The Gruden Files - Year Two

[Om]

with due respect Sir...get it right. deliberately or not, you are offering a binary choice. and that is not what has been put forth wee4k after dreary week of this conversation. the pov expressed, from day 1, has been that griffin failed, but so has this team and so has this coach.

No sir. The context of a single point in a larger conversation matters.

I am asking those of you incessantly beating the "Gruden is a failure and an idiot" drum to consider that given his inherited QB's failures, AND the well-documented inherited laundry list of colossal team failures the past 20 years, shouting from the rooftops that "Gruden is a failure!", after his ROOKIE season of trying to dig out from under this inherited crapfest, is reactionary at best.

Doesn't mean he didn't make mistakes. Doesn't mean he'll be the next Don Shula OR the next Rick Venturi. Just means that writing his epitaph in epithets, after one year, like you and others have done over and over and over again, is beyond the pale.

Of course, if that isn't you I'm talking about, my apologies.

 

[CounterTrey]

No sir. The context of a single point in a larger conversation matters.

I am asking those of you incessantly beating the "Gruden is a failure and an idiot" drum to consider that given his inherited QB's failures, AND the well-documented inherited laundry list of colossal team failures the past 20 years, shouting from the rooftops that "Gruden is a failure!", after his ROOKIE season of trying to dig out from under this inherited crapfest, is reactionary at best.

Doesn't mean he didn't make mistakes. Doesn't mean he'll be the next Don Shula OR the next Rick Venturi. Just means that writing his epitaph in epithets, after one year, like you and others have done over and over and over again, is beyond the pale.

Of course, if that isn't you I'm talking about, my apologies.

The amusing thing to me here is that the EXACT same thing has occurred with Robert but the double standard kicks in and he's not subject to the same leeway. If Gruden gets extra time to adjust to new things then why doesn't Griffin who's been coached the same way his entire life until VERY recently? I think if he was getting the level of patience you call for us to give to Gruden this argument might go a bit differently.

 

[Om]

Gruden = one year.

Robert = three years.

If Gruden makes the same amount of progress in three years Bob apparently did, I'll join ya at the front of the Pitchfork Brigade.

 

[CounterTrey]

Oh and Om to be fair to myself at least I am NOT going JUST by one year's results. It's the incredibly low level of competence that gets me. I get that every rookie HC has a learning curve and every one deserves the time to get it right. I've always been one who preached patience. But sometimes the level of incompetence is so amazing that to improve a ton would still have you on a pretty crappy level. This might not seem fair to some but I knew a few games into the Zorn tenure that he was never going to make it and the vibe I get with Gruden is the same. He's not HC material to me. He has so far to go in so many areas that I'm not interested in waiting for him to catch up. He needs to go the route of Kubiak and go learn some more and gain perspective about how he needs to change. So your overall point when making a general argument is spot on...generally a guy needs more than one year to prove himself one way or another. But occasionally a guy comes along that shows much more quickly what he's made of. It could be a Tomlin or it could be a Zorn. Gruden aint no Tomlin.

 

[CounterTrey]

Gruden = one year.

Robert = three years.

If Gruden makes the same amount of progress in three years Bob apparently did, I'll join ya at the front of the Pitchfork Brigade.

No not accurate. Robert has ONE year in this system. You guys are using different standards.

 

[Om]

CT,

Reasonable people can look at same performance by a rookie head coach and NOT read into it all the incompetence and cluelessness that you do.

I marvel every day at how sure some of you guys are that you have the kind of information and evidence in hand to make those kinds of determinations.

 

[Om]

No not accurate. Robert has ONE year in this system. You guys are using different standards.

Not accurate either. I'm not talking about "the system" Gruden is trying to run here (and let's not make it a doctoral level offense). I'm talking about what Kyle, Mike, Gruden last year, and Gruden, Cavanaugh and Wonder Kid this year, and many observers at practice and who study film have been saying pretty consistently since day one:

Robert has struggled mightily to grasp the most basic aspects of the NFL passing game.

