it negatively. everything I posted is factual....including poor safety play ever since Sean died. I haven't written Thomas off. What I have learned is that the only thing that really counts in football...as in life...is performance. we can all get wrapped up in the media driven beauty shows....but until it happens.....it's hype....or unfulfilled promise if you like. as we sit here, before pre-season games, I think it's not unreasonable to accept that the safety position hasn't improved over last season, that Hatcher elevates the defense...how much is unkown......Haz may be able to scheme with more degrees of freedom....but the talent level really hasn't increased all that much. I do like what I heard from Thomas last season in terms of his intelligence and maturity. but that's not the same as performance...same goes for murphy. My guess is that if we are lucky this will be a middle of the road defense.

performance will tell.

 

[fansince62]

And fan - weren't you the guy chastising me for my overall negativity a couple months back?

now you're making me mad!!!

chastising you is a virtual cyber death wish! I prefer to think of it as occasional elderly knowledge....a passing of wisdom from one generation to the next.....a helping hand across the divide......the change you've been waiting for......the Navy once again helping a lost Marine......a Nittany Lion shining the light of truth upon a wahoo.......

 

[fansince62]

End of the day, we still have a defense coordinated by a guy who as never produced a consitently strong defense in his long career. The players he has at his disposal heading into 2014 are improved on paper and have potential, but not pedigree. It is fair to expect improvement, but how much of it is impossible to predict. The only sure thing I believe we would all agree to is that it is highly unlikely this will prove to be a dominant, game-changing defense. Not in 2014.

So the hope is that the additions that have been made will raise the overall level of play from what we've seen over the last few years .. and that that, coupled with improved support from special teams and the offense, will result in a defense capable of holding its own and giving the team as a whole a chance to gel and compete for a playoff spot.

not an unreasonable way of looking at things!

 

[Boone]

Middle of the road defense would be a huge improvement. I think we will see better defensive backfield play across the board this season. Clark is limited athletically but doesn't make a lot of mistakes, and Thomas is going to be solid. Any positive press he gets is only 'hype' if he can't live up to it. We also have some young talent at CB. And of course performance, ultimately, will tell

And thanks a lot Om, for reminding us all about the big pink hairless elephant in the room.

 

[Boone]

now you're making me mad!!!

chastising you is a virtual cyber death wish! I prefer to think of it as occasional elderly knowledge....a passing of wisdom from one generation to the next.....a helping hand across the divide......the change you've been waiting for......the Navy once again helping a lost Marine......a Nittany Lion shining the light of truth upon a wahoo.......

Aww man - I thought I was the sage voice of elderly wisdom in this analogy?

I dont really disagree with your overall 'wait and see' attitude, but you were rightfully all over my ass not too long ago for the exact same 'glass half empty' assessments.

 

[fansince62]

Aww man - I thought I was the sage voice of elderly wisdom in this analogy?

I dont really disagree with your overall 'wait and see' attitude, but you were rightfully all over my ass not too long ago for the exact same 'glass half empty' assessments.

and you know what my signature used to be:

some people see the glass as half empty

some people see the glass as half full

I ask why the glass is the wrong size

 

[Elephant]

And thanks a lot Om, for reminding us all about the big pink hairless elephant in the room.

I am not pink nor hairless!

 

[Miles Monroe]

But did we really have to spend our highest pick on our strongest position, rather than go through yet another miserable (or questionable at best) Safety situation, this year ?
I like Trent Murphy, but he's a luxury and not a need on this team, relatively speaking

Murphy isn't a luxury, he's an insurance policy.... OLB, likely starting quality, locked up for 4 years while we have a starter who's future with the team is uncertain.

 

[Fear The Spear]

Murphy isn't a luxury, he's an insurance policy.... OLB, likely starting quality, locked up for 4 years while we have a starter who's future with the team is uncertain.

But why choose to fill a future need, instead of an immediate need ?

And like you said yourself, Rak's future is uncertain, meaning it's not even definite that he's leaving, so it's actually choosing to a fill a possible future need, rather than a definite immediate one.

Not to mention, we all saw that Rob Jackson was not exactly a slouch, when it came to replacing Orakpo

So, spending your very top pick on a possible insurance policy ? A team coming off a 3-13 season, with multiple, major holes to fill doesn't have that luxury. In fact, rarely do you see a team coming off a Super Bowl win, go to that extreme.

No matter what angle you look at the move, it doesn't look wise at all

 

[Miles Monroe]

But why choose to fill a future need, instead of an immediate need ?

And like you said yourself, Rak's future is uncertain, meaning it's not even definite that he's leaving, so it's actually choosing to a fill a possible future need, rather than a definite immediate one.

Not to mention, we all saw that Rob Jackson was not exactly a slouch, when it came to replacing Orakpo

So, spending your very top pick on a possible insurance policy ? A team coming off a 3-13 season, with multiple, major holes to fill doesn't have that luxury. In fact, rarely do you see a team coming off a Super Bowl win, go to that extreme.

No matter what angle you look at the move, it doesn't look wise at all

It doesn't look wise from your point of view. Problem is, neither of us are behind the scenes, and know what the staff is thinking. I look at it as Rak being gone next season. Unless he's in the top 5 for OLB's, I don't see the team breaking the bank to keep him, and he's looking for big money. As you said, Jackson is no slouch, but if we didn't pick up Murphy, who's behind Jackson. The quality drops off quickly... and Rak has missed a lot of time due to injuries. The team has pretty much said Rak has to prove himself publicly, and he's said he has nothing to prove. It doesn't ring with a healthy tone to me. Right now, we have two servicable safeties, and at least one potentially long term answer on the roster. The better we are up front, the less the secondary will be exposed, and that seems to be the mindset of the staff.