The Flaw in the Shanahan Offensive Scheme

[Oldfan]

Om ~ I guess what I'm getting at is that you seem to imply in the OP that a guy traditionally (to broaden the definition back out) considered a "pocket passer" would be ill-fitted to the Shanahan offense. If I'm reading that right, would it follow that you don't think a Manning, Brady, even an Eli Manning---all guys I believe fit the "pocket passer" label, and would argue are exceptional at finding space and buying time---could make this offense as dynamic as a guy like Cutler?

Jay Cutler was born able to do things inside the pocket and outside the pocket that Brady and the Manning brothers will never be able to do.

But, we aren't ever going to agree on QBs, Amigo. We grade them on different standards.

IMO, Peyton, in Shanny's scheme, would be a slight improvement over Rex.

 

[Om]

Jay Cutler was born able to do things inside the pocket and outside the pocket that Brady and the Manning brothers will never be able to do.

But, we aren't ever going to agree on QBs, Amigo. We grade them on different standards.

IMO, Peyton, in Shanny's scheme, would be a slight improvement over Rex.

Peyton would be "a slight improvement over Rex"?

Yeah, I'd say we apply different standards.

 

[Oldfan]

One problem with this theory is, Rex Grossman runs the system very well. I don't think the system dictates he throw the ball to the other team. Or, fumble it every other time someone touches him. Granted, the roll outs aren't happening, but if not for the turnovers, and better play from the other 10 guys, they wouldn't be missed that much.

The boot actions aren't happening, the sacks, pressure and turnovers are. Otherwise, Rex is the perfect fit for this offense.

 

[Oldfan]

Peyton would be "a slight improvement over Rex"?

Yeah, I'd say we apply different standards.

The Bandwagon agrees with you.

 

[Neophyte]

I daresay with Peyton the boot actions wouldn't be necessary, Oldfan. He is so adept at reading the defense, aligning the protection and delivering on target to the right guy that you don't have to get him out of the pocket.

In fact, I think a pretty sound argument can be made that the Skins have a better running game and at least as good an offensive line right now as the Colts have had at any given point in Peyton's career. This offense, with Peyton under center, wins our division going away and challenges for a first round bye.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

Luck is the guy Shanny mentioned as a guy who could run his system, and he is pretty mobile and athletic. RG 3 has the potential to be another Cam newton, I still think the risk is too high though.

The true risk in shannys system is that you have find oline who can move their feet AND still pass pro

 

[Ax]

The boot actions aren't happening, the sacks, pressure and turnovers are. Otherwise, Rex is the perfect fit for this offense.

The system isn't causing the sacks, pressures, and turnovers.

 

[Ax]

The Bandwagon agrees with you.

So does everybody else, but you.

You win the Contrarion Cookie Award!!!

 

[GSF]

One problem with this theory is, Rex Grossman runs the system very well. I don't think the system dictates he throw the ball to the other team. Or, fumble it every other time someone touches him. Granted, the roll outs aren't happening, but if not for the turnovers, and better play from the other 10 guys, they wouldn't be missed that much.

That's what i was gonna say. Rex runs the offense quite well when he's not thowing pics. And this is with and incomplete oline. Would Cutler run it better? I'm sure he would, but I don't think you have to be tremendously moblie to suceed in this offense.

 

[Ax]

That's what i was gonna say. Rex runs the offense quite well when he's not thowing pics. And this is with and incomplete oline. Would Cutler run it better? I'm sure he would, but I don't think you have to be tremendously moblie to suceed in this offense.

Exactly. No question that a more mobile QB would open things up more with controlled roll outs, though they did rroooooll ole Rexy out a time or two, but better blocking, better route running, more accurate passing and cutting all turnovers in half would be just as effective, if not more.

And for the record, NOBODY thinks Rex is a better QB than Cutler.

Except maybe Rex.

 

[Neophyte]

I think it is worth noting that Kyle's offense is NOT the same as Mike's offense. One may have it's roots in the other but Kyle plans and calls a very different game from what his Dad did.

You can't use the name "Shanahan offense" interchangeably for the two things anymore than you can call what Gibbs ran in Washington the Air Coryell offense. Similar - yeah. The same - hardly.

 

[Om]

They rolled Rex out early in the season, but my impression was that his combination of lumberfoot and scatterarm---along with the ineffective route-running, backside blocking, etc.---forced the Shans to back off.

That said, Rex is an extreme example of a non-mobile QB. Shanahan was able to make the rollout game work with the likes of Jake Plummer and Brian Griese. I'm confident he could make it work with any accurate passing QB who can at least get out of his own way.

 

[Ax]

They rolled Rex out early in the season, but my impression was that his combination of lumberfoot and scatterarm

Hey baby, that's just Rex being Rex.

Don't hate the playa, hate the...




...never mind.

Hate the playa.

 

[Oldfan]

So does everybody else, but you.

Sounds like an assertion of the Bandwagon Fallacy

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/bandwagon.html

You win the Contrarion Cookie Award!!!

I appreciate that. You could get your share if you think before you jump on bandwagons.