You've heard it too, right?

 

[CounterTrey]

The converse is true. Reasonable people can look at a HC performance over a sample size of a Calendar year and make rational observations based on that person's ACTIONS. Do enough dumb things and people wil think you're either dumb or foolish...ahem! After all that's what's been going on with Griffin since day one. We can do this all day bud, you keep saying it's wrong to judge Gruden this way yet many amongst our fanbase and on this board have been doing exactly that with Griffin since the day we drafted him and they know no more about him and what's actually happened than I do about Gruden. We're ALL making our assertions based on performance based facts. You interpret your way and be amazed at how I draw some of my conclusions and I'll do the same, neither has a higher state of legitimacy since none of us has actual inside dish or personal observational knowledge. We're all on the outside looking in. For me I've seen enough of this guy's act in public to be convinced he's not going to right the ship here. You don't agree and that's fine. What I CAN do without is being basically told I'm an idiot (not saying you're doing this but it's a common occurrence in the whole RG3/Gruden/Redskins thing).

 

[CounterTrey]

Not accurate either. I'm not talking about "the system" Gruden is trying to run here (and let's not make it a doctoral level offense). I'm talking about what Kyle, Mike, Gruden last year, and Gruden, Cavanaugh and Wonder Kid this year, and many observers at practice and who study film have been saying pretty consistently since day one:

Robert has struggled mightily to grasp the most basic aspects of the NFL passing game.

You've heard it too, right?

yea but I've also heard from Gruden on down that he's improved a TON this year and was good enough for him to be the starter until he was injured. That's the inconsistency and bullshit aspect of it that I can't abide Om. And the Shanahan deal is so far separated in so many ways that it's totally unfair to use that against him unless you're also going to recognize that when he was used right and actually protected he was lethal...downright devastating to the NFL. So he's had 3 years in 3 different systems so yea my comment WAS accurate.

 

[fansince62]

No sir. The context of a single point in a larger conversation matters.

I am asking those of you incessantly beating the "Gruden is a failure and an idiot" drum to consider that given his inherited QB's failures, AND the well-documented inherited laundry list of colossal team failures the past 20 years, shouting from the rooftops that "Gruden is a failure!", after his ROOKIE season of trying to dig out from under this inherited crapfest, is reactionary at best.

Doesn't mean he didn't make mistakes. Doesn't mean he'll be the next Don Shula OR the next Rick Venturi. Just means that writing his epitaph in epithets, after one year, like you and others have done over and over and over again, is beyond the pale.

Of course, if that isn't you I'm talking about, my apologies.

ok...I see the objective. well.....guess we'll have to live with it. failure is in the eyes of the beholder - every mother loves even the most retrograde son. BGO being the great site that it is......differences of opinion are respected and honored.

out of curiosity....if you jump into a car with a driver who constantly wanders over the medium strip do you think "well....give him another 2-3 years...then we'll know if he has it in him to be a good driver"? or do you get the eff out of the car as soon as it is safe to do so? point being: 2-3 years probation itself can quickly become a meaningless cliché.

 

[Om]

We're all dogfaces. We're all idiots. But we're AMERICAN idiots!

Cheers.

*

Prayer to the Gridiron Gods:

At this time next year, for the love of all that is holy, let us be arguing about how many wins we will need to secure home field advantage.

Hail and Amen

 

[CounterTrey]

Hailelujah.

Still I'd rather be arguing with you hooligans than actually thinking about today's significance. So thanks

 

[Smoot Point]

Gruden = one year.

Robert = three years.

If Gruden makes the same amount of progress in three years Bob apparently did, I'll join ya at the front of the Pitchfork Brigade.

Gruden has been a football coach for about 17 years AFTER completing a career as a professional QB in the Arena league... He was a HC of Arena league for 8 years and UFL for 1 year. He's been in the NFL on various teams as OC and offensive assistant (which would be similar to him being a 2nd/3rd string HC), so it isn't a simple comparison.

