The Gruden Files - Year Two

[McD5]

We'll know by week five.

But, last year there was NO improvement in any unit.

Did you miss the worst ST unit in NFL history the year prior? Where the only question was whether we'd give up a kickoff return for a TD, or a punt return for a TD? Those improved last year.

We're making good progress on this board today.

We now all agree that STs have improved, and that the QBs have improved. Now all that's left is the defense. Well done.

 

[Ax]

We've been offseason/preseason monsters for a while McD.

NOTHING has improved on the field until the games count.

WE ALL want it to be so.

 

[CounterTrey]

You're categorically stating he was "lying" about anything. You don't know that. You look at what he said earlier, and because what he says later doesn't jibe with it, you're discounting the possibility that the information at his disposal in the interim changed.

What IS interesting to me is cogitating about how Gibbs 1.0, in his rookie year to boot, might have dealt with today's circus atmosphere surrounding the NFL, where every breath, word, expression, tone of voice, play call, etc., is instantly parsed, analyzed, and wrapped up as neat little packages of Truth by EVERYONE with an inclination and internet connection.

As to Belichick ... perhaps we should read some of what was being said after his rookie year with the Browns ... or first year with the Patriots ... you know, before he became a genius.

Well we don't KNOW anything then if that's the level of scrutiny. What we DO have is a pretty good body of evidence to conclude that he was indeed lying. I look at what he said as recently as a few DAYS before the concussion yet suddenly after it he's not only not good enough to start but demoted to 3rd string? Please...that B.S. doesn't pass the sniff test.

one glaring double standard has already been pointed out here and it absolutely screams for attention...so we're giving the head coach more than a year's leeway when he hasn't done squat for the team but we can't give the same guy who brought us our arguably ONLY year worth crowing about in 20 the same leeway?

As for Gibbs:

Former Washington Redskins head coach, Hall of Famer and Nascar team owner, Joe Gibbs isn’t done with Robert Griffin III yet.

On 106.7 The Fan with The Sports Junkies (via The Washington Post’s Dan Steinberg, Gibbs said Griffin has proved he can play, at this point, it’s a matter of getting healthy.

“I think first of all the thing that you can say about Robert Griffin is that he won the division his very first year, as a rookie,” said Gibbs. “We all saw him. He made great plays. You can’t go in that division and win the division unless you’ve got a quarterback that’s really operating. I think he’s proven to people he can do that, and so I think it’s a matter of health, the health issues, making sure that he’s totally healthy.

“And I think you’ve got somebody there that’s got great talent. Things haven’t gone his way. He’s been hurt. But I think you’ve got somebody there that is a real talent, and has proven that he can do it. It’s not like we’re guessing. This guy’s won the NFC East, and I know how hard that is to do. So I think we’ve got a great talent there. We’re going to start Kirk [Cousins] this week, [and] I think there’s probably still some questions there about Robert, making sure he’s totally healthy.”
”

 

[CounterTrey]

Did you miss the worst ST unit in NFL history the year prior? Where the only question was whether we'd give up a kickoff return for a TD, or a punt return for a TD? Those improved last year.

We're making good progress on this board today.

We now all agree that STs have improved, and that the QBs have improved. Now all that's left is the defense. Well done.

Epic spin and it aint gonna fly around here. You were the one who couldn't grasp that the point being made was specific to year one even though that was clearly stated...repeatedly. We haven't even played a game yet in year two so concluding we've improved is a premature bust at best, comical at worst. But enough of the lame play with words...if you can't grasp the concept of year one then just let it go. No one you're arguing with is ready to concede this team's play has improved markedly. No doubt the roster has but the play so far has not improved much if any at all. It's why fans of teams as lame as the Dolphins are puffing out their chests in anticipation of the matchup.

I can also tell ya living around Bengals fans that I have yet to hear one compliment the hire of Gruden nor lament his absence. Quite the opposite in fact.

 

[micks113]

Fan62
quote:
1) we all know Gruden was hired to develop RGIII

You are making this up Dr. spinfan

2) we all know he either lied or gave up very early

Making this up agains Dr. spinfan...strike two


3) we all know Gruden had the option of adapting or running his offense as designed = there's a disjunct somewhere between the observed events and what was HIGHLY likely to have been the context of the hiring in the first place

Not making this one up but completely wrong in conclusion as opposed to premise. I only remember two games where we were able to run Gruden's game plan the entire game. The other 14 games the game plan was thrown out the window because we got behind early and were done by the first quarter. His option were limited at best, but mostly had none to work with.