 

[Oldfan]

I daresay with Peyton the boot actions wouldn't be necessary, Oldfan. He is so adept at reading the defense, aligning the protection and delivering on target to the right guy that you don't have to get him out of the pocket.

In fact, I think a pretty sound argument can be made that the Skins have a better running game and at least as good an offensive line right now as the Colts have had at any given point in Peyton's career. This offense, with Peyton under center, wins our division going away and challenges for a first round bye.

We don't agree at all on Peyton's talent.

You are hyping talent that can't be seen because it's pretty obvious that what can be seen isn't all that good compared to other NFL quarterbacks.

The intangibles are important, but you can't see and grade them any more than I can.

 

[fansince62]

I guess what I'm getting at is that you seem to imply in the OP that a guy traditionally (to broaden the definition back out) considered a "pocket passer" would be ill-fitted to the Shanahan offense. If I'm reading that right, would it follow that you don't think a Manning, Brady, even an Eli Manning---all guys I believe fit the "pocket passer" label, and would argue are exceptional at finding space and buying time---could make this offense as dynamic as a guy like Cutler?

Just so no one thinks I'm sandbagging here....my ideal QB for today's NFL is a guy like Brees. He can stand in the pocket and go downfield, he feels the rush and can slide to buy the extra second, he can break out and run when necessary, and most importantly, he processes information and gets the ball out, accurately, as fast as anyone I can recall.

I haven't seen enough of Luck and RGIII to form an educated opinion on which would be the better fit in this system or have the greater upside overall....but I do feel pretty certain that Luck, certainly the less "athletic" of the two, would be fully capable of running the rollout plays in this offense. Once there, being a weapon outside the pocket becomes about downfield vision, reading coverages, accuracy and arm strength.

I don't care if my QB is capable of breaking off a 50 yard run--though obviously all things being equal it's an attractive quality. All I do ask in that regard is the ability to recognize and take the occasional 3rd-down coversion run up to 10-15 yards at crucial times. I'm far more interested in his ability to move behind the line of scrimmage when called upon, and then accurately deliver the ball when an option presents itself or get rid of it when it does not.

OM...I think you're missing part of the argument. Old is also stating the o-line is built to fit the QB style. HIs contention...which was certainly true in the past...but I don't know if it holds currently....is that a line built to sustain a quick hitting ZBS scheme is not well suited to a staked out, defend the pocket style of pass protection. He's claiming that the type of athlete who fits the ZBS necessarily is the wrong person for a defend the pocket sort of QB....that ZBS lends itself more to a moving pocket/mobile QB type.

As sated, I don't happen to have enough coaching insight to know...though I will agree that this offense...so far...does not seem able to just punch it in in the endzone (as Old notes) and it has had issues protecting Rex.

 

[Neophyte]

We don't agree at all on Peyton's talent.

You are hyping talent that can't be seen because it's pretty obvious that what can be seen isn't all that good compared to other NFL quarterbacks.

The intangibles are important, but you can't see and grade them any more than I can.

So, you don't think Peyton is that good. Got it.

Why don't you give us your list of the Top 10 QB's in the NFL today, in order.

 

[fansince62]

I think it is worth noting that Kyle's offense is NOT the same as Mike's offense. One may have it's roots in the other but Kyle plans and calls a very different game from what his Dad did.

You can't use the name "Shanahan offense" interchangeably for the two things anymore than you can call what Gibbs ran in Washington the Air Coryell offense. Similar - yeah. The same - hardly.

good point Neo. can you amplify?

 

[Oldfan]

Luck is the guy Shanny mentioned as a guy who could run his system, and he is pretty mobile and athletic. RG 3 has the potential to be another Cam newton, I still think the risk is too high though.

The true risk in shannys system is that you have find oline who can move their feet AND still pass pro

I've only seen Luck in a couple of games. I was very impressed with his touch and accuracy, but not blown away by his mobility or athleticism.

He played with a very strong support cast, and most games were lopsided wins against weak opponents, so I tend to hold back on the enthusiasm in a situation like that.

 

[Neophyte]

good point Neo. can you amplify?

I think the basic and most obvious difference is the emphasis on the run game vs the pass. In Denver, Mike's offense was a run first offense. While he is from the Walsh coaching tree and uses portions of the Walsh West Coast Offense, he set everything up with the run first which was very different from Walsh. In fact, it was nearly a marriage of Walsh and Gibbs.

Kyle definitely seems to work pass first (like much of the current league, btw). The elements of the offense are a lot alike though. Both use the ZBS when running the ball, both use boots to get the QB out of the pocket, both use the TE more than Walsh did. However, Kyle seems perfectly happy reverse the emphasis and use the pass to set up the run, or abandon the run completely at times. He also gives the receivers more freedom to improv depending on the defense (that from a Washington Post article about the offense two years ago when he was hired).

I think Kyle's method is fine when you have superior personnel who can dictate to the defense (see Johnson, Andre and Schaub, Matt) but what his Dad built in Denver works with less talent, except perhaps at the QB position where the player needs to be able to throw on the run, as noted by Oldfan.