The Flaw in the Shanahan Offensive Scheme

[Oldfan]

...Why don't you give us your list of the Top 10 QB's in the NFL today, in order.

Cutler is #1, Rodgers #2, Stafford #3... I don't have the time to rank the others right now. I don't see the point anyway.

 

[Oldfan]

cutler is the best QB in the game right now? you dont even have Brees in your top 3.

I grade the QB, not the QB +Team. Drew Brees's performances are supported by a top notch scheme and an outstanding cast.

He's a very accurate passer, but he doesn't have the overall skill set to compare with the top three.

 

[Neophyte]

Cutler is #1, Rodgers #2, Stafford #3... I don't have the time to rank the others right now. I don't see the point anyway.

And your criteria for arriving at this list?

And the point was to see the list of the man who said Peyton wasn't talented when compared to other NFL QB's.

 

[Goaldeje]

I grade the QB, not the QB +Team. Drew Brees's performances are supported by a top notch scheme and an outstanding cast.

He's a very accurate passer, but he doesn't have the overall skill set to compare with the top three.

Really? Outside of Colston and Graham, does Brees have any elite playmakers? Henderson, Moore, Ingram et all are nice players, but not what I would call elite.

 

[Oldfan]

Really? Outside of Colston and Graham, does Brees have any elite playmakers? Henderson, Moore, Ingram et all are nice players, but not what I would call elite.

How many "elite" receivers do you think can coexist on one team?

The Saints receiving group is right there with Green Bay's.


http://www.nfl.com/teams/neworleanssaints/statistics?team=NO

 

[Ax]

Just think of the money Indy could have saved all these years. They could have had Grossman for a fraction of what Peyton cost, and won just as much.

 

[Oldfan]

the point is that Brees makes them better. not the other way around...

Let me be sure I understand you. You are saying that teamwork is a one-way street. Quarterbacks help receivers, but get nothing in return. Is that right?

Now, I always figured it was a two-way street. Good QBs help good receivers and are helped equally in return.

And then there's the scheme and playcalling which impact the performances of both the receivers and the QBs.

And then, there's the protection.

I thought that football was a team sport, not just a quarterback display.

 

[Oldfan]

Just think of the money Indy could have saved all these years. They could have had Grossman for a fraction of what Peyton cost, and won just as much.

I'm almost afraid to ask... what kind of logic did you use to reach that conclusion?

 

[Ax]

I'm almost afraid to ask... what kind of logic did you use to reach that conclusion?

Yours.

IMO, Peyton, in Shanny's scheme, would be a slight improvement over Rex.

I mean, if Peyton is only marginally better than Rex, in your "Scheme World", I'll assert that Rex would only be marginally worse in "Indy World", right?

 

[Oldfan]

Yours.

I mean, if Peyton is only marginally better than Rex, in your "Scheme World", I'll assert that Rex would only be marginally worse in "Indy World", right?

That would be a logical deduction on the premise that Scheme World and Indy World were identical. Since they obviously are not, the premise is false and your conclusion invalid.

 

[Ax]

That would be a logical deduction on the premise that Rex Grossman and Peyton Manning were identical, talent wise. Since they obviously are not, my premise is false and my conclusion invalid.

Fixed that for ya.

 

[Oldfan]

And your criteria for arriving at this list?

The QB has demonstrated the ability to run a disciplined offense. This is just a pass/fail test. I don't put a grade on it.

I grade the tangibles, as a scout might, what I can see the player do with his arm and his legs. The more he can do, the less supporting cast he needs to win a given football game. The more he can do, the greater the weapon he is for a smart OC to scheme for.

 

[servumtuum]

Uh, Oldfan, you're confusing me.

First you said this:

I grade the QB, not the QB +Team. Drew Brees's performances are supported by a top notch scheme and an outstanding cast.

He's a very accurate passer, but he doesn't have the overall skill set to compare with the top three.

Then you said this.

Let me be sure I understand you. You are saying that teamwork is a one-way street. Quarterbacks help receivers, but get nothing in return. Is that right?

Now, I always figured it was a two-way street. Good QBs help good receivers and are helped equally in return.

And then there's the scheme and playcalling which impact the performances of both the receivers and the QBs.

And then, there's the protection.

I thought that football was a team sport, not just a quarterback display.

My confusion results from you grading of Cutler. Are you stating that his skillset is being impeded by the rest of the Bears offense, OL, receivers, system/scheme? In other words, Cutler-if substituted for, say Rodgers or Brees, who are similarly "mobile" QBs, would do as well or better than they do with their respective teams?

I'm just trying to understand your position.

 

[Oldfan]

...My confusion results from you grading of Cutler. Are you stating that his skillset is being impeded by the rest of the Bears offense, OL, receivers, system/scheme? In other words, Cutler-if substituted for, say Rodgers or Brees, who are similarly "mobile" QBs, would do as well or better than they do with their respective teams?

If Jay Cutler was the QB of the Packers, his performance would be enhanced by the great support system. He would be the Bandwagon's Number One QB by a clear margin. If Aaron Rodgers played for the Bears, his performance would suffer from the weaker support. He would not be on anyone's top ten QB list except mine. On mine, he would still be number two.

 

[Goaldeje]

How many "elite" receivers do you think can coexist on one team?

The Saints receiving group is right there with Green Bay's.


http://www.nfl.com/teams/neworleanssaints/statistics?team=NO

Ummm, at least two. Jennings and Driver (not this year, 2 years ago), Austin and Bryant, Nicks and Cruz, Boldin and Fitzgerald, etc.

And I would submit that neither teams' WRs corp is that dominant. It's the QB, in both cases.

 

[fansince62]

Just think of the money Indy could have saved all these years. They could have had Grossman for a fraction of what Peyton cost, and won just as much.

or at least 5 games!

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Drew Brees is a top 3 QB in this league, and to say any differently is just plain wrong. His field vision is unparalleled, as is his accuracy.

He threw for almost 5500 yards with over 71% accuracy this season.

I don't care if your WR corps is Rice, Largeant and Monk with Antonio Gates at TE, that is damn impressive!

 

[Oldfan]

Drew Brees is a top 3 QB in this league, and to say any differently is just plain wrong. His field vision is unparalleled, as is his accuracy.

Accuracy is one o Drew Brees's strengths. But, do you really expect me to believe that you can grade QBs on their "field of vision?" That's such obvious hype.

He threw for almost 5500 yards with over 71% accuracy this season.

The length + height + width of a room = 100 feet. How wide is the room?

You can't answer the question because I gave you a useless number.

How good is Drew Brees? I can't answer the question from your stats because you gave me two useless numbers. You gave me performance stats that include values for the scheme, play calling and supporting cast.

 

[Ax]

Just curious Oldfan, as a professional talent evaluator for the NFL, have you ever been wrong with your analysis of a QB.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Accuracy is one o Drew Brees's strengths. But, do you really expect me to believe that you can grade QBs an their "field of vision?" That's obvious hype.

Yeah, I can. You can't? Its pretty simple stuff. Talk to Ryman, he knows his stuff. He can probably give you a good tutorial.

The length + height + width of a room = 100 feet. How wide is the room?

You can't answer the question because I gave you a useless number.

How good is Drew Brees? I can't answer the question from your stats because you gave me two useless numbers. You gave me performance stats that include values for the scheme, play calling and supporting cast.

Your analogy isn't even close to being complete, and is severely flawed. I would know the type of room and what it was used for to be even remotely comparable, giving me a pretty decent idea of what the width would be, to within 5 feet or so anyway.

Passing accuracy combined with yardage are useless numbers? No arguing with that logic.