4) we all know Gruden seriously under-estimated the demands of being HC and was unable to allocate the time req'd to develop a player the team had already succeeding in screwing up. seasoned coach my rear end.

Making this up once again. What Gruden underestimated was the talent on the roster. Of course we know your agenda so we can at least understand the premise of this out of bounds spin doctoring.

5) we know Gruden compounded the error by not recognizing that he needed a dedicated QB coach.

Ok we give you a pass on this one. But take notice that Gruden's recent quotes indicate McVay was teaching the QB the ropes along with the offensive game plan and Gruden did acknowledge that maybe it was too much on McVay's plate. Feel free to spin this one a full 360.

 

[Smoot Point]

In 2013, the Cincinatti Bengals had HC Marvin Lewis, OC Jay Gruden, QB Coach Ken Zampese and RB Coach Hue Jackson. Andy Dalton had (by far) his best season. Jay Gruden was lauded and brought to Washington in order to work the same type of success on Robert Griffin III.

In 2014, the Washington Redskins had HC Jay Gruden, OC/QB Coach Sean McVay. Robert Griffin III had (by far) his worst season.

Robert Griffin III deserves a lot of criticism for his own part in this debacle... We can also blame Bruce Allen for the poor staffing, but Jay Gruden was complicit in squashing the development of Robert Griffin III. That's how Gruden will always be judged, and that's all the really needs to be said.

 

[CounterTrey]

We've been offseason/preseason monsters for a while McD.

NOTHING has improved on the field until the games count.

WE ALL want it to be so.

Yea one word pretty much kills all Pre-season hype arguments:

OSAKA

 

[McD5]

We've been offseason/preseason monsters for a while McD.

NOTHING has improved on the field until the games count.

WE ALL want it to be so.

The ST unit did improve when the games counted.

Saying we saw no improvement in year one isn't accurate.

Saying we didn't see enough improvement, or we want much more improvement makes sense. Saying we saw none is just some emotional poster lashing out.

 

[CounterTrey]

Fan62
quote:
1) we all know Gruden was hired to develop RGIII

You are making this up Dr. spinfan

London Fletcher has a bit more of an inside line than just about anyone on this board I'm betting. I guess he's spinning it too.

You're right though...we brought in the reputed "QB Guru" who had actually played the position himself to fix...the Defense, or was it something else? We brought in the QB guru because he had a stellar HC resume...oh wait. Yea you're right though, he WASN'T brought in to fix the ailing QB situation.

 

[Ax]

The ST unit did improve when the games counted.

Saying we saw no improvement in year one isn't accurate.

Saying we didn't see enough improvement, or we want much more improvement makes sense. Saying we saw none is just some emotional poster lashing out.

Tress Way was the only improvement. Forbath was already here.

Punt & kick coverage still sucked
Punt and kick returns still sucked

McD, you try to hard brother. You'll have every opportunity in the world to point out any real improvement going forward. But don't embellish every...single...thing upward in regards to gruden. Makes you look, desperate.

 

[fansince62]

fan, just curious ... if Robert hadn't gotten concussed, do you think Gruden should have started him Sunday?

yes.

do I think Griffin is ready? for this offense and what gruden wants? no.

do I think 13 plays in the Detroit game - especially with the pass blocking - was enough to make a decision after all the BS during the off-season about progression, working together, blah, blah, blah? no.

then again, I really am past caring about immediate outcomes.

btw...do you think griffin suffered a concussion? cuz this all sure has a weird feel to it.

 

[Om]

Couple more quickies here, because I see everyone's juices are flowing ...

Do those of you attributing RG3's demotion to a failure on Gruden's part allow for the possibility that it was RG3, and not Gruden, who "failed" to this point? Is it possible that neither Gruden, Cavanaugh, The Wonder Kid or even Gibbs himself could have coaxed a competent NFL QB out of the kid in 2015?

And also, because this matters ... we presumably all have heard suggested by now that rest of the players on the team are not only not upset about RG3's demotion (or Kirk's PROmotion), but behind it, because they know they can't do their jobs if the guy handling the ball on every snap can't do his? Regardless of whose "fault" it may be he can't? If it's true that's what the locker room is saying, what would those of you tearing Gruden new apertures have him do?

 

[fansince62]

"Fan62
quote:
1) we all know Gruden was hired to develop RGIII

You are making this up Dr. spinfan"

What planet are you living on? I understand that your mindset is that anyone who disagrees with you, by your own posts, is clueless....but this position clearly leads me to wonder whether or not experimental stages of your youth are suddenly manifesting as shadow synapses connecting to shape electrical paths never envisioned by your creator.