If you want a larger sample size with Gruden, you are going to get it... but probably only until the bye week. His handling of every QB on the team has been really bad. He brought a journeyman into a situation where we already had 2 QBs who needed development. Gruden even risked that journeyman's career by starting McCoy against the Giants after he already had a neck injury, then when he was knocked out of that game in the opening drive, he was put on the season ending IR. I would've fired him after last season.

 

[Smoot Point]

Lastly, Gruden is a failure because Bruce Allen was a failure in his one year building a coaching staff that was comprised entirely of his Tampa Bay connections. Biggest reason to move on from Gruden is because you've moved on from Bruce Allen having those responsibilities. Admit the mistake and move on quickly from it... You can't make lemonade with these lemons. What did they do instead? Let's add Joe Barry (Tampa connection)... Screw that. Fire everyone and let Scott pick who he wants developing the players he assembles. Let Bruce handle the new stadium, the politics, and the occasional firing that might have to happen (so McCloughan doesn't get depressed again).

 

[stevenaa]

We'll know what we know with time. Hopefully Gruden does a good job and Kirk turns out to be Good Kirk.

 

[Primus Porcus]

London Fletcher has a bit more of an inside line than just about anyone on this board I'm betting. I guess he's spinning it too.

You're right though...we brought in the reputed "QB Guru" who had actually played the position himself to fix...the Defense, or was it something else? We brought in the QB guru because he had a stellar HC resume...oh wait. Yea you're right though, he WASN'T brought in to fix the ailing QB situation.

Sorry to bring this back up from a couple pages but this is what jumped out at me.


This bolded part is more likely what we're talking about... and it does not include the name RG3. Being brought in to fix the QB situation very well could mean evaluating and assessing Griffin. In doing so, he may have seen enough to then move on.

 

[Smoot Point]

Being brought in to fix the QB situation very well could mean evaluating and assessing Griffin. In doing so, he may have seen enough to then move on.

When it's just Gruden & McVay doing the evaluation of QB, developing QBs, being HC, being OC, calling plays, game planning... everything else a HC, OC & QB Coaches are supposed to do... What could go wrong?

I don't care how smart McVay is, how could we possibly expect anyone (Coaches or Players) to succeed under these conditions?

 

[Primus Porcus]

When it's just Gruden & McVay doing the evaluation of QB, developing QBs, being HC, being OC, calling plays, game planning... everything else a HC, OC & QB Coaches are supposed to do... What could go wrong?

I don't care how smart McVay is, how could we possibly expect anyone (Coaches or Players) to succeed under these conditions?

What about Cavanaugh?

 

[CounterTrey]

Sorry to bring this back up from a couple pages but this is what jumped out at me.


This bolded part is more likely what we're talking about... and it does not include the name RG3. Being brought in to fix the QB situation very well could mean evaluating and assessing Griffin. In doing so, he may have seen enough to then move on.

And again we come back to the B.S. aspect of it. Gruden has been telling us right up until the concussion that Griffin was improving significantly and was his starter. Suddenly in one game that changed...or he was BS'ing all along, or worse yet he's wishy washy and keeps changing his mind.

 

[stevenaa]

And again we come back to the B.S. aspect of it. Gruden has been telling us right up until the concussion that Griffin was improving significantly and was his starter. Suddenly in one game that changed...or he was BS'ing all along, or worse yet he's wishy washy and keeps changing his mind.

Or, as has been stated numerous times, maybe he was doing everything he could to build RG's confidence and relieve some pressure so he'd go out and work on improving without looking over his shoulder. Do you want him to be truthful if he things RG is sucking, like he was truthful last year, or should be build him up like everyone who was pissed at his comments last year said he should be doing. You can't have it both ways. He either builds the player up in public or he tells the truth. It also prevented a lot of media hysteria. It may well be that the players were operating under an open competition while the public was fed what it was fed to keep the noise down.