Believe as you chose. I know what one of the primary issues was at the time; I know what we were all talking about; there are signatures on this very website that reprise Grunden's promises of the moment. but.....Micks.....you da man!

 

[fansince62]

Couple more quickies here, because I see everyone's juices are flowing ...

Do those of you attributing RG3's demotion to a failure on Gruden's part allow for the possibility that it was RG3, and not Gruden, who "failed" to this point? Is it possible that neither Gruden, Cavanaugh, The Wonder Kid or even Gibbs himself could have coaxed a competent NFL QB out of the kid in 2015?

And also, because this matters ... we presumably all have heard suggested by now that rest of the players on the team are not only not upset about RG3's demotion (or Kirk's PROmotion), but behind it, because they know they can't do their jobs if the guy handling the ball on every snap can't do his? Regardless of whose "fault" it may be he can't? If it's true that's what the locker room is saying, what would those of you tearing Gruden new apertures have him do?

with due respect Sir...get it right. deliberately or not, you are offering a binary choice. and that is not what has been put forth wee4k after dreary week of this conversation. the pov expressed, from day 1, has been that griffin failed, but so has this team and so has this coach.

 

[Om]

yes.

do I think Griffin is ready? for this offense and what gruden wants? no.

do I think 13 plays in the Detroit game - especially with the pass blocking - was enough to make a decision after all the BS during the off-season about progression, working together, blah, blah, blah? no.

then again, I really am past caring about immediate outcomes.

On the "yes" ... please see my subsequent question about the locker room thing? Same answer?

He didn't make the decision based on 13 plays. Please tell me no one really thinks that?

btw...do you think griffin suffered a concussion? cuz this all sure has a weird feel to it.

No idea. The hit he took rolling left in the second series (I think it was?), where he got pancaked backward and his helmet hit the turf, didn't look fun. But I have no way of knowing. I THINK so, but that's based less on medical expertise that it is hoping that we're not looking at a situation where both team and independent doctors are flat out making stuff up. Because if they are, the NFL has far bigger problems to deal with than Goodell's alleged brains and the firmness Brady's balls.

 

[McD5]

Epic spin and it aint gonna fly around here. You were the one who couldn't grasp that the point being made was specific to year one even though that was clearly stated...repeatedly. We haven't even played a game yet in year two so concluding we've improved is a premature bust at best, comical at worst. But enough of the lame play with words...if you can't grasp the concept of year one then just let it go. No one you're arguing with is ready to concede this team's play has improved markedly. No doubt the roster has but the play so far has not improved much if any at all. It's why fans of teams as lame as the Dolphins are puffing out their chests in anticipation of the matchup.

I can also tell ya living around Bengals fans that I have yet to hear one compliment the hire of Gruden nor lament his absence. Quite the opposite in fact.

Do you hear any of them praising Hue Jackson?

 

[CounterTrey]

Couple more quickies here, because I see everyone's juices are flowing ...

Do those of you attributing RG3's demotion to a failure on Gruden's part allow for the possibility that it was RG3, and not Gruden, who "failed" to this point? Is it possible that neither Gruden, Cavanaugh, The Wonder Kid or even Gibbs himself could have coaxed a competent NFL QB out of the kid in 2015?

And also, because this matters ... we presumably all have heard suggested by now that rest of the players on the team are not only not upset about RG3's demotion (or Kirk's PROmotion), but behind it, because they know they can't do their jobs if the guy handling the ball on every snap can't do his? Regardless of whose "fault" it may be he can't? If it's true that's what the locker room is saying, what would those of you tearing Gruden new apertures have him do?

Sure that's possible but it doesn't jibe with all of the reports about his improved play and the fact that he was the set in stone starter (supposedly) from day one until the day he was concussed. It also discounts what he's already done for us. That is huge to me...2012 might as well have not happened as far as many of these arguments go.

 

[CounterTrey]

Do you hear any of them praising Hue Jackson?

Yes, actually a lot of Bengal fans were bummed when he left and have lamented his play calling and fiery motivational skills ever since. They laugh when Gruden is brought up.

 

[McD5]

Yes, actually a lot of Bengal fans were bummed when he left and have lamented his play calling and fiery motivational skills ever since. They laugh when Gruden is brought up.

They were bummed when Jay left? Hue is the OC that disappointed last season in Cincy.

 

[CounterTrey]

Sorry it was Raider fans that lamented play calling. Bengal fans missed his fire and the way he coached up the WR's. Johnson and Housmandzeda (sp?) tore it up during his tenure. This is HJ's second stint with the Bengals.